Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

walus

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Is that guy suggesting total suicide deaths per year in the US is circa 8000?

Seem to conflict with below

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml



It also doesn’t correlate with below

Economic Research says that there is a 3.6% increase in deaths from opioid use for every 1% increase of unemployment rate in US. So if the US unemployment reaches 20% it will result in roughly 30k form opioid use. If you add other drug use, alcohol use, suicide (1.1% for every 1% of unemployment) and domestic violence they say that could go to 50k or more of secondary deaths from a lockdown that stalled the economy.

SheepsClothing

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/almost-150-000-fewer-people-attended-cancer-screening-services-in-first-half-of-year-1.4401585

Do you disagree with this article? Please explain why.

Quoting the article:

"Almost 150,000 fewer people have attended Ireland’s main cancer screening services in the first half of the year due to a reduction in non-Covid related care, the Irish Hospital Consultants Association (ICHA) has claimed."

Do you think there would be more or less non-Covid care, had we allowed the virus to spread more freely within the community? The answer should be obvious to anyone, if they take 3 seconds to think about it.

hynesie08

PTH2009 wrote: »

Health will always come before the Economy

If that's the case how come they've gone against nphets advice twice since September? I mean the great and powerful tony must be obeyed at all costs right?

SheepsClothing

polesheep wrote: »

What we can say with certainty is, that if we had not stopped testing for cancer in favour of treating Covid, then we would have detected more cancers and as a consequence, saved the lives of people who will now die from cancer.

So your solution to a reduction in cancer screening was..... to not treat Covid patients......?

polesheep

SheepsClothing wrote: »

Quoting the article:

"Almost 150,000 fewer people have attended Ireland’s main cancer screening services in the first half of the year due to a reduction in non-Covid related care, the Irish Hospital Consultants Association (ICHA) has claimed."

Do you think there would be more or less non-Covid care, had we allowed the virus to spread more freely within the community? The answer should be obvious to anyone, if they take 3 seconds to think about it.

There was less non-Covid care because we focussed all of our efforts on Covid care. It was deemed more important to try to save the lives of Covid patients than discover cancers in cancer patients.

PTH2009

PTH2009 wrote: »

Health will always come before the Economy

Unfortunately, there is no health service without the economy. All the empty platitudes in the world won't change that fact.

Health vs. Economy is a distinction without a difference. They are mutually dependent.

polesheep

SheepsClothing wrote: »

So your solution to a reduction in cancer screening was..... to not treat Covid patients......?

And your solution was to prioritise Covid patients over cancer screeniing.

FintanMcluskey

hynesie08 wrote: »

If that's the case how come they've gone against nphets advice twice since September? I mean the great and powerful tony must be obeyed at all costs right?

Because the economy has been shut for almost twice as long as the rest of Europe up to that point.

It didn’t matter though because Tony got his desire last October and shut the economy again. 48 hours after his colleagues said level 3 was more than sufficient

Kunta Kinte

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Because the economy has been shut for almost twice as long as the rest of Europe up to that point.

It didn’t matter in October though because Tony got his desire last October and shut the economy again. 48 hours after his colleagues said level 3 was more than sufficient

Obviously his colleagues were mistaken.

PTH2009

PTH2009 wrote: »

Health will always come before the Economy

Tell that to people dying of preventable diseases for lack of money all over the world .... and our health service is tremendously expensive by international standards, even before the extra €4 billion they got this year on top of the normal €18 billion they get every year. Where do you think that money comes from? What will our health service look like if that is cut back to say €10 billion?

SheepsClothing

SheepsClothing wrote: »

Quoting the article:

"Almost 150,000 fewer people have attended Ireland’s main cancer screening services in the first half of the year due to a reduction in non-Covid related care, the Irish Hospital Consultants Association (ICHA) has claimed."

Do you think there would be more or less non-Covid care, had we allowed the virus to spread more freely within the community? The answer should be obvious to anyone, if they take 3 seconds to think about it.

I think there would be more non-covid care if we didn't shut down non-covid care.

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Because the economy has been shut for almost twice as long as the rest of Europe up to that point.

It didn’t matter in October though because Tony got his desire last October and shut the economy again. 48 hours after his colleagues said level 3 was more than sufficient

Thank God he did, or else the UK strain would have become more dominant faster here.

You just need to take a look at the UK to see how damaging that would have been.

65,000+ deaths reported since November 1st.

polesheep

polesheep wrote: »

And your solution was to prioritise Covid patients over cancer screeniing.

Just want to note that this isn't what happened. It's not like the people who normally take the scans and run the screening clinics were drafted in to deal with wards upon wards and temporary hospitals full of covid patients. The services were shut down as part of the wider lockdown.

No covid patient received more care because screening was suspended.

OwenM

PTH2009 wrote: »

Health will always come before the Economy

That's a simplistic trite observation and it's also wrong. What kind of health system do you think we will have without an economy?

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Because the economy has been shut for almost twice as long as the rest of Europe up to that point.

It didn’t matter in October though because Tony got his desire last October and shut the economy again. 48 hours after his colleagues said level 3 was more than sufficient

What makes it worse is that outside Dublin at the time, the virus was suppressed to low or even zero levels for months. Tony in his wisdom decided to punish everyone because Dublin was a problem. And it was Tony - NPHET were NOT planning to do that.

If he had locked down Dublin for a month like NPHET had done with Kildare, Laois and Offaly, and SHOWN that it worked, it would have been a wake up call, and also an incentive to do better. It could have been a model for the whole world.

The wisdom of having him come back to such a key role with his wife's health in such jeopardy was to say the least, questionable.

polesheep

polesheep wrote: »

And your solution was to prioritise Covid patients over cancer screeniing.

Deleted User wrote: »

Just want to note that this isn't what happened. It's not like the people who normally take the scans and run the screening clinics were drafted in to deal with wards upon wards and temporary hospitals full of covid patients. The services were shut down as part of the wider lockdown.

No covid patient received more care because screening was suspended.

Not true Cymro. I know for a fact that endoscopy units were closed so that the staff could be moved to care for Covid patients and in some instances so that the endoscopy unit itself could be turned into a Covid ward. As a result bowel cancer screening was halted.

walus

OwenM wrote: »

That's a simplistic trite observation and it's also wrong. What kind of health system do you think we will have without an economy?

True. We had an economy, and look what kind of health system we have. Still inadequate to the needs of the population.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Just want to note that this isn't what happened. It's not like the people who normally take the scans and run the screening clinics were drafted in to deal with wards upon wards and temporary hospitals full of covid patients.

I don't think anyone suggested that did they?

But if people are only looking for negatives they will only find negatives.

Another factor to consider is that during the pause, BreastCheck services were redeployed to assist the acute hospitals in managing their waiting lists of women who had symptoms.

This meant that urgent patients who had symptoms were seen quicker, with the aim of improving the outcome of any
diagnosis.

Symptomatic women have a significantly higher rate of cancer, and more time-dependent diagnosis, than healthy screened population.

This means that the outcomes for symptomatic women
who came forward for medical care may have been improved during the pause in screening.

Hector Savage

Windmill100000 wrote: »

It's a very informative article, all of it, not just the bit you highlighted though.

Like this bit

"There is no doubt that within Scandinavia, Sweden has suffered more than the lion’s share of Covid-19, with more than 11,000 lives lost and the number of people infected running at over half a million.

In Finland and Norway where strict lockdown measures were enforced and borders closed off since early last year, the total numbers of deaths reported to date from Covid-19 are 655 and 550 respectively."

I suppose ultimately for many it comes down to what matters: more life and death, or the economy.

You see you are reporting on deaths labelled with covid.

Look at the excess death (all deaths not just the bad ones that are only covid apparently) rate of Norway v excess death rate of Sweden for a more accurate answer.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

Thank God he did, or else the UK strain would have become more dominant faster here.

You just need to take a look at the UK to see how damaging that would have been.

65,000+ deaths reported since November 1st.

The UK has a higher obesity rate, an older population, many more urban centers, four times our population density, and a much higher percentage BAME population. But sure go off about how your one pet strategy would have made all the difference.

polesheep

Boggles wrote: »

I don't think anyone suggested that did they?

But if people are only looking for negatives they will only find negatives.

It did happen, as I pointed out above. I'm not looking for negatives btw, just pointing out that choices were made in the provision of care. It's something that may yet play out when this is all over.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

The UK has a higher obesity rate, an older population, many more urban centers, four times our population density, and a much higher percentage BAME population. But sure go off about how your one pet strategy would have made all the difference.

And a far higher rate of the new strain.

Population density is an important factor, but how a population acts is just as important.

Wasn't parts of Mayo the most infected regions in Europe during January.

polesheep

polesheep wrote: »

Not true Cymro. I know for a fact that endoscopy units were closed so that the staff could be moved to care for Covid patients and in some instances so that the endoscopy unit itself could be turned into a Covid ward. As a result bowel cancer screening was halted.

I stand corrected on that front, then. If that is the case across the country and with all cancer screening services, it's hard to see how it could have been avoided, since avoiding it would have involved denying critical care to cancer patients.

It does seem unlikely for cervical, prostate, breast etc. checks though.

polesheep

Deleted User wrote: »

I stand corrected on that front, then. If that is the case across the country and with all cancer screening services, it's hard to see how it could have been avoided, since avoiding it would have involved denying critical care to cancer patients.

It does seem unlikely for cervical, prostate, breast etc. checks though.

Possibly, I wouldn't know tbh. But it is certain that choices were made to prioritise Covid patients and possibly not by doctors but by administrators.

OwenM

Boggles wrote: »

And a far higher rate of the new strain.

Population density is an important factor, but how a population acts is just as important.

Wasn't parts of Mayo the most infected regions in Europe during January.

There's a pathological obsession with the 'new strain', there are several new strains and if a strain is more infectious then it's on the way here and everywhere else eventually.

Zero-Covid proponents might stick their heads up now and go "We'll actually.." but were tired of those arguments, Zero-Covid is a busted flush, Perth locked 2 million people down last week because of 1 (one) case and there wasn't a several day debate and lead in like you get here. Covid is endemic.

Windmill100000

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Sooner or later, the penny will drop for many here, that those things are not mutually exclusive.

What sort of health service will this country provide when the exchequer haemorrhage’s its last funds in a few months time?

The irony is if you want to preserve life at all costs, you will eventually only afford a sub Saharan Africa type health service?

So you keep saying, and yet we have gone into a third level 5 and people in the main are sticking to the rules again and again. Maybe they just dont see the world and covid through your eyes.
I'm glad for that, whatever the payback is. And yes, we all knew it was coming from the first lockdown. The penny on that dropped a long time ago. There is going to be a financial cost in every country to some degree.

Loafing Oaf

polesheep wrote: »

Possibly, I wouldn't know tbh. But it is certain that choices were made to prioritise Covid patients

Because those patients were in imminent danger of dying, in a way that most cancer sufferers aren't.

FintanMcluskey

Windmill100000 wrote: »

So you keep saying, and yet we have gone into a third level 5 and people in the main are sticking to the rules again and again. Maybe they just dont see the world and covid through your eyes.
I'm glad for that, whatever the payback is. And yes, we all knew it was coming from the first lockdown. The penny on that dropped a long time ago. There is going to be a financial cost in every country to some degree.

That’s not the point I made. You are waffling about level 5 adherence.

Do you agree the quality of the healthcare service is related to the economy?

Remembering the vaccine programme in your answer & how Irish GP’s are getting €60 per jab while their NI & UK counterparts are getting £12 per jab.

Boggles

OwenM wrote: »

Covid is endemic.

You should publish.

OwenM

Boggles wrote: »

You should publish.

Too late, the WSJ and WHO beat me to it.