16 family members given vaccine

is_that_so

steddyeddy wrote: »

The Coombe are having an independent review and removing the master who gave his kids the vaccine from the vaccination procedures.

A review is good but the review should also be with the HSE that didn't even have an IT platform in place for vaccinations.

You can't blame IT for human decision making, especially as other hospitals were in the same boat and don't need a review.

astrofool

steddyeddy wrote: »

The Coombe are having an independent review and removing the master who gave his kids the vaccine from the vaccination procedures.

A review is good but the review should also be with the HSE that didn't even have an IT platform in place for vaccinations.

I think that's the best solution.
a) they did the right thing by not wasting vaccine, even if it was to people in the lower groups
b) the master should have ensured that their own family did not benefit from excess vaccine, even if those final 2 doses end up going to waste

steddyeddy

is_that_so wrote: »

You can't blame IT for human decision making, especially as other hospitals were in the same boat and don't need a review.

No I agree but I think it also should have been in place before the vaccination rollout. Like most countries. We should have also have followed the NHS and US system whereby care homes are on alert if there's extra vaccine. It's been known that there's more doses than previously thought since the 17th of December. The idea that they found out on the day is either a lie or incompetence.

hynesie08

astrofool wrote: »

I think that's the best solution.
a) they did the right thing by not wasting vaccine, even if it was to people in the lower groups
b) the master should have ensured that their own family did not benefit from excess vaccine, even if those final 2 doses end up going to waste

That is ridiculous, there is no situation where viable vaccines are going in the bin.

steddyeddy wrote: »

No I agree but I think it also should have been in place before the vaccination rollout. Like most countries. We should have also have followed the NHS and US system whereby care homes are on alert if there's extra vaccine. It's been known that there's more doses than previously thought since the 17th of December. The idea that they found out on the day is either a lie or incompetence.

Which care home? Which residents of said care home? Should there be a staff nurse and driver on 24/7 duty at every care home in the country in case a spare vaccine becomes available? Isn't that completely pointless since nursing homes are being mass vaccinated?

Russman

steddyeddy wrote: »

No I agree but I think it also should have been in place before the vaccination rollout. Like most countries. We should have also have followed the NHS and US system whereby care homes are on alert if there's extra vaccine. It's been known that there's more doses than previously thought since the 17th of December. The idea that they found out on the day is either a lie or incompetence.

I know I'm worse for continuing to comment on this non story but hey, there ya go:)

There should have been an IT system in place before vaccination but there wasn't. Saying there should have been is completely and utterly irrelevant to this case. That's a HSE failing, no question, but the Coombe were dealing with the implications of that. Unless anyone is suggesting they should not have started jabbing until a system was up and running, which is a whole other level of stupid.

EMA only approved getting 6 doses from the vial around the time this incident happened and they would have had no way of knowing just how many extra they might or might not have.

Between the hospital and the HSE, they got an additional 104 people to vaccinate, at short notice, leaving them with 16 spare. No, he obviously probably shouldn't have jabbed his kids, but nobody has suggested what he should have done at the time. Suggesting what system should have been in place doesn't answer what he should have done at 9.30pm on that Friday night.

How long a backup list do you think they should have had ?

RandomViewer

Ski trip sorted?

astrofool

hynesie08 wrote: »

That is ridiculous, there is no situation where viable vaccines are going in the bin.

I agree, it's possible that the 2 family members were literally the only 2 people around that could get the vaccine, and if that was the case, the Master should quite quickly be able to show that even basic attempts were made to find others (they found 104, and then a further 14 over 70's), but given his apology, that doesn't seem to have been the case. In a position of power, you sometimes have to actively show that you are not abusing that power, even if it is otherwise the rational choice.

steddyeddy

hynesie08 wrote: »

Which care home? Which residents of said care home? Should there be a staff nurse and driver on 24/7 duty at every care home in the country in case a spare vaccine becomes available? Isn't that completely pointless since nursing homes are being mass vaccinated?

Good questions H! These are all questions that are routinely asked pre-vaccine rollout in developed countries.

Hotblack Desiato

So obviously you've no answers then.

YFlyer

What does 'non-staff member' mean?

steddyeddy

Russman wrote: »

There should have been an IT system in place before vaccination but there wasn't. Saying there should have been is completely and utterly irrelevant to this case. That's a HSE failing, no question, but the Coombe were dealing with the implications of that. Unless anyone is suggesting they should not have started jabbing until a system was up and running, which is a whole other level of stupid.

Actually no Russ, people are saying there should have been a system in place prior to vaccination, not the other way around.

I think it's completely relevant seeing as the HSE's alleged lack of preparation in this case is central to the defence of the Coombe Hospital.

EMA only approved getting 6 doses from the vial around the time this incident happened and they would have had no way of knowing just how many extra they might or might not have.

Given the seriousness of the issue I'm calling this out as absolute BS. There was notification that there might be extra doses from December the 17th. Yes they didn't know if they were authorised to use until the 8th but they know it was being considered at least a week before that as it had been in other countries.

To say that it was OK for them not to have accounted for the fact there "might" be extra doses available as there was in every single country that rolled out vaccines isn't living in reality!

Between the hospital and the HSE, they got an additional 104 people to vaccinate, at short notice, leaving them with 16 spare. No, he obviously probably shouldn't have jabbed his kids, but nobody has suggested what he should have done at the time. Suggesting what system should have been in place doesn't answer what he should have done at 9.30pm on that Friday night.

Glad we agree to this.

Where we differ is the fact that you think there's no possibility that anyone higher priority than his two kids weren't available. The odds of that being true are ludicrously small.

How long a backup list do you think they should have had ?

Not quite as long as the back up lists they have in the NHS and US obviously but long enough to cover the 20% extra doses every other medical agency was reporting.

steddyeddy

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So obviously you've no answers then.

You mean the fact that I haven't designed a list of nearby higher priorities is indicative of the fact that this couldn't have been done?

I would say the fact that other countries have asked such questions and successfully answered and implemented them is indicative of the fact it can be done.

steddyeddy

astrofool wrote: »

I agree, it's possible that the 2 family members were literally the only 2 people around that could get the vaccine, and if that was the case, the Master should quite quickly be able to show that even basic attempts were made to find others (they found 104, and then a further 14 over 70's), but given his apology, that doesn't seem to have been the case. In a position of power, you sometimes have to actively show that you are not abusing that power, even if it is otherwise the rational choice.

I think people aren't getting this because of ignorance.

It's seen as extremely bad in medical circles to prioritise medical treatment or medicine to a family member over higher priority patients.

You would have to be stupid to think his two sons were the highest priority available.

YFlyer

TheChizler wrote: »

It can't be transported when made up, and you can't bring sick people from another hospital into a maternity hospital.

Why can't it be transported?

YFlyer

astrofool wrote: »

Once formulated, the vaccine can't travel, there was a case in Germany where transport up a stairs left it unusable.
.

Do you have that article please?

Russman

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually no Russ, people are saying there should have been a system in place prior to vaccination, not the other way around.

I think it's completely relevant seeing as the HSE's alleged lack of preparation in this case is central to the defence of the Coombe Hospital.





Given the seriousness of the issue I'm calling this out as absolute BS. There was notification that there might be extra doses from December the 17th. Yes they didn't know if they were authorised to use until the 8th but they know it was being considered at least a week before that as it had been in other countries.

To say that it was OK for them not to have accounted for the fact there "might" be extra doses available as there was in every single country that rolled out vaccines isn't living in reality!




Glad we agree to this.

Where we differ is the fact that you think there's no possibility that anyone higher priority than his two kids weren't available. The odds of that being true are ludicrously small.



Not quite as long as the back up lists they have in the NHS and US obviously but long enough to cover the 20% extra doses every other medical agency was reporting.

I agree with an awful lot of what you’re saying, no question the HSE should have had a system in place months ago, it’s not like the vaccines were a surprise. You’ll get no argument from me on HSE incompetence or bureaucracy.
If the Coombe hadn’t contacted the HSE about the issue and hadn’t found 104 extra peopl, plus another 14, before going to his kids, I’d probably agree 100% with you. I just think in this particular case (if the facts are as reported), it was a very unfortunate set of circumstances and timing that arose magnified by a silly decision to jab his kids. Hindsight is great and there’s a system in place now, but on that Friday night, fresh into the rollout, I’m happy to accept it was a silly decision for optics, made with the right motives, rather than any kind of corruption.

Bass Reeves

YFlyer wrote: »

Do you have that article please?

YFlyer wrote: »

Why can't it be transported?

Read back through the thread it has been dealt with multiple time just like most of the BS that is coming up hete

plodder

YFlyer wrote: »

Why can't it be transported?

It's actually supposed to be transported fully frozen. The EMA, Pfizer and CDC public documentation all says or strongly implies this, but there presumably has been some derogation which allows for unreconstituted thawed vaccines to be transported carefully. But, I haven't found any official doc that says this. It stands to reason that after dilution, the vaccine would be even more fragile. But, I haven't found an authoritative source for that either.

Bass Reeves

steddyeddy wrote: »

Given the seriousness of the issue I'm calling this out as absolute BS. There was notification that there might be extra doses from December the 17th. Yes they didn't know if they were authorised to use until the 8th but they know it was being considered at least a week before that as it had been in other countries.

I calling this out as BS. The WHO only this week updated the information that there was more doses in the vials than 5. Even now they only indicate 6. There may be 7 if really well administrated.
This article from the UK who were about three weeks into there process seems to indicate that doctors were binning control be extra doses in the UK. This did not happen here because the people administrating the vaccine showed they could think for themselves.

steddyeddy

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I calling this out as BS. The WHO only this week updated the information that there was more doses in the vials than 5. Even now they only indicate 6. There may be 7 if really well administrated.
This article from the UK who were about three weeks into there process seems to indicate that doctors were binning control be extra doses in the UK. This did not happen here because the people administrating the vaccine showed they could think for themselves.

On the 16th of December the FDA stated that there's 6 doses per vial. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/17/pfizer-vaccine-fda-says-extra-doses-in-vials-can-be-used-potentially-expanding-us-supply

TheChizler

YFlyer wrote: »

Why can't it be transported?

It's very sensitive to shock, if it's shaken it must be discarded.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/downloads/prep-and-admin-summary.pdf

TheChizler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I calling this out as BS. The WHO only this week updated the information that there was more doses in the vials than 5. Even now they only indicate 6. There may be 7 if really well administrated.

Guidance from the HSE on the 14th says up to 7.
https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/hcpinfo/covid19vaccineinfo4hps/clinicalguidance.pdf

Edit: not sure who's point I aught to be responding to I just thought the document was interesting!

Bass Reeves

steddyeddy wrote: »

On the 16th of December the FDA stated that there's 6 doses per vial. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/17/pfizer-vaccine-fda-says-extra-doses-in-vials-can-be-used-potentially-expanding-us-supply

Did they notify the HSE and the Coombe

Bass Reeves

TheChizler wrote: »

Guidance from the HSE on the 14th says up to 7.
https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/immunisation/hcpinfo/covid19vaccineinfo4hps/clinicalguidance.pdf

Edit: not sure who's point I aught to be responding to I just thought the document was interesting!

And the Coombe was vaccinated on the 8th AFAIK.

steddyeddy

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Did they notify the HSE and the Coombe

Are you asking me were medical staff aware there could be extra doses?

Bass Reeves

plodder wrote: »

It's actually supposed to be transported fully frozen. The EMA, Pfizer and CDC public documentation all says or strongly implies this, but there presumably has been some derogation which allows for unreconstituted thawed vaccines to be transported carefully. But, I haven't found any official doc that says this. It stands to reason that after dilution, the vaccine would be even more fragile. But, I haven't found an authoritative source for that either.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-vaccine-how-exactly-does-the-cold-supply-chain-work-12149118

Step 4 here states it can be transported to satellite centers such as nursing homes thawed

hynesie08

steddyeddy wrote: »

Are you asking me were medical staff aware there could be extra doses?

Do FDA regulations apply to maternity hospitals in Crumlin?

steddyeddy

hynesie08 wrote: »

Do FDA regulations apply to maternity hospitals in Crumlin?

No but medical reports worldwide are monitored by Coombe hospital. Thus the certainty of extra doses becomes apparent and unavoidable.

Bass Reeves

steddyeddy wrote: »

Are you asking me were medical staff aware there could be extra doses?

The Coombe would have notified the HSE about the number of people they had to be vaccinated not the number of vials they required. The HSE vaccine administration management issued the number of vials to the Coombe hospital.

They would have arrived that morning. They are now on a time watch process. Vials are not taken out of the cold box one at a time you take out multiples and reconstitute them and ideally store them in another fridge. Even using that fridge you remove mini batches. This is to reduce the number of time fridge's are open to maintain vial temperature as the product is temperature sensitive.

At some stage the vaccination team realized they had more doses than expected. They contacted the HSE who had no return process in place. It was up to them to devise a process from there.

Now will you tell me WTF has a publication of there being extra doses in vials got to do with where the Coombe team found themselves especially when it was published in another country which they may or may not be aware of

iamwhoiam

steddyeddy wrote: »

No but medical reports worldwide are monitored by Crumlin hospital. Thus the certainty of extra doses becomes apparent and unavoidable.

Why are you mentioning Crumlin hospital ?