Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

cml387

The DUP opposed the GFA, and presumably the people who elected them agreed with that stance, so I don't see how they are failing to represent their voters.

In the end they did enter government with SF so that was a compromise (and maybe against the wishes of those who voted for them).

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041786#Comment_119041786

Was it? Or just obedience to diktat from HMG?

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041786#Comment_119041786

I just don't see how the DUP, which declares itself to be democratic, can then refuse to participate in government either by holding their nose and being a reluctant coalition partner with SF or in opposition which I understand it could technically do if it changed its designation from Unionist to Other within the allowed 7 days. Everyone would know that the DUP are still a unionist party but they could go into opposition by re-designating as Other and let those who do want to fulfil the mandate given to them by the election get on with it. That would see the UUP as the largest Unionist (designated) party and Doug Beattie as DFM etc etc whilst at the same time allowing the DUP to retain it's stance that it won't go into govt until the NIP is ripped up or whatever unicorn dream it is they are chasing this time.

But no, the DUP don't aren't just refusing to go into Govt until the NIP is torn up (which you rightly say may well reflect the mandate of their voters) but they are preventing the other 75% of MLA's (or thereabouts) who are prepared to get the NI Govt back up and running from doing so. That's plain old fashioned unionist blackmail and exceptionalism where they think their minority support base trumps the majority.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041912#Comment_119041912

Usually anyone claiming to be Democratic, People's or worst of all People's Democratic is dodgy as fek.

"People's Democratic Republics of" should be avoided like the plague.

Enzokk

Germany is in no mood to renegotiate the NIP,

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1524007286771003393?s=20&t=S730cUkYSKhk_OansIf8Mg

The NIP gives the DUP cover, but eventually the road is going to run out for them. Truth is they were never going to get a Brexit that worked and they are fundamentally opposed to working with Nationalists. They only went into previous governments as they were the largest party so had claim to the FM job title. Now that they have lost that title they are throwing their toys out of the pram.

If Sammy Wilson goes on for an interview and harps on about consent of the GFA, maybe ask him where was the consent when it came to Brexit? I know he will have an answer prepared but it will just show him for the fool he is and the stance of the DUP.

10000maniacs

Johnson is on shaky ground. The EU are going to apply WTO tariffs on them.

Johnson does not have any valid grounds for suspension and triggering of Article 16.

The majority of the people of NI want the protocol gone? No

Majority of elected assembly members want the protocol gone? No

Business, farming and transport in NI want the protocol gone? No

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041970#Comment_119041970

Sammy Wilson would be an embarrassment to any normal political party and let nowhere near a TV

schmoo2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119038168#Comment_119038168

If the UK wanted to make a move they might start by imposing import tariffs on the goods flooding into the UK from the EU?

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119042141#Comment_119042141

They'd have to be able to check them first. They're not shipping these checks to do the EU a favour.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/28/jacob-rees-mogg-delay-post-brexit-eu-fresh-food-checks-fourth-time

pixelburp

Statement from the EU, throwing us under the bus, apparently. The last line can't make it any clearer: you made a deal, it's an international agreement, the Protocol is part of that deal, end of.

But no, no. Any minute now the EU is going to push Ireland out of the Single Market cos soemthing something France and Germany.

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041970#Comment_119041970

Nothing related to Brexit, whether the initial referendum or the subsequent WA (including NIP) & TCA, are devolved matters requiring consent (simple majority in Wales and Scotland or cross community in NI), they are matters which are exclusively reserved for the Westminster government, hence the simple majority won the day in the Referendum and the Westminster Govt enters into FTA's and similar as a routine matter of business which binds all "countries" of the UK.

This is a very inconvenient fact for the DUP but a fact nonetheless - https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/northern-ireland-protocol-consent-mechanism

In an effort to assuage Unionists (or in reality in a classic bait and switch move) the UK Govt built a consent mechanism into the NIP (see above article) which specifically removes the cross community mechanism replacing it with a simple majority of MLA's voting to retain or exit the NIP every four years (or possibly eight depending on the scale of the majority to retain) which in fact creates and embeds another very uncomfortable fact for the DUP in that the UK Govt has already established in law that any change to the NIP will be by simply majority of MLA's thus avoiding the possibility of giving the DUP and other Unionists the veto they so desperately want and are now trying to bully the whole of NI into giving them.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041970#Comment_119041970

They had a Brexit that worked. But they pulled the plug on May even though everyone was telling them that would mean an Irish Sea Border.

Electorate 1,373,731

Turnout 873,787 ( Way up from 812,783 in 2017 and 703,744 in 2016 )

DUP got 184,002 first pref votes which is less than 10% of the population ( 1,924,873 )

And they campaigned on 5 issues with the border tacked on to the end.

They only mandate they have is from No. 10 and it's to act as a distraction.

https://mydup.com/policies/assembly-election-manifesto-2022

In this election campaign the DUP has launched a five-point plan to build a better future for Northern Ireland within the Union, by fixing our National Health Service and investing £1 billion more in it, growing our economy and creating 20,000 jobs in the next 5 years, helping working families by delivering 30 hours free childcare per week and tackling the cost of living crisis, keeping our schools world-class, and working to remove the Irish Sea border.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119041786#Comment_119041786

Once elected, politicians are meant to represent their constituents, not just their voters.

The DUP do not do this.

Headshot

You know it's getting so **** tiring hearing the Tories about breaking an International agreement they signed. They really are nasty party and they really are far from the party they once were.

The Tories were always a nasty party but they were never to this extreme in a stupid **** ideology that is Brexit.

You know it will hurt all of us but at this point I just want to see the UK burn and let them break international law and they'll find it harder to deal with their biggest trade partner....

It's really stupid that they are possibly on a brink of a recession and yet Brexit means Brexit

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119043998#Comment_119043998

They are kind of like an out of control drunken gambler at a casino. They know they've messed up but they also can't stop themselves so they just say "fcuk it, there's no point stopping now" and will keep going until they either run out of chips or are thrown out. The one thing they'll never do is sober up, apologise for the havoc they caused and ask for forgiveness. Eton's finest aren't brought up to think that way.

salonfire

Look back, it was utterly stupid of Varadkar to accept the proposal to have a border down the Irish Sea. He should have known the reaction of the Unionist community and the instability it would cause to a very fragile balance in the North.

Again, it goes back to my point of how the EU bent over backwards to accommodate the UK as the transition period end date loomed. The UK were under pressure to get a deal done. It should have been left up to them to come up with a more practical solution to the NI border, which of course was May's idea.

Now Macron wants to invite the UK back into a political only union with the EU. No wonder the UK is so brazen with an incredibly weak EU. The UK should have been sent by to the 1930s during the Brexit negotiations, not handed with kid gloves.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044508#Comment_119044508

Every practical solution May put forward the DUP shot down

https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/umo5wq/theresa_may_shuts_down_dup_on_protocol_by/

And it was Boris Johnson who agreed to the sea border, he was the one who negotiated and signed the withdrawal agreement which again you might well remember he declared at the time "Oven Ready". No matter how much you try to rewrite history those are the facts.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044514#Comment_119044514

I know that but as the deadline loomed, the EU should have bounced them into May's solution otherwise no deal. But in their eagerness to appease the UK, we accepted any old nonsense put forward by Johnson.

It's like listening to a bot that has been written to try and win arguments with no concern for truth or sense.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044520#Comment_119044520

Jesus wept its everyones fault but the DUP ehh?

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044549#Comment_119044549

DUP or Boris; because you know the deadline was imposed by EU or something...

pixelburp

Hilarious how it was supposedly the fault of adults in the room for treating the delinquent like they might have had their sh*t together for 30 seconds. 99% of countries, when they deal with the EU, honour the terms of signed agreements - cos that's how nation states in peacetime work. There's a reason why Brexit has made, and continues to make headlines across the world; because the state continues to renege on international agreements IT SIGNED.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044679#Comment_119044679

It's all Leo's fault this time

roosterman71

Look back, it was utterly stupid of Varadkar to accept the proposal to have a border down the Irish Sea. He should have known the reaction of the Unionist community and the instability it would cause to a very fragile balance in the North.

Varadkar didn't accept it. The EU and UK agreed to it. There has to be a border. Either on the island or off it. Both parties agreed to off it and ignored the DUP while doing so.

Again, it goes back to my point of how the EU bent over backwards to accommodate the UK as the transition period end date loomed. The UK were under pressure to get a deal done. It should have been left up to them to come up with a more practical solution to the NI border, which of course was May's idea.

What bending is this now? The EU stuck to their guns, got nearly everything they wanted and the UK signed, declared it an "oven ready deal" and done so before the UKs own self imposed deadline.

Now Macron wants to invite the UK back into a political only union with the EU. No wonder the UK is so brazen with an incredibly weak EU. The UK should have been sent by to the 1930s during the Brexit negotiations, not handed with kid gloves.

The EU and UK are close neighbours. It makes total sense for all to have a united political front against bad actors who wish to damage the people of the continent. Having a political relationship doesn't mean there'll be no trade barriers, FOM exemptions or any of the other things agreed in the TCA

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044520#Comment_119044520

No Deal would have screwed the irish economy just as hard as the UK economy.

The NIP allowed us to keep to business as usual on the island of Ireland and the UK could pussyfoot around for 3 years slowly strangling their own economy while disadvantaging their own businesses in their trading relationship with Europe.

If there was a hard border implemented on the morning of a No Deal brexit, we could already be in the middle of a campaign of violence along the border.

The political instability caused by the NIP is nothing compared to the instability we would almost certainly have experienced on the event of the hardest possible No Deal exit

Sam Russell

This NI Protocol spat is so stupid. The EU said at the very start of negotiations the the first three items that had to be settled first were:

1: The outstanding money the UK would owe the EU.

2: EU citizen's rights

3: The NI/Ireland border and the GF agreement - no hard border.

The only solution to an open border for NI was a 'soft' Brexit. A 'hard' Brexit would require a border between NI and GB. The simplicity of such a border made this the obvious choice if there were trade barriers, which the UK Gov wanted. The UK signed up to a NI/GB trade border in the WA - an international agreement.

So why the spat?

Seth Brundle

Tony Connelly has a twitter thread on the EU views on the UKs current approach to the NIP which is worth a read

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1523971965538783232

In summary, the UK government's approach to blaming the NIP for various woes despite 54 out of 90 MLAs supportuing the protocol (and despite what @salonfire seems to think). Whilst the EU will await any legislation from London, they are prepared for misbehaviour and will take any retalitory measures should GB take steps to damage the Protocol.

Although not surprising, this post possibly sums up the how the behaviour from London has been received. The UK's international reputation surely is nearing complete tatters?

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1523971984102760451

Leroy42

This really has nothing to do with the EU. This is an internal political issue of the UK. The very UK that voted Brexit on the basis of the EU having too much control, now want the EU to sort out it own political mess!

Ni, has no power of the NIP. Whether they should have or not is certainly a worthy discussion, but as per the act of union NI has no power in this regard. The UK government, as voted for by the people of the Uk in GE 2019, gave overwhelming support (seat wise at least which is the only real determining factor) to the NIP and the WA.

So while NI may have real issues, unfortunately it is the UK government that is the only people that can solve them. But, they need to be solved with the constraints of the agreement that the UK government entered into, again on the basis of winning the GE 2019. Johnson has no mandate to change the deal. People voted to get brexit done, and now Johnson is actively thinking about getting brexit undone.

Johnson needs to sit down the DUP and tell it the reality of the situation. As they are loyal citizens of the UK, they must abide by the democratic will of the people of the UK and by the decision of the democratically elected government. While the government may work to amend the deal in the future, this is the deal as it stands and it is their responsibility to see it implemented.

The alternative is that they no longer recognise the legitimacy of the UK government to make decisions on their behalf and look to leave the UK.

Igotadose

Tony C on LBC now with O'Brien

https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1524065734132965378

May saying it how it is.