Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

First Up

Peregrinus wrote:

Ireland and Great Britain were a single market for about a hundred years, from 1926 to 1922. From 1922 onwards there was no single market covering both Great Britain and Ireland until the EU constructed one. The UK has now put an end to it.

Anglo Irish Free Trade Agreement 1965.

Sam Russell

First Up wrote: »

Anglo Irish Free Trade Agreement 1965.

Which greatly favoured the British side.

I told ya

The OH was in M&S Blanch this morning.

Loads of food items practically being given away. According to the staff there are still delays with the result that when the foods stocks arrive they are almost out of date.

Trying to work around it but nothing in sight yet.

First Up

Sam Russell wrote:

Which greatly favoured the British side.

Actually it started Ireland's economic transformation and the attraction of foreign investment.

View

First Up wrote: »

Anglo Irish Free Trade Agreement 1965.

A free trade agreement does not make a single market.

First Up

View wrote:

A free trade agreement does not make a single market.

True but it was an important step in the journey to Ireland's EU membership and the single market.

Hurrache

I told ya wrote: »

Trying to work around it but nothing in sight yet.

The simple one, and something they should have been doing for years anyway and a reason I don't buy food there, is to start sourcing from Ireland.

Sam Russell

Hurrache wrote: »

The simple one, and something they should have been doing for years anyway and a reason I don't buy food there, is to start sourcing from Ireland.

Lidl give the impression that they source nearly all food from Ireland which they do not.

M&S, on the other hand, give the impression that they source nothing from Ireland which is true. Even the liquid milk they sell is from GB.

I think the presence of M&S on the island of Ireland as a food supermarket are numbered. Maybe a link up with Musgraves might suit them both - perhaps even under the M&S brand.

Kermit.de.frog

Sam Russell wrote: »

Lidl give the impression that they source nearly all food from Ireland which they do not.

M&S, on the other hand, give the impression that they source nothing from Ireland which is true. Even the liquid milk they sell is from GB.

I think the presence of M&S on the island of Ireland as a food supermarket are numbered. Maybe a link up with Musgraves might suit them both - perhaps even under the M&S brand.

That's something I can't understand.

Surely there should be an obligation on the likes of M&S to at least source some things locally if they are going to operate and make money in this market.

Some M&S stuff is good and I use to shop there a bit but seeing all the British flags on everything makes me feel that these guys don't contribute to supply chains in this economy like they should.

I don't think it's anti free market to insist sourcing a certain percentage from this market particularly basics like milk, bread etc that support Irish jobs.

Hurrache

They contribute nothing to the supply chain here, they stock their stores directly from trucks from the UK, they don't have any distribution here.

Sam Russell

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

That's something I can't understand.

Surely there should be an obligation on the likes of M&S to at least source some things locally if they are going to operate and make money in this market.

Some M&S stuff is good and I use to shop there a bit but seeing all the British flags on everything makes me feel that these guys don't contribute to supply chains in this economy like they should.

I don't think it's anti free market to insist sourcing a certain percentage from this market particularly basics like milk, bread etc.

That is the problem with M&S. They are a British operation, or perhaps it should be a BRITISH operation. To them Dublin is just the same as Halifax - everyone here loves British sausages, and British bacon, etc. Just to emphasise it, they put a GB flag on everything. Tone deaf.

It would probably be against the SM. Didn't Guaranteed Irish run into trouble over something like this.

Peregrinus

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is the problem with M&S. They are a British operation, or perhaps it should be a BRITISH operation. To them Dublin is just the same as Halifax - everyone here loves British sausages, and British bacon, etc. Just to emphasise it, they put a GB flag on everything. Tone deaf.

It would probably be against the SM. Didn't Guaranteed Irish run into trouble over something like this.

The consumer can of course prefer locally-sourced goods over imported goods (or the reverse; I want my parmesan cheese to come from Parma, dammit!).

And there's nothing to stop, e.g. a supermarket chain promoting Irish produce.

But the state can't run or fund a "Buy Irish" campaign, or impose an obligation on retailers to stock Irish produce in preference to foreign, or anything of the kind, because that's a state aid to Irish producers, and disadvantageous to e.g. French producers.

Peregrinus

First Up wrote: »

Anglo Irish Free Trade Agreement 1965.

The Anglo-irish Free Trade Agreement did not create a Single Market. It did away with tariffs but that, as the UK is now rediscovering, is a much more limited thing.

L1011

Peregrinus wrote: »

(or the reverse; I want my parmesan cheese to come from Parma, dammit!)..

That's a difficult demand, as the PDO is named after both Parma and Regio Emilia to begin with :pac:

(and it allows two other regions too - https://www.parmigianoreggiano.com/news/parmesan-has-nothing-to-share-with-the-traceability-of-the-king-of-cheeses-parmigiano-reggiano-pdo/)

Peregrinus

L1011 wrote: »

That's a difficult demand, as the PDO is named after both Parma and Regio Emilia to begin with :pac:

(and it allows two other regions too - https://www.parmigianoreggiano.com/news/parmesan-has-nothing-to-share-with-the-traceability-of-the-king-of-cheeses-parmigiano-reggiano-pdo/)

I'm aware of that. But I could still have a preference for cheese actually produced in Parma and, if I had that preference, I could e.g. research artisanal dairies located in Parma itself and buy only their produce.

My point is that it's fine for consumers to have, and act on, whatever preferences they like in this regard. Member states, not so much.

completedit

Peregrinus wrote: »

The consumer can of course prefer locally-sourced goods over imported goods (or the reverse; I want my parmesan cheese to come from Parma, dammit!).

And there's nothing to stop, e.g. a supermarket chain promoting Irish produce.

But the state can't run or fund a "Buy Irish" campaign, or impose an obligation on retailers to stock Irish produce in preference to foreign, or anything of the kind, because that's a state aid to Irish producers, and disadvantageous to e.g. French producers.

Czech Republic are trying to introduce a quota over there. Not sure how they think it will work.

Kermit.de.frog

Peregrinus wrote: »

The consumer can of course prefer locally-sourced goods over imported goods (or the reverse; I want my parmesan cheese to come from Parma, dammit!).

And there's nothing to stop, e.g. a supermarket chain promoting Irish produce.

But the state can't run or fund a "Buy Irish" campaign, or impose an obligation on retailers to stock Irish produce in preference to foreign, or anything of the kind, because that's a state aid to Irish producers, and disadvantageous to e.g. French producers.

The UK is outside the EU now.

Does not that change things?

I find it unbelievable that a major chain like M&S can operate here - put other smaller Irish retailers out of business - and ON TOP of that not even stock a sandwich with so much as one filling sourced in Ireland.

That's wrong in my view.

completedit

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK is outside the EU now.

Does not that change things?

I find it unbelievable that a major chain like M&S can operate here - put other smaller Irish retailers out of business - and ON TOP of that not even stock a sandwich with fillings sourced in Ireland.

That's wrong in my view.

What about those employees who work in the shops?
M&S give us more variety, they promote competition and the consumer benefits through lower prices and more options. If British consumers adopted your attitude then what would our farmers do with their excess produce?

It does seem a bit weird that a store can operate in a country with so little Irish input but they pay rents, pay wages and create other value.

Kermit.de.frog

What about them?

If M&S are making money here and they are - they can bloody well start helping our agri sector here.

Instead of stocking the shop with UK flags.

Not right.

completedit

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What about them?

If M&S are making money here and they are - they can bloody well start helping our agri sector here.

Instead of stocking the shop with UK flags.

Not right.

In the context of Britain no longer being an EU member, I agree.

Larbre34

completedit wrote: »

What about those employees who work in the shops?

Tough. Ideally, increased custom in other retailers would create work for them.

I'm making a deliberate effort to avoid British retailers, then manufacturers and other businesses.

I will buy Irish first, then other EU nations produce after that. If I can't get something to suit, I will look at brands from Countries that the EU has a positive and mutually beneficial trade relationship with.

Kermit.de.frog

completedit wrote: »

In the context of Britain no longer being an EU member, I agree.

We shouldn't accept this.

This is a small market and the likes of M&S are putting small Irish retailers out of business while not contributing at all to our supply chains - which they put at risk.

That's Irish jobs, Irish income lost, not gained - going to UK producers exclusively.

Anyhow they are out now so it's time to do something about it.

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK is outside the EU now.

Does not that change things?

No.

Because a "Buy Irish" campaign or a "Buy Irish" requirement doesn't just disadvantage UK producers/retailers; it disadvantages producers/retailers in all countries that are not Ireland, including the other member states.

The government could have a "Buy European" campaign/requirement. But:

1. That would mean that food produced relatively locally (e.g. in Wales) was disadvantaged by comparison with food that might be produced much further away (e.g. in Greece), have a much greater carbon footprint, etc.

2. A "Buy European" campaign disadvantaging UK produce relative to EU produce might be contrary to the level playing field provisions of the EU/UK TCA. (I haven't looked into this, but it's certain something that would need to be checked.)

But I suspect the problem will solve itself. M&S's business model for the grocery side of the business is a really poor fit with those of its stores that are no longer in a single market with the M&S suppliers. I suspect that in the medium term they will either (a) change the business model for grocery sold outside the UK; (b) discontinue the grocery business outside the UK and just run clothing stores; or (c) sell their stores outside the UK.

First Up

Peregrinus wrote:

The Anglo-irish Free Trade Agreement did not create a Single Market. It did away with tariffs but that, as the UK is now rediscovering, is a much more limited thing.

I mentioned it because it was an important strategic move by the Irish government as a step towards joining the EU long before the single market was created.

It exposed industries that had been protected by tariffs to the realities of international competition. Some failed as a result but it also opened the much larger UK market and kick-started Ireland's strategy of attracting foreign investment. EU membership followed from that.

Great credit is due to those who designed and drove us down that path (against fervent opposition from some quarters).

rock22

First Up wrote: »

I mentioned it because it was an important strategic move by the Irish government as a step towards joining the EU long before the single market was created.

..... EU membership followed from that.

Great credit is due to those who designed and drove us down that path (against fervent opposition from some quarters).

I am not too sure that is what happened.
Ireland, like Denmark, followed the UK into the EEC because we both had a lot of trade with UK and our decision was to follow the UK market.

UK Joining the EEC might have been the best thing England ever did for us.

Peregrinus

First Up wrote: »

I mentioned it because it was an important strategic move by the Irish government as a step towards joining the EU long before the single market was created.

It exposed industries that had been protected by tariffs to the realities of international competition. Some failed as a result but it also opened the much larger UK market and kick-started Ireland's strategy of attracting foreign investment. EU membership followed from that.

Great credit is due to those who designed and drove us down that path (against fervent opposition from some quarters).

It was an important strategic move etc etc.

But it wasn't a precursor to our decision to join the EU. Rather, it followed on from that decision, which had already been taken. We had already applied, along with the UK, in 1961. The Anglo-Irish Free Trade agreemen was seen as a start to the kind of economic integration that common EEC membership would entail.

But, my point is, that wasn't a single market, or anything like one.

First Up

Peregrinus wrote:

But it wasn't a precursor to our decision to join the EU. Rather, it followed on from that decision, which had already been taken. We had already applied, along with the UK, in 1961. The Anglo-Irish Free Trade agreemen was seen as a start to the kind of economic integration that common EEC membership would entail.

That's what I said.

It was set out as far back as 1958 in the 1st Programme for Economic Expansion (TK Whitaker take a bow).

CelticRambler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is a small market and the likes of M&S are putting small Irish retailers out of business while not contributing at all to our supply chains - which they put at risk.

Oh dear ... have you learnt nothing from history? This is the "German Bankers" argument all over again.

M&S are not putting Irish retailers out of business - they would not be in Ireland (or France, or Czechia) if they didn't think there were enough customers in those countries to buy enough of their British produce. So if anyone is putting small Irish retailers out of business, it is Irish customers choosing to support a foreign company selling foreign products.

Probably the same Irish people who willingly took out massive loans from German banks to out-bid other Irish house-buyers in a mad rush to drive property prices way over the EU average.

First Up

It will be interesting to watch. M&S's European business model depends on the sort of seamless distribution only possible in a single market. Their shops in Ireland and elsewhere in the EU are already noticing the difference.

I wonder if many M&S employees voted for Brexit.

Peregrinus

First Up wrote: »

It will be interesting to watch. M&S's European business model depends on the sort of seamless distribution only possible in a single market. Their shops in Ireland and elsewhere in the EU are already noticing the difference.

I wonder if many M&S employees voted for Brexit.

The only ones who could vote are the ones employed in UK stores. And those stores, of course, are not affected in the same way.