Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

Eric Cartman

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Never, I would imagine. These places never had duty free shops, there is ample space on a boat for shop selling cheap vodka.

Stena line absolutely had a duty free shop at a port when I was a kid. Which port im not sure but it was like a large prefab box shape past the check in huts.

An Ciarraioch

European freight up 446% in Jan:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0131/1194166-rosslare-freight/

Peregrinus

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

European freight up 446% in Jan:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0131/1194166-rosslare-freight/

That's European freight through Rosslare. Obviously, it's largely accounted for by freight displaced from the landbridge route, so it's not new freight; just freight using a different route.

More freight will have been diverted from the landbridge routes to routes operating out of Cork.

But until we have figure for the reduction in freight on the landbridge routes, we don't know whether overall Ireland/EU-26 freight volumes are up or down, or by how much.

First Up

Peregrinus wrote:

But until we have figure for the reduction in freight on the landbridge routes, we don't know whether overall Ireland/EU-26 freight volumes are up or down, or by how much.

It's really just about adapting existing supply chains to cut out the Landbridge. The ferry operators reacted pretty quickly in switching larger vessels to Ireland - France routes as well as opening some new routes.
But it's for existing business mostly.

rock22

First Up wrote: »

It's really just about adapting existing supply chains to cut out the Landbridge. The ferry operators reacted pretty quickly in switching larger vessels to Ireland - France routes as well as opening some new routes.
But it's for existing business mostly.

I agree that the ferry operators have reacted quickly but mainline business's seem reluctant to change their supply lines.

I am still waiting for parts for my car which were coming from UK. I have asked the Irish distributor if they intend to continue to warehouse parts in the UK for the cars sold here and, naturally , they just ignored my email. All indications are that much of the motor industry will continue as before as the cost is borne by the customer and not by the car manufacturer.

I still believe there is a real danger that , for many goods, we will remain a third country to UK which will be a third country to the EU, with the obvious costs to Irish consumers.
(Incidentally I did email a relevant Dail committee who 'noted' my concerns - I am not too sure what that means )

Going Strong

rock22 wrote: »

I agree that the ferry operators have reacted quickly but mainline business's seem reluctant to change their supply lines.

I am still waiting for parts for my car which were coming from UK. I have asked the Irish distributor if they intend to continue to warehouse parts in the UK for the cars sold here and, naturally , they just ignored my email. All indications are that much of the motor industry will continue as before as the cost is borne by the customer and not by the car manufacturer.

I still believe there is a real danger that , for many goods, we will remain a third country to UK which will be a third country to the EU, with the obvious costs to Irish consumers.
(Incidentally I did email a relevant Dail committee who 'noted' my concerns - I am not too sure what that means )

My brother is in Construction and received a raft of emails from builder's merchants etc along the lines of "We won't be changing our heavily reliant on the UK supply lines any time soon and will be passing on any increases to you."


He said that he expects the large Construction companies to start sourcing their own supplies but the small fry like himself will be stuck.

First Up

rock22 wrote:

All indications are that much of the motor industry will continue as before as the cost is borne by the customer and not by the car manufacturer.

I know of at least one Japanese make that now serves Ireland from their European logistics base in Rotterdam instead of Swindon.

rock22

Going Strong wrote: »

My brother is in Construction and received a raft of emails from builder's merchants etc along the lines of "We won't be changing our heavily reliant on the UK supply lines any time soon and will be passing on any increases to you."


He said that he expects the large Construction companies to start sourcing their own supplies but the small fry like himself will be stuck.

I think this is the hidden cost of Brexit for Ireland, And unbelievably, no politician seems to be interested. I have written to two Dail committees, had a reply from one which said my concerns were noted. No reply from the other. And no reply from Volkswagen about the supply of parts.

First Up, I would be interested in the name of the car manufacture you mentioned. Certainly any big purchases I make will be on the basis that parts are held in the EU and don't have to come from a third country

First Up

rock22 wrote:

First Up, I would be interested in the name of the car manufacture you mentioned. Certainly any big purchased I make will be on the basis that parts are held in the EU and don't have to come from a third country

Subaru

beggars_bush

First Up wrote: »

Subaru

Great. They sell what, 200 cars a year in Ireland? If even that

CelticRambler

rock22 wrote: »

I think this is the hidden cost of Brexit for Ireland, And unbelievably, no politician seems to be interested. I have written to two Dail committees, had a reply from one which said my concerns were noted. No reply from the other.

Well, it's not really for politicians to decide how Irish customers choose to spend their money. If the Irish building trade wants materials sold, labelled and measured in feet and inches, or made to conform to British standards, then that's their choice. There's no shortage of suppliers here on the Continent, and if we can send lorry loads of French straw for Irish cows to lie on, delivering a truck load of timber or cement or plastic pipe would be no more difficult - as long as you don't mind it being measured/sold by the mm or kg.

First Up

beggars_bush wrote:

Great. They sell what, 200 cars a year in Ireland? If even that

Dunno. What does that matter?

listermint

Going Strong wrote: »

My brother is in Construction and received a raft of emails from builder's merchants etc along the lines of "We won't be changing our heavily reliant on the UK supply lines any time soon and will be passing on any increases to you."


He said that he expects the large Construction companies to start sourcing their own supplies but the small fry like himself will be stuck.

Interesting, I guess then it will be entirely down the the more savvy builders merchants here to source from the EU with a view to bringing the costs down stealing business from the rest who won't move with the times.

It only takes one or two to smarten up.

Sam Russell

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, it's not really for politicians to decide how Irish customers choose to spend their money. If the Irish building trade wants materials sold, labelled and measured in feet and inches, or made to conform to British standards, then that's their choice. There's no shortage of suppliers here on the Continent, and if we can send lorry loads of French straw for Irish cows to lie on, delivering a truck load of timber or cement or plastic pipe would be no more difficult - as long as you don't mind it being measured/sold by the mm or kg.

Building standards are a bit tricky.

Plumbing piping- UK = metric while Ireland = imperial. Major problem.
Electrics - UK = metric while Ireland = metric
Timber - UK = metric while Ireland = metric.
and so on.

However, many things are British styles for historic reasons.

Electrical fittings tend to be British - like 13 amp plugs. Wiring schemes tend to follow British systems because we use 13 A plugs, UK rated fuses, etc. Plumbing fittings tend to be British though more continental stuff appears to be coming in.

I currently need a valve seal for my toilet but cannot get it from Amazon.co.uk because they will not ship it it costs €4.84, and it is unavailable from Amazon.de. Ebay.co.uk have it - it costs about €5 but postage is free to UK but €22 to Ireland. I'll try Chadwicks during the week if they are within 5km.

It is going to take a while for all this to be sorted.

View

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, it's not really for politicians to decide how Irish customers choose to spend their money. If the Irish building trade wants materials sold, labelled and measured in feet and inches, or made to conform to British standards, then that's their choice. There's no shortage of suppliers here on the Continent, and if we can send lorry loads of French straw for Irish cows to lie on, delivering a truck load of timber or cement or plastic pipe would be no more difficult - as long as you don't mind it being measured/sold by the mm or kg.

Our politicians are, first and foremost, legislators, responsible for deciding on the regulations that apply here.

It is most definitely their responsibility to decide whether or not the Irish building trade gets to have their materials sold, labelled and measured in feet and inches, or made to conform to British standards.

Be under no illusions that adopting a “laissez faire” attitude is effectively choosing British standards by default.

The classic example of this is in our electrical standards. The initial electrical equipment supplied here came from Siemens so we started off using the German Schucko sockets and plugs (the system used in most EU countries today). When electrification sped up in the 60s though, our electrical white goods came overwhelmingly from the U.K. and - by default - came with U.K. plugs. Our politicians’ failure to regulate and insist they came with Schucko plugs, meant that the U.K. standard became the default, which the politicians eventually and very belatedly recognised and legislated for. Now, with Brexit, that leaves us using at a major disadvantage when ordering electrical white goods - as we are using a totally different plug/socket standard from our EU neighbours.

PommieBast

View wrote: »

It is most definitely their responsibility to decide whether or not the Irish building trade gets to have their materials sold, labelled and measured in feet and inches, or made to conform to British standards.

I thought the UK itself had banned use of those units

CelticRambler

View wrote: »

Our politicians are, first and foremost, legislators, responsible for deciding on the regulations that apply here.

It is most definitely their responsibility to decide whether or not the Irish building trade gets to have their materials sold, labelled and measured in feet and inches, or made to conform to British standards.

Be under no illusions that adopting a “laissez faire” attitude is effectively choosing British standards by default.

It is unreasonable to hold today's politicians accountable for decisions made in the sixties. And while there may be some specific aspects of building regs, such as electrical sockets, that cannot be undone or revised overnight, the vast majority of material and equipment being sold in builders' merchants and DIY stores does not fall into that category.

If there are enough complaints about it, I'd be very surprised if a French or German chain didn't open at least one store in Ireland to undercut the others ... except, of course, most of them have the same parent company, so it probably suits them not to have competition within the family.

(Incidentally, here in France, it is perfectly acceptable to fit "British" sockets as well as Euro ones, provided they're marked "NF" - the French equivalent to "BS". And they're available in all supermarkets with decent population of British immigrants.)

Infini

Honestly I'm suprised that with Brexit that we don't at some point reconsider pushing to switch our electric standards from British to EU Standards over a period of 10 years. I mean realistically its not impossible to do, New items could have the schuko plug and adaptors could be used to bridge the gap on houses in the interim.
Theres also the option of combo or universal sockets though they might not be as good.

Honestly at this point we should just push as many policies to disconnect us from British systems as possible as we'll only end up paying more in the long term for being dependent on them.

rock22

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, it's not really for politicians to decide how Irish customers choose to spend their money. If the Irish building trade wants materials sold, labelled and measured in feet and inches, or made to conform to British standards, then that's their choice. There's no shortage of suppliers here on the Continent, and if we can send lorry loads of French straw for Irish cows to lie on, delivering a truck load of timber or cement or plastic pipe would be no more difficult - as long as you don't mind it being measured/sold by the mm or kg.

Politicians regularly make decision about how we spend our money. How many trade embargos have western countries imposed since WW2, limiting our ability to trade?

To the main point, access to the Single Market is a major aspect of EU membership. Almost all the talk post Brexit has been in relation to trade.
But access to the Single Market affects both producers and customers. And, as customers, Irish residents are being denied the benefits of the Single Market. That should be of concern to every politician.
What is more, if the effective ban continues, there will be cogent economic arguments to align Ireland with the UK, as we did in the 60's , becuae our main trading partner will be outside the EU and EU menbership will be seen by many as a cost with little benefit. So , again , a good reason for politicians, especially those supporting the EU to stop this distortion of the market.

Peregrinus

rock22 wrote: »

. . . What is more, if the effective ban continues, there will be cogent economic arguments to align Ireland with the UK, as we did in the 60's , because our main trading partner will be outside the EU and EU menbership will be seen by many as a cost with little benefit.

Wait, what? Our main trading partner is the EU-26, by a very large margin. Am I misunderstanding you?

CelticRambler

rock22 wrote: »

But access to the Single Market affects both producers and customers. And, as customers, Irish residents are being denied the benefits of the Single Market. That should be of concern to every politician.
What is more, if the effective ban continues, there will be cogent economic arguments to align Ireland with the UK, as we did in the 60's , becuae our main trading partner will be outside the EU and EU menbership will be seen by many as a cost with little benefit.

What ban? What denial of access? In just six weeks, Ireland's continued direct access to the Single Market has been assured by an explosion of new maritime routes, at the expense of capacity to the UK.

The point under discussion is certain *private* enterprises choosing to serve their Irish customers from hubs in GB, and *private* citizens in Ireland choosing to buy from companies operating outside the EU.

If you seriously believe Ireland and the Irish are suddenly cut off from the EU, let's have some real world examples of products that can no longer be sourced from within the EU.

Sam Russell

Infini wrote: »

Honestly I'm suprised that with Brexit that we don't at some point reconsider pushing to switch our electric standards from British to EU Standards over a period of 10 years. I mean realistically its not impossible to do, New items could have the schuko plug and adaptors could be used to bridge the gap on houses in the interim.
Theres also the option of combo or universal sockets though they might not be as good.

Honestly at this point we should just push as many policies to disconnect us from British systems as possible as we'll only end up paying more in the long term for being dependent on them.

Like driving on the left, it is impossible to change some things, and for others a long term changeover is required.

The plug/socket is only one aspect of these standards. There is a fundamental philosophical difference between the UK approach and the EU approach. Well to be pedantic, the EU has yet to have an approach acceptable to all member states.

First the wiring standards need unifying, which the largely are, except for the UK. We tend to steer a middle route, using the ring main approach less widely than the UK. We should outlaw the ring main to start with, as this is not good practice by EU norms. Earthing and fusing norms also vary. We should get the EU to start the unification of electrical standards once again as it was the UK that scuppered the last attempt - the EU plug/socket has been designed and has already been adopted by .... Brazil.

We are into week six of the UK being a third country. It is very early to make any long term moves.

reslfj

Peregrinus wrote: »

Wait, what? Our main trading partner is the EU-26, by a very large margin. Am I misunderstanding you?

Both Denmark and Ireland - joining the EEC with the UK in 1973 - were heavily dependent on export to the UK when we joined.

Since then we both managed to trade much more within the EEC and now within the EU26. We have both increased our export and import to/from the rest of the world too.

For Ireland the import from the UK is much (~two times) larger than its export to the UK even if you subtract intra island of Ireland trade.
Most of what Ireland needs to import can easily be sourced from EU26/EEA/CH or RoW.

The main Brexit related trade problems are between NI/GB now being a semi external UK border.
The open land border will allow cross border supply chains to continue (e.g. farm -> dairy -> consumers (in NI, ROI or EU26))

The TCA should allow RHD cars produced in the UK to be imported into Ireland tariff free. It should also allow farm products to be exported into the island of GB tariff free.
If done in larger volumes the paperwork/NTBs will not cost too much per unit traded.

Lars

cantwbr1

CelticRambler wrote: »

The point under discussion is certain *private* enterprises choosing to serve their Irish customers from hubs in GB, and *private* citizens in Ireland choosing to buy from companies operating outside the EU.

If this happens there is huge onus on us as customers (retail and business) to object and to push the enterprises to source directly from the EU or take our business elsewhere . Otherwise we are looking at a significant cost of living increase and loss of competitiveness

rock22

cantwbr1 wrote: »

If this happens there is huge onus on us as customers (retail and business) to object and to push the enterprises to source directly from the EU or take our business elsewhere . Otherwise we are looking at a significant cost of living increase and loss of competitiveness

I agree that there is an onus on us, as customers, to push this. But for many things car parts for instance, it seems that the major European car manufacturers will not supply to us from EU but are forcing us to go to the UK. I am currently without a part for a German car because they insist on supply Ireland from the UK. I have no choice, neither apparently has the Irish distributor, in the matter. And of course, the parts are held up somewhere in post Brexit delays. And it has already been stated that building supplies are continue from the UK because distributors are decided to continue to use old supply chains , passing on the cost to the customer.

Incidentally , it might be that the cars will be directly imported , meaning most of the value is seen as EU trade, but RHD car parts are being warehoused in the UK.

Sam Russell

reslfj wrote: »

Both Denmark and Ireland - joining the EEC with the UK in 1973 - were heavily dependent on export to the UK when we joined.

Since then we both managed to trade much more within the EEC and now within the EU26. We have both increased our export and import to/from the rest of the world too.

For Ireland the import from the UK is much (~two times) larger than its export to the UK even if you subtract intra island of Ireland trade.
Most of what Ireland needs to import can easily be sourced from EU26/EEA/CH or RoW.

The main Brexit related trade problems are between NI/GB now being a semi external UK border.
The open land border will allow cross border supply chains to continue (e.g. farm -> dairy -> consumers (in NI, ROI or EU26))

The TCA should allow RHD cars produced in the UK to be imported into Ireland tariff free. It should also allow farm products to be exported into the island of GB tariff free.
If done in larger volumes the paperwork/NTBs will not cost too much per unit traded.

Lars

A lot of imports from the UK are redirected imports from elsewhere.

Cars - VAG and others are merely re-exported from the EU. This should correct itself - for example VAG cars due to go to NI should go direct from Germany - Ireland - NI. Same as car parts - Germany - Ireland and not Germany - UK - Ireland. Cut out the double currency conversion and the middle man margin. There is no need to make changes for RHD, as those produced in the UK (subject to Rules of origin) do not attract tariffs, and those not produced in the UK should come direct. If I order a new VW Golf RHD from the factory in Wolfsburg, why should it go near the UK?

Food - a lot of food from the UK is highly processed factory food, like ready meals, or biscuits, and that kind of stuff. We could miss this or substitute our own better quality food.

General merchandise - merely imported to the UK, add margin, and export to Ireland.

We need to be smarter and cut out the middle man and the additional cost for no real benefit.

However, early days yet - only week six.

Sam Russell

rock22 wrote: »

Incidentally , it might be that the cars will be directly imported , meaning most of the value is seen as EU trade, but RHD car parts are being warehoused in the UK.

Not many parts on a car are handed. Most parts are the same whether LHD or RHD. It will sort itself out in the long run, hopefully.

McGiver

reslfj wrote: »

Both Denmark and Ireland - joining the EEC with the UK in 1973 - were heavily dependent on export to the UK when we joined.

Since then we both managed to trade much more within the EEC and now within the EU26. We have both increased our export and import to/from the rest of the world too.

For Ireland the import from the UK is much (~two times) larger than its export to the UK even if you subtract intra island of Ireland trade.
Most of what Ireland needs to import can easily be sourced from EU26/EEA/CH or RoW.

The main Brexit related trade problems are between NI/GB now being a semi external UK border.
The open land border will allow cross border supply chains to continue (e.g. farm -> dairy -> consumers (in NI, ROI or EU26))

The TCA should allow RHD cars produced in the UK to be imported into Ireland tariff free. It should also allow farm products to be exported into the island of GB tariff free.
If done in larger volumes the paperwork/NTBs will not cost too much per unit traded.

Lars

Exports are on a good track (~8% based on how you calculate RoI-NI trade).

Imports from the UK are still way too high. Last time I checked, I think it was 25%, this is a liability as we can all see and needs to be addressed.

Re RHD - how about changing to LHD? :cool: I know, I know NI, but...

Sam Russell

McGiver wrote: »

Exports are on a good track (~8% based on how you calculate RoI-NI trade).

Imports from the UK are still way too high. Last time I checked, I think it was 25%, this is a liability as we can all see and needs to be addressed.

Re RHD - how about changing to LHD? :cool: I know, I know NI, but...

NI would be a tiny problem compared to the general difficulty of changing the DRHD to LHD.

It would cost a giddy fortune to change, not to mention quite a few lives. Every road sign would need to be transferred from one side of the road to the other. Every junction on motorways and dual carriageways would need to be checked for design, and many would need redesigning to allow adequate run in for the new direction. And that is before considering our bus fleet and cars.

If you think driving on the other side of the road is such a good idea, try it on your way home some night and just see how dangerous it is .

First Up

Sam Russell wrote: »

NI would be a tiny problem compared to the general difficulty of changing the DRHD to LHD.

It would cost a giddy fortune to change, not to mention quite a few lives. Every road sign would need to be transferred from one side of the road to the other. Every junction on motorways and dual carriageways would need to be checked for design, and many would need redesigning to allow adequate run in for the new direction. And that is before considering our bus fleet and cars.

If you think driving on the other side of the road is such a good idea, try it on your way home some night and just see how dangerous it is .

Most of Asia drives on the left. All Japanese cars are available LHD and European car makers who sell to Asia have LHD models. It obviously made sense to use the UK as a distribution hub for RHD models when they were in the EU but it no longer does.