Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

First Up

Peregrinus wrote:

The only ones who could vote are the ones employed in UK stores. And those stores, of course, are not affected in the same way.

They have a lot of people working on logistics and distribution.

Sam Russell

First Up wrote: »

They have a lot of people working on logistics and distribution.

I would not have thought so.

M&S are a strange retailer/supermarket that has lost its way in the last decade or so. They used to be credited with 'selling the nation it's knickers' where they supplied high quality but reasonably priced items of clothing and food. They mainly sold clothes manufactured in Britain. However, they cost differential forced them eastwards to cheaper supplies.

However, they have chased the market upwards, looking to be a leader in fashion. This just did not happen and failed to generate the market they they were hoping for, and they have been close to disaster a few times in the recent past.

Their prices in the Irish stores are some 20% higher than the same items in the UK. [It is easy to check on line].

I think their grocery market is unviable for them in Ireland - but maybe their clothing side might survive but I doubt it. I think Dunnes might see them as a good fit, or Musgraves for the grocery side.

Of course, they could change the business model.

First Up

Sam Russell wrote:

I would not have thought so.

I suggest you acquaint yourself with how they operate.

zell12

First Up wrote: »

It will be interesting to watch. M&S's European business model depends on the sort of seamless distribution only possible in a single market. Their shops in Ireland and elsewhere in the EU are already noticing the difference.

https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210122-brexit-deprives-brits-in-france-of-m-s-comfort-foods-expats-eu-marks-spencer-pork-pie-sandwich-beer

grayzer75

M&S are supposed to be in talks with Deli-Lites to supply sandwiches for their stores on the island of Ireland. Their biggest and most profitable store is on the island of Ireland (Sprucefield) so it's in their interests to find a solution quickly.

zell12

Crisps lorry held up for two days by Northern Irish Brexit checks, MPs told

“A lorryload of potato crisps was held up for two days because the haulier couldn’t prove the potatoes … had not been imported into the UK from somewhere else,” Jenkin told the committee. He said the “whole point of the protocol was to prevent goods at risk of entering the Republic of Ireland”, not to check items that would remain in Northern Ireland.

Hauliers in Northern Ireland are urging the UK government to try to renegotiate the interpretation of the protocol. Burnett said extending the grace period, as some have suggested, was just “kicking the problem down the road”.
One haulier, John Esler, told that hs income has dropped 40% in the past three weeks. “Northern Ireland did not vote for Brexit. I did not vote for Brexit. But I suspect our current secretary of state did, Michael Gove did, Boris Johnson most certainly did – but they ignore us.
“If we do not get help, it will be P45s by Easter. It is as blunt as that.”

An Ciarraioch

Cherbourg will handle 9,000 trucks in January alone, which was a quarter of its annual pre-Covid freight levels:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-maritime-trade-idUSKBN29R1LI

L1011

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Cherbourg will handle 9,000 trucks in January alone, which was a quarter of its annual pre-Covid freight levels:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-maritime-trade-idUSKBN29R1LI

Cherbourg, Rosslare and Cork Ports must be rubbing their hands in glee at the fees income; whereas Stena will be suffering rather badly - operating Fishguard *and* Holyhead.

Larbre34

Astonishing numbers. It certainly shows the pressure the infrastructure in Rosslare will be under as volumes increase.

View

Peregrinus wrote: »

It was an important strategic move etc etc.

But it wasn't a precursor to our decision to join the EU. Rather, it followed on from that decision, which had already been taken. We had already applied, along with the UK, in 1961. The Anglo-Irish Free Trade agreemen was seen as a start to the kind of economic integration that common EEC membership would entail.

But, my point is, that wasn't a single market, or anything like one.

BIB - Actually we applied before the UK did. Ireland first applied in July ‘61, the U.K. & Denmark applied subsequently in August ‘61.

As such, we became the first (non-founding member) country to apply to join the ECs, so, to borrow an American expression, we can probably claim to be “the seventh state of the union”.

https://www.dfa.ie/media/dfa/alldfawebsitemedia/ourrolesandpolicies/irelandintheeu/ireland-in-the-eu-history.pdf

First Up

View wrote:

BIB - Actually we applied before the UK did. Ireland first applied in July ‘61, the U.K. & Denmark applied subsequently in August ‘61.

We didn't have much room to manoeuvre back then. Ireland's economy was hugely dependent on the UK and it was inconceivable we would cut what amounted to an umbilical cord. Us joining the EU was first considered in 1956 but we didn't apply because it looked like the UK wouldn't.

First Up

View wrote:

BIB - Actually we applied before the UK did. Ireland first applied in July ‘61, the U.K. & Denmark applied subsequently in August ‘61.

We didn't have much room to manoeuvre back then. Ireland's economy was hugely dependent on the UK and it was inconceivable we would cut what amounted to an umbilical cord. Us joining the EU was first considered in 1956 but we didn't apply because it looked like the UK wouldn't.

View

First Up wrote: »

We didn't have much room to manoeuvre back then. Ireland's economy was hugely dependent on the UK and it was inconceivable we would cut what amounted to an umbilical cord. Us joining the EU was first considered in 1956 but we didn't apply because it looked like the UK wouldn't.

True but we still got our application in first. We led, others followed. :-)

First Up

View wrote:

True but we still got our application in first. We led, others followed. :-)

Do you think the UK decided to apply after they saw that Ireland had?

beggars_bush

We will need another RoRo port along the east coast eg Arklow or Wicklow

They'll also have to upgrade the road from Rosslare to Waterford

rock22

beggars_bush wrote: »

We will need another RoRo port along the east coast eg Arklow or Wicklow

They'll also have to upgrade the road from Rosslare to Waterford

Could Waterford be developed as another port?

Infini

beggars_bush wrote: »

We will need another RoRo port along the east coast eg Arklow or Wicklow

They'll also have to upgrade the road from Rosslare to Waterford

If they can maintain the traffic they could actually look at reinstating a rail line to cork in the long term and upgrade the existing Dublin-Rosslare line as well. Theres serious room for expansion and we need to divest ourselves of being in anyway reliant on an unreliable neighbour.

Sam Russell

Rosslare currently has 30 sailings per week, or less than 5 per day. If they were evenly spaced, that is one sailing per 5 hours. That is not a huge load, but of course they will not be evenly spaced.

However, these are non-customs movements, just on and off.

Waterford is a LOLO port and obviously could be RORO with a small amount of infrastructure. LOLO lends itself more to rail than RORO.

We should look for more direct sailings to European ports, bypassing the UK landbridge. When the routing becomes normal, it lends itself to unaccompanied trailers, so reducing the cost by not having to pay a driver to sleep on board.

embraer170

Sam Russell wrote: »

Rosslare currently has 30 sailings per week, or less than 5 per day. If they were evenly spaced, that is one sailing per 5 hours. That is not a huge load, but of course they will not be evenly spaced.

However, these are non-customs movements, just on and off.

Waterford is a LOLO port and obviously could be RORO with a small amount of infrastructure. LOLO lends itself more to rail than RORO.

We should look for more direct sailings to European ports, bypassing the UK landbridge. When the routing becomes normal, it lends itself to unaccompanied trailers, so reducing the cost by not having to pay a driver to sleep on board.

Waterford port has severe access constraints including tidal limitations. Even with dredging and other infrastructure investment, I am not sure it would offer the flexibility that a regular RORO operation needs.

Sam Russell

embraer170 wrote: »

Waterford port has severe access constraints including tidal limitations. Even with dredging and other infrastructure investment, I am not sure it would offer the flexibility that a regular RORO operation needs.

The latest RORO vessels are much bigger than the ones that used to ply the Rosslare to Fishguard route. I was not aware of the tidal problems.

embraer170

The Master Plan consultation document gives quite a lot of info on Waterford port:
http://www.portofwaterford.com/uploads/download/Port_of_Waterford_Masterplan_WEB_%281%29.pdf

Eric Cartman

beggars_bush wrote: »

We will need another RoRo port along the east coast eg Arklow or Wicklow

They'll also have to upgrade the road from Rosslare to Waterford

Arent they upgrading dundalk with a view to running routes to holland from there

embraer170

The new Dundalk port is some fantasy project to increase land values. Dundalk (and arguably Dublin too) are not really well located for sailings to mainland Europe, adding sailing distance that could be covered quicker (and cheaper) by road.

breezy1985

Quick question as there are loads of posters seem to understand ports.
What kind of a port is Foynes. And would it be in the conversation if it wasn't on the Midwest coast ?

Sam Russell

breezy1985 wrote: »

Quick question as there are loads of posters seem to understand ports.
What kind of a port is Foynes. And would it be in the conversation if it wasn't on the Midwest coast ?

Airships.

Flit clicker

Why can’t they develop Rosslare and Dublin and increase sailings to France or Ostende?

An Ciarraioch

Flit clicker wrote: »

Why can’t they develop Rosslare and Dublin and increase sailings to France or Ostende?

They have developed routes with both Zeebrugge and Rotterdam, so they can be scaled up to begin with.

SleetAndSnow

Genuinely, living in Cork and not knowing, what sort of port is the Port Of Cork? Assumed once they relocated it out of the city (another few years) that it would be busy, but its not really talked about much and only seems to be used for grain really. Is it purely a location thing?

Eric Cartman

embraer170 wrote: »

The new Dundalk port is some fantasy project to increase land values. Dundalk (and arguably Dublin too) are not really well located for sailings to mainland Europe, adding sailing distance that could be covered quicker (and cheaper) by road.

Genuine question, how, rotterdam to dundalk is surely shorter than rosslare or dublin

kub

SleetAndSnow wrote: »

Genuinely, living in Cork and not knowing, what sort of port is the Port Of Cork? Assumed once they relocated it out of the city (another few years) that it would be busy, but its not really talked about much and only seems to be used for grain really. Is it purely a location thing?

Well we have Whitegate, the biggest ( AFAIK ) refinery in the country, so huge tanker Ships serve it.


There is this, which has been increased to a twice weekly service :


https://afloat.ie/port-news/port-of-cork/item/46097-new-route-to-mainland-europe-as-port-of-cork-is-to-welcome-launch-of-ro-ro-service-by-cldn


Container ships now seem to be big business in Cork:


https://www.portofcork.ie/index.cfm/page/shippingroutemap


https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/arid-31002293.html


https://www.imdo.ie/Home/site-area/news-events/industry-headlines/largest-container-ship-ever-arrives-port-cork



Brittany Ferries used to operate their RO RO service from Ringaskiddy to Santander but they relocated that to Rosslare and it now serves Bilbao instead of Santander. I have heard this was because they wanted to attract more trucks from the East Coast of Ireland to use this service ex Rosslare.


Rosslare is closer to French Ports than Cork is, so that is probably why there are no new RO RO routes like they have in Rosslare.