Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

ancapailldorcha

Since Brexit has now occurred and Irish trade with the rest of the EU may encounter logistical issues, I thought a separate thread from the main Brexit discussion may be warranted.

Please feel free to discuss issues with delays, ferries, transport & freight, etc here.

grayzer75

Received this earlier - hauliers will be turned back at Cairnryan if the GMR won't validate on the Scottish side:

Dear Customer,

From 00:01 on Friday 8 January 2021, a GOODS MOVEMENT REFERENCE (GMR) is mandatory to be able to ship from Cairnryan to Larne.

GMRs that fail to validate for whatever reason will result in vehicles having to leave the Port of Cairnryan to rectify the situation.

Register now for your account with BEEMS where:

Transport Operators can:
• Add the GMR to BEEMS
• Link the transport operator, ferry operator, and nominated driver to share GMR status information received from GVMS

Drivers will receive:
• Notification to proceed to check in at the ferry terminal
• Notification if an inspection is required or not prior to disembarking
• A link to a mobile-friendly web page where they can view movement full status

Please note GMRs are not required from Larne to Cairnryan until 1 July 2021.

weemcd

I live in Belfast and the M&S around the corner to me was half full last night.

Almost zero fresh fruit or veg
Almost no chicken
Only about a quarter of the usual stock of fish

Most other supplies seemed to be OK, as far as dry goods, bread, frozen stuff. But it certainly did not look good. They were in the process of restocking shelves so maybe I got in at a bad time, but I'm not filled with confidence things would be much better today...

grayzer75

weemcd wrote: »

I live in Belfast and the M&S around the corner to me was half full last night.

Almost zero fresh fruit or veg
Almost no chicken
Only about a quarter of the usual stock of fish

Most other supplies seemed to be OK, as far as dry goods, bread, frozen stuff. But it certainly did not look good. They were in the process of restocking shelves so maybe I got in at a bad time, but I'm not filled with confidence things would be much better today...

As regards fresh foods a lot of the supply chain is still out of sync from a transport point of view. It'll take weeks before it stabilises properly and everyone gets to grips with the documentation requirements.

Brussels Sprout

Anyone bought anything from amazon.co.uk this year? What sort of extra charges are there now?

Sam Russell

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Anyone bought anything from amazon.co.uk this year? What sort of extra charges are there now?

I want to buy from Amazon.

If I put in amazon.ie I get redirected to amazon.co.uk which is not what I want.

If I log into amazon.de I can find product, but I am not sure of delivery cost, and the same applies to amazon.fr as well.

Now I suspect that the goods will be sent from Sarl, wherever that is.

Is there anyway of contacting Amazon and finding out what the score is?

Some of their product comes from China, some from the UK and some from Europe, but it appears to be impossible to be certain where it will actually come from and therefor the nasty surprise of extra charges on delivery.

Until I am certain, I am certain I will not be ordering.

Dymo

Sam Russell wrote: »

I want to buy from Amazon.

If I put in amazon.ie I get redirected to amazon.co.uk which is not what I want.

If I log into amazon.de I can find product, but I am not sure of delivery cost, and the same applies to amazon.fr as well.

Now I suspect that the goods will be sent from Sarl, wherever that is.

Is there anyway of contacting Amazon and finding out what the score is?

Some of their product comes from China, some from the UK and some from Europe, but it appears to be impossible to be certain where it will actually come from and therefor the nasty surprise of extra charges on delivery.

Until I am certain, I am certain I will not be ordering.

What's your problem with ordering from amazon.co.uk ? There is no Irish Amazon.

I've orderd 4 times this year from Amazon I paid the duty costs but didn't have to pay UK VAT so not a big difference

sink

On 27th December I bought from Amazon.de from a third party seller, which unbeknownst to me were shipping from the UK. I've just received notification that my parcel is undeliverable and I will receive a full refund pending the return of the goods to the shipper. Frankly I think they should return my money immediately since the goods never even left the UK. My guess is the never filled out a customs declaration and probably don't know how.

Sam Russell

Dymo wrote: »

What's your problem with ordering from amazon.co.uk ? There is no Irish Amazon.

I've orderd 4 times this year from Amazon I paid the duty costs but didn't have to pay UK VAT so not a big difference

I want to know the cost before I order, not when I get Mr. Postie at my door, demanding money.

I think it is proper that Amazon at least makes it known where the goods are coming from and that duty/VAT is liable (or not) on delivery.

[I know Amazon charges Irish VAT, but that is not my point].

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now I suspect that the goods will be sent from Sarl, wherever that is.

Next to LLC and near Ltd

Sam Russell

L1011 wrote: »

Next to LLC and near Ltd

Does not solve my issue, only more confusing.

For example, if I purchase from amazon.de, could they ship it from the UK with the peril of duty and VAT to be added on delivery?

What control have I got over this?

I will not order until I know this.

Hurrache

Saw this today which I suspect will catch many out. I've had a fair bit of equipment delivered from them myself over the last year, and I checked this morning and see that when you go as far as the basket the summary will tell you it includes VAT, but without an actual VAT amount in the breakdown, and no message that you will be liable for tax upon delivery.

https://twitter.com/Noelle_OC/status/1347158625278636034

Tropheus

Hurrache wrote: »

Saw this today which I suspect will catch many out. I've had a fair bit of equipment delivered from them myself over the last year, and I checked this morning and see that when you go as far as the basket the summary will tell you it includes VAT, but without an actual VAT amount in the breakdown, and no message that you will be liable for tax upon delivery.

Saw that one earlier on Twitter. I presume he didn't pay VAT in the UK or at least shouldn't have if he's being charged Irish VAT on entry. Should UK retailers not be charging us UK VAT or is it up to us to claim it back?

I think holding off ordering from the UK for the moment is good advice until this becomes clearer.

Nody

Tropheus wrote: »

Saw that one earlier on Twitter. I presume he didn't pay VAT in the UK or at least shouldn't have if he's being charged Irish VAT on entry. Should UK retailers not be charging us UK VAT or is it up to us to claim it back?

I think holding off ordering from the UK for the moment is good advice until this becomes clearer.

The vendor can charge VAT if they want; it's free profit for them however as they get it back at the end of the year (this was done in many airports for example). He may however have been caught in a double whammy, they charged VAT before 1st Jan correctly (still in EU rules) but due to delivery after he's then liable for VAT in Ireland. I'd guess as a company they might be able to reclaim it somehow but for an individual I'd guess you'd be up a piss creek without recourse or have a long fight over it.

Gerry T

combat14 wrote:

just seen - looks prices here will go up...

As said this will mean alternative suppliers in the irish market yo fill the gap, hence keeping money in IRL. I dont see a down side

Gunmonkey

Amazon have this page, some info there.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=GCXL3PUGPE5UU8PD&pf_rd_r=1QRF8TQQP9VFEB4RW6Q3&pf_rd_p=f79ef303-031d-4ccc-b9f1-a18b1c4db3c6&pd_rd_r=b741f125-f557-4f2a-a863-d44e7b3e34d1&pd_rd_w=f33TU&pd_rd_wg=BERyd&ref_=pd_gw_unk

This part sounds like you might avoid a double tax issue, but who knows how it will shake out.

For deliveries of goods sold or fulfilled by Amazon to the Republic of Ireland, Amazon.co.uk will calculate the applicable VAT and Import Fees during the checkout process, as follows:

Enzokk

Nody wrote: »

I think you got it backwards; it will be towards WTO terms instead as they "give their companies a chance to be more competitive with less regulation to hold them back".

If companies lose money the answer is to put more barriers up? Sure for the uneducated this may be the answer, but for how long will the political class be able to ignore the people who starts suffering due to their decisions?

Sam Russell

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Amazon have this page, some info there.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/help/customer/display.html/?nodeId=GCXL3PUGPE5UU8PD&pf_rd_r=1QRF8TQQP9VFEB4RW6Q3&pf_rd_p=f79ef303-031d-4ccc-b9f1-a18b1c4db3c6&pd_rd_r=b741f125-f557-4f2a-a863-d44e7b3e34d1&pd_rd_w=f33TU&pd_rd_wg=BERyd&ref_=pd_gw_unk

This part sounds like you might avoid a double tax issue, but who knows how it will shake out.

I do not understand why Amazon cannot direct Irish customers to either the .de or .fr sites as a default. If all Irish sales were from one or other, delivery could be streamlined and the cost of delivery could become reasonable. When customs paperwork is taken into account, it should be better for them - after all, it should be seamless.

Well, it is one week into full Brexit, so early days.

paul71

Sam Russell wrote: »

I want to buy from Amazon.

If I put in amazon.ie I get redirected to amazon.co.uk which is not what I want.

If I log into amazon.de I can find product, but I am not sure of delivery cost, and the same applies to amazon.fr as well.

Now I suspect that the goods will be sent from Sarl, wherever that is.

Is there anyway of contacting Amazon and finding out what the score is?

Some of their product comes from China, some from the UK and some from Europe, but it appears to be impossible to be certain where it will actually come from and therefor the nasty surprise of extra charges on delivery.

Until I am certain, I am certain I will not be ordering.

Sarl = société à responsabilité limitée

Same as Limited Company in English = Ltd.

Sam Russell

paul71 wrote: »

Sarl = société à responsabilité limitée

Same as Limited Company in English = Ltd.

I thought the French was SA = société anonyme for PLC.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought the French was SA = société anonyme for PLC.

PLC and Ltd are not the same, though.

paul71

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought the French was SA = société anonyme for PLC.

Public Limited Companies, Private Limited Companies, Single member Limited companies, Companies Limited by shares, Companies Limited by Guarantee. Ltd is a catchall as is Sarl.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I thought the French was SA = société anonyme for PLC.

It’s a Luxembourg registered company.

Larbre34

Infini wrote: »

Wonder if they'll have the cop on to redeploy these ships to Rosslare - France.

No point, the Port at Rosslare is now over its capacity, both in terms of berthing docks and marshaling yards for trucks.

One bad stormy day will eff up the schedule big style.

Hurrache

Tropheus wrote: »

Saw that one earlier on Twitter. I presume he didn't pay VAT in the UK or at least shouldn't have if he's being charged Irish VAT on entry. Should UK retailers not be charging us UK VAT or is it up to us to claim it back?

I think holding off ordering from the UK for the moment is good advice until this becomes clearer.

It's from Microsoft so not what you'd say is a UK retailer as they have an Irish online store.

She purchased the items last year, when you buy from Microsoft you've always been charged Irish VAT, they just ship from the UK.

I reckon it's an error from MS and/or UPS, but it's bizarre that from this point they seem not to be Irish VAT registered.

I went as far as checkout using my last order from them and it's working out more expensive this time around when you factor VAT and duty in, seems to be a cock up on their behalf.

Widdensushi

Larbre34 wrote: »

No point, the Port at Rosslare is now over its capacity, both in terms of berthing docks and marshaling yards for trucks.

One bad stormy day will eff up the schedule big style.

Go from cork?

Imreoir2

Larbre34 wrote: »

No point, the Port at Rosslare is now over its capacity, both in terms of berthing docks and marshaling yards for trucks.

One bad stormy day will eff up the schedule big style.

It already sails from Rosslare though, right? They would just be shifting their existing capacity from the UK sailing to a continent sailing.

BorneTobyWilde

Weird that businesses can't get their head around the customs . They're in business.

WHEN is he VAT payable on an imported load ????/ At what point is that VAT collected, or is it just put into accounts with the company that is importing, and they do their vat return as normal calculating in that VAT ?

paul71

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Weird that businesses can't get their head around the customs . They're in business.

WHEN is he VAT payable on an imported load ????/ At what point is that VAT collected, or is it just put into accounts with the company that is importing, and they do their vat return as normal calculating in that VAT ?

Vat is paid at point of entry to the customs in order to release a shipment, the VAT is then reclaimed on the Bi Monthly VAT return.

BorneTobyWilde

paul71 wrote: »

Vat is paid at point of entry to the customs in order to release a shipment, the VAT is then reclaimed on the Bi Monthly VAT return.

Then how is it paid, not up to the driver of a truck to pay it surely, he's only the driver. How do they decide value of the load ?

paul71

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Then how is it paid, not up to the driver of a truck to pay it surely, he's only the driver. How do they decide value of the load ?

From invoice value with description of the goods and tariff codes, the VAT rate applicable is determined from the tariff codes and customs produce a SAD with the VAT value. Sometimes a customs agent if appointed by the importer will pay, other times the importer will pay.

I think larger importers may have sums on deposit with customs.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/customs-procedures/general-overview/single-administrative-document-sad_en

A SAD is a single administrative document.

Larbre34

Imreoir2 wrote: »

It already sails from Rosslare though, right? They would just be shifting their existing capacity from the UK sailing to a continent sailing.

Yes, but not if the intention is to redirect the Dublin-Holyhead freight to Rosslare for direct transfer to the Continent also.

grayzer75

Update from Revenue:

Good evening all,

Following extensive engagement with trade and business it is clear that significant numbers of businesses are submitting customs declarations, which returns the associated MRN’s within seconds and are using these to create and populate the relevant Pre-Boarding Notification (PBN) without any issues. Revenue ICT systems are fully operational and stable and working as intended, with thousands of customs declarations having been processed in the last number of days.
However, Revenue recognises the some businesses are experiencing difficulties in lodging their safety & security ENS declaration in respect of RoRo goods movements. In response, Revenue is implementing a temporary easement to alleviate these current difficulties. The following MRN can be used, from now, on a temporary basis as your ENS MRN where you are unable to generate same due to the absence of key information or because of other impediments that prevent you completing the ENS process. This will facilitate the completion of your customs formalities, the creation and population of the PBN and ultimately boarding of the ferry for movement of your goods.
ENS MRN detail = 21IE99900000000001
Take-up of this temporary facilitation will be a signal to Revenue that you need support. If you avail of this facilitation you are required to provide contact details to ENSenquiry@revenue.ie. An expert Revenue team has been set up to provide practical guidance, to trade and business to upskill relevant staff, to ensure all businesses currently experiencing difficulties in completing a valid ENS declaration can develop the capability to lodge ENS declarations after the temporary facilitation period. This team will be in place from 8 January and will be available from 8am to 8pm.
We expect trade and business with genuine difficulties that are impeding their ability to complete the ENS process to engage with Revenue in a cooperative endeavour to overcome their difficulties. A failure to engage may result in this temporary easement being withdrawn, so early engagement with Revenue is strongly encouraged.
Please remember that the existing helpline channels remain open for queries, these are
ENS related queries to: ENSenquiries@revenue.ie
Systems queries to: eCustoms@revenue.ie
PBN queries to: PBNqueries@revenue.ie
General Brexit queries to: brexitqueries@revenue.ie
Brexit National helpline: 01-73383685



Kind Regards,

Ray Ryan

Brexit Unit
Customs Division
Web: www.revenue.ie/brexit

lawred2

Been reading that a lot of UK retailers only waking up to rules of origin requirements when shipping to Ireland..

Can't just sell on their Asian imports to Ireland and wherever..

Plenty opportunity for Irish importers..

Seems like many bought in to the notion that a deal would mean pretty much everything stays the same..

cml387

Just FYI, there is an extensive thread in Consumer Issues dealing specifically with Amazon and Brexit.

CelticRambler

lawred2 wrote: »

Been reading that a lot of UK retailers only waking up to rules of origin requirements when shipping to Ireland..

Can't just sell on their Asian imports to Ireland and wherever.

This is an area where both the EU and the UK Gov't have been very slow to issue really clear guidance. I queried this very point on this thread just after the deal was announced, particularly with regard to (e.g.) Amazon Marketplace sellers using the .co.uk platform to sell Asian imports back into the EU. Despite being somewhat primed (:rolleyes:) to pick up on any such clarification, I'm hearing nothing in plain English from either side ... and I'm still being offered products of non-EU, non-GB origin for purchase from the UK.

They can sell much of their Asian imports into Ireland, they will just be subject to customs, duties, standards certification etc. where appropriate.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

They can sell much of their Asian imports into Ireland, they will just be subject to customs, duties, standards certification etc. where appropriate.

Yes, but do they know that and are they doing it? Or are they sticking all their non-GB-made products into a parcel, making a vague, inaccurate declaration on the CN22/23 form and sending it through the post as if nothing has changed?

Peregrinus

Deleted User wrote: »

They can sell much of their Asian imports into Ireland, they will just be subject to customs, duties, standards certification etc. where appropriate.

It's the importer who is liable for any duty, VAT, etc. In a consumer transaction that's the consumer in Ireland who has ordered the stuff. You'll order (and pay for) good worth say €150 and then get a note saying that there's a package waiting for delivery and you need to pay (say) €9 duty, €32 VAT and a handling fee of €18 before they'll deliver.

Of course this will start to adversely affect the UK sellers fairly quickly; Irish customers will stop ordering from them. But it's the first instance it's the Irish consumers who will be hit with delays, taxes and charges.

View

Hurrache wrote: »

Saw this today which I suspect will catch many out. I've had a fair bit of equipment delivered from them myself over the last year, and I checked this morning and see that when you go as far as the basket the summary will tell you it includes VAT, but without an actual VAT amount in the breakdown, and no message that you will be liable for tax upon delivery.

https://twitter.com/Noelle_OC/status/1347158625278636034

If she ordered from an EU based online store and the company insisted on shipping from a U.K. based distribution centre, she should try taking them to the Small Claims Court.

The company have had years to figure out that they would need to supply EU based customers from EU based distribution centres to avoid issues for their customers with customs. They can’t say they didn’t know what was coming since this was flagged for years.

rock22

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's the importer who is liable for any duty, VAT, etc. In a consumer transaction that's the consumer in Ireland who has ordered the stuff. You'll order (and pay for) good worth say €150 and then get a note saying that there's a package waiting for delivery and you need to pay (say) €9 duty, €32 VAT and a handling fee of €18 before they'll deliver.

Of course this will start to adversely affect the UK sellers fairly quickly; Irish customers will stop ordering from them. But it's the first instance it's the Irish consumers who will be hit with delays, taxes and charges.

If they are aware they are buying from the UK.

i use Ebay a good lot, Ebay.ie,. In the past i have used UK suppliers on Ebay.
Now i wish to restrict myself to items within the EU , but Ebay is still putting UK suppliers into EU. So I can select a seller, think it is EU and only find out it is outside EU when I click to pay. This is inconvenient at the least but is also very misleading. Ebay will not cancel these sales so you are relying on the goodwill of the sellers.

I have contacted the Irish CCPC , who have washed there hand of it as Ebay.ie is not an Irish registered company. I have contacted the ECC-Ireland but they wont take action either on a general issue like this, they want to deal with an actual purchase and they require everything in writing.

So EU have not made it easy for Irish consumers to restrict their purchased to EU.

peter kern

Gerry T wrote: »

As said this will mean alternative suppliers in the irish market yo fill the gap, hence keeping money in IRL. I dont see a down side

i agree maybe now it makes more sense for irish online retailers

but for the buyer ,it will mean less choice and less competiton and volume is higher prices .
with the low pound most of the times i did buy from uk sellers.

not to mention the 2nd hand market that has been kind of ruined for irish buyer. many germans dont use pay pal and shipping costs from france and italy scandinavia usually sky high. and the irish market is just too small

fly_agaric

grayzer75 wrote: »

Update from Revenue:

RTE news article:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0108/1188441-revenue-eases-customs-requirements/

"However, we expected challenges such as this to arise where trade and or business didn't make the necessary advance planning arrangements that we have strongly advocated over at least the last two years," Revenue said.

"We made it very clear in our engagements with industry that real, permanent and immediate changes would arise. Those who are having difficulties is the outworking of that warning," it said.

Amazing stuff there. The lively hand of the state vs dead hand of the (formerly?) free market?

Looks like many caught napping on something that has really been on the way since that Theresa May speech (2017) about UK leaving main EU structures as part of "Brexit means Brexit" (Customs Union & Single Market).

Seems refeshers may be needed that though we speak English as our mother tongue, watch UK telly + follow all the UK sports, we are not actually part of the United Kingdom!

grayzer75

fly_agaric wrote: »

RTE news article:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0108/1188441-revenue-eases-customs-requirements/



Amazing stuff there. The lively hand of the state vs dead hand of the (formerly?) free market?

Looks like many caught napping on something that has really been on the way since that Theresa May speech (2017) about UK leaving main EU structures as part of "Brexit means Brexit" (Customs Union & Single Market).

Seems refeshers may be needed that though we speak English as our mother tongue, watch UK telly + follow all the UK sports, we are not actually part of the United Kingdom!

It's an absolute sh*tshow at the moment and complete silence from the government. There is now less than 5% of the usual levels of freight coming into the country and all the hauliers are tearing their hair out.

A full load of chicken was Ireland bound yesterday and had to be returned back to the processor because the vet wouldn't seal the trailer at the distribution centre over a labelling issue (labelled as EU product rather than UK) - every box on the 22 pallets have to be relabelled as a result.

lawred2

grayzer75 wrote: »

It's an absolute sh*tshow at the moment and complete silence from the government. There is now less than 5% of the usual levels of freight coming into the country and all the hauliers are tearing their hair out.

A full load of chicken was Ireland bound yesterday and had to be returned back to the processor because the vet wouldn't seal the trailer at the distribution centre over a labelling issue (labelled as EU product rather than UK) - every box on the 22 pallets have to be relabelled as a result.

that an established fact?

Gerry T

grayzer75 wrote:

It's an absolute sh*tshow at the moment and complete silence from the government. There is now less than 5% of the usual levels of freight coming into the country and all the hauliers are tearing their hair out.

From what Govt, do you mean the UK ? It seems irish exports are moving to the uk far better than the other way, problem sits on the UK side it would seem.
Your talking about UK freight to IRL, most EU freight to IRL has been moved to direct shipping as IRL did make changes over the past 4 yrs.

grayzer75 wrote:

A full load of chicken was Ireland bound yesterday and had to be returned back to the processor because the vet wouldn't seal the trailer at the distribution centre over a labelling issue (labelled as EU product rather than UK) - every box on the 22 pallets have to be relabelled as a result.

like i said UK problem, nothing we can do. But im sure the express and sun will be along soon blaming the bullying EU on the changes to uk exports to punish them or how france is delaying everthing deliberatly.

grayzer75

lawred2 wrote: »

that an established fact?

From haulier movements point of view yes - nothing is moving and they're losing their bollox because of it.

I'll put it to you this way, never mind Covid but now would be a good time to buy a few extra bog rolls just in case.

It's all going to escalate very shortly if there's not a quick improvement.

grayzer75

Gerry T wrote: »

From what Govt, do you mean the UK ? It seems irish exports are moving to the uk far better than the other way, problem sits on the UK side it would seem.
Your talking about UK freight to IRL, most EU freight to IRL has been moved to direct shipping as IRL did make changes over the past 4 yrs.

like i said UK problem, nothing we can do. But im sure the express and sun will be along soon blaming the bullying EU on the changes to uk exports to punish them or how france is delaying everthing deliberatly.

Most of EU to Ireland still comes through UK as there is nowhere near enough capacity on direct routes and the landbridge is quicker/cheaper.

There won't be much movement from Irl to UK very soon as all the trailers are sitting in the UK at them moment.

Hurrache

grayzer75 wrote: »

There is now less than 5% of the usual levels of freight coming into the country and all the hauliers are tearing their hair out.

I doubt your claim. However there was always an expected reduction in freight because of the increased number of freight leading up to December to both stockpile and get ahead of any possible delays in the new year.

grayzer75

Hurrache wrote: »

I doubt your claim. However there was always an expected reduction in freight because of the increased number of freight leading up to December to both stockpile and get ahead of any possible delays in the new year.

Doubt all you want.

Example from this morning: Lidl Carrickmacross - staff arrive into store at 5am for delivery to replenish stocks of produce to be told the truck is still at the Doncaster distribution centre in the UK. Staff sent home at 9am rather than their usual finish of 2pm.

Hurrache

I'm in contact with someone on a Brexit team for a company and he regularly mentions how many of their trucks are stopped. It's happening, but certainly not at 5% of what it was previously.

1 truck missing from Lidl doesn't mean that there's less than 5% of shipments getting through.