Should ownership of cats be banned?

OpenYourEyes

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I never said they should be banned!

Also they were introduced by our predecessors, not by 'us', so it wouldn't be hypocritical for anyone in 2020 to suggest measures to reduce their impact. Same reason it's not hypocritical fore to say we should correct loads of the environmental damage done in thedays, weeks, years, decades and century before now

And my approach is that we should learn from and try to correct our mistakes. You seem to have done sort of anarchist viewpoint of perpetuating the damage being done? We shouldn't apologise, we shouldn't take steps to minimise the impact over time, the literal cat is out of the metaphorical bag and we should just leave it be?

All fair points and very well made.
You never suggested they should be banned? (checks title of thread). OK.
How do we know that trimming of the small bird population isn't serving an important ecological purpose?
What will be the consequences of several billion extra birds by year one, increasing exponentially from there?
The idea of a songbird utopia where every garden is filled with colour may be nice for us looking out our double glazed windows but what effect on the insect population?
I'm reminded of the Chinese govt. idea to cull sparrows because they ate too much grain. Resulted in massive famine because the sudden imbalance in the eco system.
If domestic cats are taking that amount of birds out of the equation every year and everything is going along fine, maybe we don't need to tamper with it.

magicbastarder

Deleted User wrote: »

You never suggested they should be banned? (checks title of thread). OK.

not sure a thread title chosen by a different poster has anything to do with your response to OpenYourEyes?

re your comment 'everything is going along fine', i would point you to shifting baseline syndrome.
and cats are not the be all and end all of the problems facing songbirds; and if anyone suggested that (which i don't think they did) that'd be erroneous to the point of absurdity.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

not sure a thread title chosen by a different poster has anything to do with your response to OpenYourEyes?

re your comment 'everything is going along fine', i would point you to shifting baseline syndrome.
and cats are not the be all and end all of the problems facing songbirds; and if anyone suggested that (which i don't think they did) that'd be erroneous to the point of absurdity.

I was referring to the op in the post replied to. Regarding the main thrust of your post I'm afraid I don't know who is suggesting that so not really sure what your point is magicbastarder. You seem to have jumped into attack mode without clearly thinking out your argument.

magicbastarder

responding to your post is not an attack.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

responding to your post is not an attack.

I didn't say you were attacking me, I said you were jumping to attack mode, a difference that is perhaps too subtle for you to understand, but I doubt it. I think you are just looking for an argument that you aren't going to get here.

OpenYourEyes

Deleted User wrote: »

All fair points and very well made.
You never suggested they should be banned? (checks title of thread). OK.

Check who started the thread and gave it that title while you're there :rolleyes:

Deleted User wrote: »

How do we know that trimming of the small bird population isn't serving an important ecological purpose?

I have yet to meet an ornithologist, ecologist, zoologist, birder or naturalist who has ever suggested this - and i know plenty, so this outlandish supposition would require at least some supporting logic or evidence that I have yet to see. That logic/evidence would also have to counter-act what we know from centuries of introducing invasive species to places they shouldn't be, and the damage that ensues.

Deleted User wrote: »

The idea of a songbird utopia where every garden is filled with colour may be nice for us looking out our double glazed windows but what effect on the insect population?

Native predators do not negatively impact populations of native prey, unless there's damage elsewhere in the ecosystem. So those insects have evolved alongside Blue Tits and Robins for millennia without any problems.

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm reminded of the Chinese govt. idea to cull sparrows because they ate too much grain. Resulted in massive famine because the sudden imbalance in the eco system.

This proves my point, not yours!

Deleted User wrote: »

If domestic cats are taking that amount of birds out of the equation every year and everything is going along fine, maybe we don't need to tamper with it.

Everything is not going along fine. It's only going along fine if you're a cat owner. Not if you're concerned with the populations of native species, or concerned with the inherent cruelty of turning a blind eye to avoidable injury and death of native species, or concerned with people taking responsibility for their pets.

arccosh

my cat decimated a rats nest there recently.... I'm giving it a plus 1 for that....

The other cat hunts dust and spiders, and comes inside to take a ****e.... she's a strange one

jimmycrackcorm

badaj0z wrote: »

The Biggest Bird Killers
I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats.

I hope you don't research on what humans do otherwise you'll be asking for us to be banned....

Storm 10

badaj0z wrote: »

The Biggest Bird Killers
I found the figures below
with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications
that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the
figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead
shot. It is time to look at banning cats.

If you think because you don't like cats they should be banned you are not living in the real World, it would never happen there are millions of cat owners including me who like cats , mine is indoors but out in the garden in Summer with us never bothers the birds when they land on feeders or the ground .

OpenYourEyes

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

I have yet to meet an ornithologist, ecologist, zoologist, birder or naturalist who has ever suggested this - and i know plenty, so this outlandish supposition would require at least some supporting logic or evidence that I have yet to see. That logic/evidence would also have to counter-act what we know from centuries of introducing invasive species to places they shouldn't be, and the damage that ensues.



Native predators do not negatively impact populations of native prey, unless there's damage elsewhere in the ecosystem. So those insects have evolved alongside Blue Tits and Robins for millennia without any problems.


Everything is not going along fine. It's only going along fine if you're a cat owner. Not if you're concerned with the populations of native species, or concerned with the inherent cruelty of turning a blind eye to avoidable injury and death of native species, or concerned with people taking responsibility for their pets.

So adding 4 billion new birds per year and increasing that exponentially going forward will have no effect???
Of course it would.
The kind of people who see the ecosystem in terms of pretty, cute, cuddly animals versus the nasty ugly ones are always trying to interfere with the natural order of things.
Lets have loads more robins and sparrows and less of those nasty ugly rats and creepy crawlies.
This nonsense of a songbird utopia is childish in the extreme.

Cats would be puzzled by this thread title by the way.
Everyone knows that people don't own cats, they just provide them with accommodation and food.:pac:

OpenYourEyes

Deleted User wrote: »

So adding 4 billion new birds per year and increasing that exponentially going forward will have no effect???

That's not how this works! I'd love to have the time lecture you on population dynamics, but essentially if you remove cat predation as an issue, you'll likely have more songbirds, but that increase won't equal the number that are lost to cats each year. Other (natural) causes of mortality and population limitation will kick-in. The point is that there are natural ways that populations are limited and should be limited, and cat predation is not one of them.

Deleted User wrote: »

The kind of people who see the ecosystem in terms of pretty, cute, cuddly animals versus the nasty ugly ones are always trying to interfere with the natural order of things.

CATS ARE NOT PART OF THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS IN IRELAND. THATS THE POINT! You're the one arguing for keeping the cute fluffy things - you want to allow free reign for something that shouldn't be here, because it's cute and cuddly!

Deleted User wrote: »

This nonsense of a songbird utopia is childish in the extreme.

Part of my work every year is engaging with people as to why they should appreciate and look after species like large gulls, birds of prey and even corvids - species that people don't find attractive or cute or cuddly, but rather noisy and annoying and have an over-exaggerated fear of the damage they do to things like songbird populations and a lack of appreciation for the role they have in the ecosystem. I am in no way working towards a songbird utopia. Your determined arguing despite poor knowledge of the counter-points raised to you, and clearly misunderstanding some of the points you're putting forward and the examples you're using, is childish however.

You can simply say "listen, I don't mind a few native species being reduced in number because I think cats are great, but not great enough that I'd want to keep it inside the whole time." - that's what your argument boils down to, and it's an opinion - so you're not wrong. It's just that there are lots of people who disagree with that opinion.

OpenYourEyes

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

CATS ARE NOT PART OF THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS IN IRELAND. THATS THE POINT!

I'm afraid they are. You can't pick and choose what species to accept as natural and which to reject. How far back is your line across which a creature becomes accepted as native? 200 years? 500? 1000?
If wolves are reintroduced would you say they are part of the natural order because they were here a certain time ago?

Things change. Nature evolves and adapts. That's the natural order of things.

Cats are here to stay. Best just to get used to it.

magicbastarder

A pet is not a wild animal. It's not a natural part of the ecosystem.

badaj0z

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I hope you don't research on what humans do otherwise you'll be asking for us to be banned....

No need, lots of evidence in the news every day plus the entire course of human history.

storker

The OP certainly paints an apocalyptic picture, but one wonders why the emphasis was on a comparison of deaths by cat vs deaths by shooting instead of population numbers as a whole.

I was interested to find this: https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/IWM115.pdf (COUNTRYSIDE BIRD SURVEY: STATUS AND TRENDS OF COMMON AND WIDESPREAD BREEDING BIRDS 1998-2016)

Some quotes:

"CBS [Countryside Bird Survey] charts the history of changes in common terrestrial bird communities in Ireland captured through annual monitoring of over 300 1 km squares documenting trends for 51 species that are associated with a variety of habitats including woodland, scrubland, farmland, heathland and bogs as well as around human sites in urban, suburban and rural areas."

"Over the 18-year period since CBS began, population trend analyses indicate that 47% of species are increasing, 27% of species are stable and approximately 26% of our common and widespread birds are in decline. The most pronounced of these declines are those of Grey Wagtail, Stock Dove, Swift, Greenfinch and Kestrel."

On the reasons for worst declines in population:

Grey Wagtail: "...the dramatic decline in Grey Wagtail numbers likely due to cold-weather impacts from the successive winters of 2009/10 and 2010/1"

Stock Dove: "The pattern and scale of decline is thought to be due to the loss of mixed farming in the west and midlands"

Greenfinch: "Trichomonas gallinae parasite linked to the severe decline in Greenfinch numbers." N.B. The report also mentions that "There is also an increased risk predation for Greenfinches feeding in gardens, with cat-related mortality one of the leading causes of death reported by observers (Pavisse et al., 2019)" This is the only reference to cats in the 145-page report.

Kestrel: "Causes for the decline of Kestrel in Ireland in recent years are likely centred around prey availability, agricultural changes and reduced feeding opportunities"

Swift: "...loss of traditional nesting habitats."

Regarding the species mentioned in the OP, the reports figures show:

Blue Tit: +13% population change 1998-2016
House Sparrow: +82% population change 1998-2016
Blackbird: +18.3% population change 1998-2016
Starlings: -7.1% population change 1998-2016

Not quite the holocaust hinted at in the OP.

Regarding pressures and threats, the report listed the following:

• Climate change in and outside Ireland
• Agriculture and Forestry including use of pesticides and loss of hedgerows
• Urbanisation and development
• Plant and animal pathogens and pests (this does not include predation by other animals)
• Hunting, shooting and accidental killing
• Illegal shooting, killing and poisoning
• Loss of habitat
• Severe weather

"The report concludes with an assessment of the current pressures and threats facing Ireland’s common and widespread breeding birds. Relevant to the current Article 12 reporting period of 2013 – 2018, only one high level pressure and threat was identified and relates to the Trichomonas gallinae parasite linked to the severe decline in Greenfinch numbers since it was first recorded in Ireland over 10 years ago. Additional pressures and threats determined to be at the moderate scale, were identified in relation to: agriculture and forestry, which include inter alia changes to grazing and grassland management and the use of pesticides; development (e.g. loss of traditional nesting habitats of Swift), and climate change."

Note the lack of emphasis on cat predation.

mattcullen

storker wrote: »

The OP certainly paints an apocalyptic picture, but one wonders why the emphasis was on a comparison of deaths by cat vs deaths by shooting instead of population numbers as a whole.

I was interested to find this: https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/IWM115.pdf (COUNTRYSIDE BIRD SURVEY: STATUS AND TRENDS OF COMMON AND WIDESPREAD BREEDING BIRDS 1998-2016)

Some quotes:

"CBS [Countryside Bird Survey] charts the history of changes in common terrestrial bird communities in Ireland captured through annual monitoring of over 300 1 km squares documenting trends for 51 species that are associated with a variety of habitats including woodland, scrubland, farmland, heathland and bogs as well as around human sites in urban, suburban and rural areas."

"Over the 18-year period since CBS began, population trend analyses indicate that 47% of species are increasing, 27% of species are stable and approximately 26% of our common and widespread birds are in decline. The most pronounced of these declines are those of Grey Wagtail, Stock Dove, Swift, Greenfinch and Kestrel."

On the reasons for worst declines in population:

Grey Wagtail: "...the dramatic decline in Grey Wagtail numbers likely due to cold-weather impacts from the successive winters of 2009/10 and 2010/1"

Stock Dove: "The pattern and scale of decline is thought to be due to the loss of mixed farming in the west and midlands"

Greenfinch: "Trichomonas gallinae parasite linked to the severe decline in Greenfinch numbers." N.B. The report also mentions that "There is also an increased risk predation for Greenfinches feeding in gardens, with cat-related mortality one of the leading causes of death reported by observers (Pavisse et al., 2019)" This is the only reference to cats in the 145-page report.

Kestrel: "Causes for the decline of Kestrel in Ireland in recent years are likely centred around prey availability, agricultural changes and reduced feeding opportunities"

Swift: "...loss of traditional nesting habitats."

Regarding the species mentioned in the OP, the reports figures show:

Blue Tit: +13% population change 1998-2016
House Sparrow: +82% population change 1998-2016
Blackbird: +18.3% population change 1998-2016
Starlings: -7.1% population change 1998-2016

Not quite the holocaust hinted at in the OP.

Regarding pressures and threats, the report listed the following:

• Climate change in and outside Ireland
• Agriculture and Forestry including use of pesticides and loss of hedgerows
• Urbanisation and development
• Plant and animal pathogens and pests (this does not include predation by other animals)
• Hunting, shooting and accidental killing
• Illegal shooting, killing and poisoning
• Loss of habitat
• Severe weather

"The report concludes with an assessment of the current pressures and threats facing Ireland’s common and widespread breeding birds. Relevant to the current Article 12 reporting period of 2013 – 2018, only one high level pressure and threat was identified and relates to the Trichomonas gallinae parasite linked to the severe decline in Greenfinch numbers since it was first recorded in Ireland over 10 years ago. Additional pressures and threats determined to be at the moderate scale, were identified in relation to: agriculture and forestry, which include inter alia changes to grazing and grassland management and the use of pesticides; development (e.g. loss of traditional nesting habitats of Swift), and climate change."

Note the lack of emphasis on cat predation.

Cheers for posting that information. Must check out that report. Interested not so much with regards to the subject matter of the thread but on the population status of the species. I didn't realise sparrow populations had increased so much. I was under the impression they had declined. Maybe that's just the UK.

Seems a lot of our garden birds are actually doing quite well.

OpenYourEyes

storker wrote: »

Note the lack of emphasis on cat predation.

Disregarding the OPs post, but speaking on this more generally, just because cat predation might not be limiting species at population level doesn't mean it's not something we should be trying to address or improve on. Obviously we'll never ban cats, and we'll likely never even bring in a licensing system like we have for dogs, but it's worth highlighting to cat owners the problems associated with free-roaming cats and encouraging behaviours to reduce those problems.

Grolschevik

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Disregarding the OPs post, but speaking on this more generally, just because cat predation might not be limiting species at population level doesn't mean it's not something we should be trying to address or improve on. Obviously we'll never ban cats, and we'll likely never even bring in a licensing system like we have for dogs, but it's worth highlighting to cat owners the problems associated with free-roaming cats and encouraging behaviours to reduce those problems.

That's possibly a point we could all agree on. Even/given if cat predation is negligible and not problematic on a population level, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good thing. But we're into ethics there.

Antares35

We live rural. Any small animals caught by my cats (and I'd be hesitant to applaud their abilities to be honest) is a drop in the ocean here.

Ban the prícks coming around trampling on private property shooting deer for fun.

Feisar

Antares35 wrote: »

We live rural. Any small animals caught by my cats (and I'd be hesitant to applaud their abilities to be honest) is a drop in the ocean here.

Ban the prícks coming around trampling on private property shooting deer for fun.

I never shoot deer where I don’t have permission. You should report poachers to the Gardaí.

Feisar

Feisar wrote: »

Neighbours cats shít in my garden so yea they should be banned. It’s cruel that I will have to trap them and drown them now. Can’t risk the young lad going blind because of them.

Hopefully he grows up with better sight than his Daddy.

GSBellew

Water John wrote: »

A person can own a dog, nobody can claim to own a cat.

Domestic cats have maimed how many children?

Domestic dogs have maimed how many children?

Answer away there as you are inferring owning to controlling.

OpenYourEyes

mattcullen wrote: »

Seems a lot of our garden birds are actually doing quite well.

Urban habitats are under-represented in that report, so it would be interesting to examine population trends in urban environments and specific towns/cities to see if the trend differs. Something that should be possible from the Irish Garden Bird Survey dataset in the future.

magicbastarder

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Urban habitats are under-represented in that report

cf:
"A high proportion of 1kmsquares surveyed in CBS are entirely or at least partly within farmland habitats"

Storm 10

I will just drop this here

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/waterford-farmer-loses-almost-half-his-flock-in-vicious-dog-attack/ar-BB1bY1fP

badaj0z

Let us ban dog ownership as well or just allow dogs that do not defecate.

Scotty #

Storm 10 wrote: »

I will just drop this here

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/waterford-farmer-loses-almost-half-his-flock-in-vicious-dog-attack/ar-BB1bY1fP

There are already laws in place to cover this.

Storm 10

Scotty # wrote: »

There are already laws in place to cover this.

And did you ever see them being applied, dogs together where sheep are involved are a killers even your quite home dog gets involved.

Scotty #

Storm 10 wrote: »

And did you ever see them being applied, dogs together where sheep are involved are a killers even your quite home dog gets involved.

Yes, it's applied all the time.

Not all dogs will kill sheep just the same as not all cats will kill birds.