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Should ownership of cats be banned?

badaj0z

The Biggest Bird Killers
I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats.

https://www.birdguides.com/news/uk-s...public%20alike.

The decision comes despite the well-known negative impacts of lead poisoning in both humans and wildlife. More than 6,000 tonnes of lead ammunition are fired over the UK countryside every year in areas where birds feed, and are left behind strewn on the ground. Birds often mistake tiny shot pellets for grit or seeds, and ingest them. Up to 100,000 waterbirds in the UK die every year through ingesting poisonous lead shot. Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...0been%20caught.

The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.
This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably:
• house sparrows
• blue tits
• blackbirds
• starlings
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[Deleted User]

Graces7 wrote: »

[QUOTE=OpenYourEyes;115553519

CATS ARE NOT PART OF THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS IN IRELAND. THATS THE POINT! You're the one arguing for keeping the cute fluffy things - you want to allow free reign for something that shouldn't be here, because it's cute and cuddly!"

They have been here thousands of years so are valid and a part of our ecology now.

How do you feel about mink?

There's no mink killing birds or ****ting in my garden

jelem

Scotty # wrote: »

Rats have several natural predators, fox, stoat, pine marten, heron, owl, several other species of birds of prey...

Domestic cats are not in the least bit vital to our ecology!

They're responsible for 1000's of our wild bird population being killed every year. They might keep rats from your back door but they have no significant impact on the overall rat population.

another whom fails to see the rat problem that is somewhat held back by cats

Jizique

badaj0z wrote: »

The Biggest Bird Killers
I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats.

https://www.birdguides.com/news/uk-s...public%20alike.

The decision comes despite the well-known negative impacts of lead poisoning in both humans and wildlife. More than 6,000 tonnes of lead ammunition are fired over the UK countryside every year in areas where birds feed, and are left behind strewn on the ground. Birds often mistake tiny shot pellets for grit or seeds, and ingest them. Up to 100,000 waterbirds in the UK die every year through ingesting poisonous lead shot. Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...0been%20caught.

The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.
This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably:
• house sparrows
• blue tits
• blackbirds
• starlings
badaj0z is offline Report Post

I would have less of a problem with cats if they would tackle the magpie and seagull infestation rather than sparrows, tits and blackbirds

Scotty #

Graces7 wrote: »

There is no other local predator against the rats. nature knows that.

Rats have several natural predators, fox, stoat, pine marten, heron, owl, several other species of birds of prey...

Graces7 wrote: »

And they are a vital part of ecology here.

Domestic cats are not in the least bit vital to our ecology!

They're responsible for 1000's of our wild bird population being killed every year. They might keep rats from your back door but they have no significant impact on the overall rat population.

Stihl waters

1874 wrote: »

Didnt see this, 30 rats in 3 years, is negligible in terms of the rats that reproduced. What you have basically said is that cats have not even caught 1 rat per month.

.

I don't care how fast rats reproduce, what I care about is that they're not living in my shed or sitting on my washing machine when I go into the shed, the cats keep the vermin away and that's what they're here for, rats are welcome to do whatever they want as long as they're not invading my space, so yes my cats don't seem to be doing much rat catching at the moment but their very presence is enough of a deterrent

1874

Stihl waters wrote: »

So you're telling me the 30 plus rats that have ended up outside my door in the last 3 years have been dreamt up by me all along, just 2 weeks ago 2 were lying side by side on my front step like trophy kills, also no more rats sitting on my washing machine or freezer when I go into the shed, I have a jack Russell dog who would try and play with a rat rather than kill it, I've tried everything from poisoning, high frequency transmitters, live bait cages and the rats kept coming back until I got my cats

Didnt see this, 30 rats in 3 years, is negligible in terms of the rats that reproduced. What you have basically said is that cats have not even caught 1 rat per month.

eviltwin wrote: »

Before we got our first cat we had mice. We saw just the one but could hear them in the walls. Within a few weeks of the cats arrival they were gone and haven’t been back. No mouse lives lost - just knowing the cat was there was enough

Mice are a different thing altogether, I never said cats wouldnt go for them

weldoninhio wrote: »

Lets go one further. Should birds be banned as they kill insects??

They are both more part of the natural order and balance of things, insects serve many purposes.

_Brian wrote: »

Cats provide essential control of rodents. On our farm for example they are a great natural way of keeping mice and rats under control.

Cities and towns would quickly be overrun with rodents without the multitude of cats roaming about cleaning up.

Rats and mice would be less prevalant if there were less sources of food and places for them to nest. Based on how I see people manage food waste, which should be reduced/limited for other reasons, its down to laziness, lack of concern, ignorance.

2 species on this island should be removed with certainty, Mink and Grey squirrels, after that domestic Cat owners should be either obliged to neuter/spay their cats or pay to allow them to breed/pay for cleaning up the mess, ie pay to trap, neuter and release feral cats in their council area, cats that are apparently domesticated and arent chipped that are caught while catching ferals, should be neutered/spayed and rehomed.
There are and have been recently around 20 feral cats near us in our suburban area and they will continue to multiply as long as people are over feeding them at the same time I have seen an increase in rat droppings which is caused by how people dispose of food waste and how and where they are feeding feral cats, where they are less likely to deal with rodents IMO, At the same time, over the past few years, I have seen a noticeable decline in the amount of small birds.

I believe it is anecdotal or incidental where cats are deemed to have caught or even have caught rats. Even the poster in my reply unintentionally admits to this when they say their cat/s caught 10 rats per year (ie 30 over 3yrs), that is negligible, when 2 rats can breed over a 1000 rats alone.

magicbastarder

Graces7 wrote: »

Nature grows and evolves and adapts to whatever we do.

uh, have you seen much news about nature over the last few years or decades?

Jim_Hodge

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

@Graces7 - we're literally in the middle of a mass extinction event caused by humans. Species are gone from Ireland and indeed the world that will never return. The "nature bouncing back/adapting" argument has no basis in reality, no matter how much 'faith' you have in it.

Based on some reading I'm doing now nature does adapt but more often than not at the expense of species.
Cats can never be considered part of our ecology. They are pets or feral at best and neither of those categories fit in a natural ecology.
Cat owners who allow their cats free reign usually make every excuse under the sun for their behaviour but it still doesn't make it right.

OpenYourEyes

@Graces7 - we're literally in the middle of a mass extinction event caused by humans. Species are gone from Ireland and indeed the world that will never return. The "nature bouncing back/adapting" argument has no basis in reality, no matter how much 'faith' you have in it.

tjhook

I've no problem with people owning cats. But I have a problem with people's cats coming into my garden, crapping and killing things. If you can't/won't stop your cats doing that, then don't keep cats.

Graces7

[QUOTE=OpenYourEyes;115658119]That's your opinion, which you're entitled to, but it goes against everything we know from ecology, zoology and conservation. All of those disciplines agree that they cats are not a valid part of our ecology. Their presence here is artificial in every sense.

Similarly, Mink are an invasive species that should not be here and do a huge amount of farm - more harm than cats, because they cause huge amounts of damage to rare breeding species in many parts of the country.[/QUOTE]

Theoretical non-sense. You have no faith in nature 's vast ability to adapt and survive.

As we have seen most of the "articles" and " theories" etc in this thread are inaccurate and out of touch with reality. Nature grows and evolves and adapts to whatever we do. It is a living force not a dry academic theory.

Nature is our life force. And has accepted and assimilated cats long ago. If she did not do that nature would die. She knows that. The cat belongs centuries ago.
Nature is a sheer miracle of survival and evolution.

Be more concerned about the species we have destroyed and lost; and how nature has adapted and changed to accommodate change as all living forces have to do. eg wolves are gone which were predators. . Nature is a life force and not a rigid tyrant

Please excuse me now; cats to feed etc. And they are a vital part of ecology here. There is no other local predator against the rats. nature knows that. They are welcomed and vital. For all they contribute.

And my six are all rescued strays. dumped by folk, and of course neutered and well fed. They do a wonderful job and are worth their weight in gold. All living creatures to be valued and cared for in their needs.

It has been an interesting discussion ; thank you. Blessings and peace this night.

OpenYourEyes

Graces7 wrote: »

They have been here thousands of years so are valid and a part of our ecology now.

How do you feel about mink?

That's your opinion, which you're entitled to, but it goes against everything we know from ecology, zoology and conservation. All of those disciplines agree that they cats are not a valid part of our ecology. Their presence here is artificial in every sense.

Similarly, Mink are an invasive species that should not be here and do a huge amount of farm - more harm than cats, because they cause huge amounts of damage to rare breeding species in many parts of the country.

Graces7

[QUOTE=OpenYourEyes;115553519

CATS ARE NOT PART OF THE NATURAL ORDER OF THINGS IN IRELAND. THATS THE POINT! You're the one arguing for keeping the cute fluffy things - you want to allow free reign for something that shouldn't be here, because it's cute and cuddly!"

They have been here thousands of years so are valid and a part of our ecology now.

How do you feel about mink?

Graces7

1874 wrote: »

I think you're incorrect, found a good article recently that showed cats dont actually catch rats,

I think feral cats should be trapped, neutered and allowed to not breed, they are a nuisance.

Cats catch and kill rats. OK? OK? I have witnessed this. So that was not a good article.

Maybe support financially the many groups who are doing the TNR work? They need all the help they can get.

Ferals catch and kill rats too.

The Black Death spread because the eejits killed all the cats who were controlling the rats that were spreading the plague.

Eddie B

Storm 10 wrote: »

I will just drop this here

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/waterford-farmer-loses-almost-half-his-flock-in-vicious-dog-attack/ar-BB1bY1fP

Perfect! Now should the owners of these dogs defend their actions by saying, they have a right to roam and kill whatever they want? They are free souls, and its just in their nature.

P.s They also have a right to p**s and s*it on your doorstep lol

Stihl waters

Storm 10 wrote: »

I will just drop this here

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/waterford-farmer-loses-almost-half-his-flock-in-vicious-dog-attack/ar-BB1bY1fP

What has that got to do with anything

Scotty #

Storm 10 wrote: »

And did you ever see them being applied, dogs together where sheep are involved are a killers even your quite home dog gets involved.

Yes, it's applied all the time.

Not all dogs will kill sheep just the same as not all cats will kill birds.

Storm 10

Scotty # wrote: »

There are already laws in place to cover this.

And did you ever see them being applied, dogs together where sheep are involved are a killers even your quite home dog gets involved.

Scotty #

Storm 10 wrote: »

I will just drop this here

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/waterford-farmer-loses-almost-half-his-flock-in-vicious-dog-attack/ar-BB1bY1fP

There are already laws in place to cover this.

badaj0z

Let us ban dog ownership as well or just allow dogs that do not defecate.

Storm 10

I will just drop this here

https://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/waterford-farmer-loses-almost-half-his-flock-in-vicious-dog-attack/ar-BB1bY1fP

magicbastarder

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Urban habitats are under-represented in that report

cf:
"A high proportion of 1kmsquares surveyed in CBS are entirely or at least partly within farmland habitats"

OpenYourEyes

mattcullen wrote: »

Seems a lot of our garden birds are actually doing quite well.

Urban habitats are under-represented in that report, so it would be interesting to examine population trends in urban environments and specific towns/cities to see if the trend differs. Something that should be possible from the Irish Garden Bird Survey dataset in the future.

GSBellew

Water John wrote: »

A person can own a dog, nobody can claim to own a cat.

Domestic cats have maimed how many children?

Domestic dogs have maimed how many children?

Answer away there as you are inferring owning to controlling.

[Deleted User]

Feisar wrote: »

Neighbours cats shít in my garden so yea they should be banned. It’s cruel that I will have to trap them and drown them now. Can’t risk the young lad going blind because of them.

Hopefully he grows up with better sight than his Daddy.

Feisar

Antares35 wrote: »

We live rural. Any small animals caught by my cats (and I'd be hesitant to applaud their abilities to be honest) is a drop in the ocean here.

Ban the prícks coming around trampling on private property shooting deer for fun.

I never shoot deer where I don’t have permission. You should report poachers to the Gardaí.

Antares35

We live rural. Any small animals caught by my cats (and I'd be hesitant to applaud their abilities to be honest) is a drop in the ocean here.

Ban the prícks coming around trampling on private property shooting deer for fun.

Grolschevik

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Disregarding the OPs post, but speaking on this more generally, just because cat predation might not be limiting species at population level doesn't mean it's not something we should be trying to address or improve on. Obviously we'll never ban cats, and we'll likely never even bring in a licensing system like we have for dogs, but it's worth highlighting to cat owners the problems associated with free-roaming cats and encouraging behaviours to reduce those problems.

That's possibly a point we could all agree on. Even/given if cat predation is negligible and not problematic on a population level, that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a good thing. But we're into ethics there.

OpenYourEyes

storker wrote: »

Note the lack of emphasis on cat predation.

Disregarding the OPs post, but speaking on this more generally, just because cat predation might not be limiting species at population level doesn't mean it's not something we should be trying to address or improve on. Obviously we'll never ban cats, and we'll likely never even bring in a licensing system like we have for dogs, but it's worth highlighting to cat owners the problems associated with free-roaming cats and encouraging behaviours to reduce those problems.

mattcullen

storker wrote: »

The OP certainly paints an apocalyptic picture, but one wonders why the emphasis was on a comparison of deaths by cat vs deaths by shooting instead of population numbers as a whole.

I was interested to find this: https://www.npws.ie/sites/default/files/publications/pdf/IWM115.pdf (COUNTRYSIDE BIRD SURVEY: STATUS AND TRENDS OF COMMON AND WIDESPREAD BREEDING BIRDS 1998-2016)

Some quotes:

"CBS [Countryside Bird Survey] charts the history of changes in common terrestrial bird communities in Ireland captured through annual monitoring of over 300 1 km squares documenting trends for 51 species that are associated with a variety of habitats including woodland, scrubland, farmland, heathland and bogs as well as around human sites in urban, suburban and rural areas."

"Over the 18-year period since CBS began, population trend analyses indicate that 47% of species are increasing, 27% of species are stable and approximately 26% of our common and widespread birds are in decline. The most pronounced of these declines are those of Grey Wagtail, Stock Dove, Swift, Greenfinch and Kestrel."

On the reasons for worst declines in population:

Grey Wagtail: "...the dramatic decline in Grey Wagtail numbers likely due to cold-weather impacts from the successive winters of 2009/10 and 2010/1"

Stock Dove: "The pattern and scale of decline is thought to be due to the loss of mixed farming in the west and midlands"

Greenfinch: "Trichomonas gallinae parasite linked to the severe decline in Greenfinch numbers." N.B. The report also mentions that "There is also an increased risk predation for Greenfinches feeding in gardens, with cat-related mortality one of the leading causes of death reported by observers (Pavisse et al., 2019)" This is the only reference to cats in the 145-page report.

Kestrel: "Causes for the decline of Kestrel in Ireland in recent years are likely centred around prey availability, agricultural changes and reduced feeding opportunities"

Swift: "...loss of traditional nesting habitats."

Regarding the species mentioned in the OP, the reports figures show:

Blue Tit: +13% population change 1998-2016
House Sparrow: +82% population change 1998-2016
Blackbird: +18.3% population change 1998-2016
Starlings: -7.1% population change 1998-2016

Not quite the holocaust hinted at in the OP.

Regarding pressures and threats, the report listed the following:
Climate change in and outside Ireland

Agriculture and Forestry including use of pesticides and loss of hedgerows

Urbanisation and development

Plant and animal pathogens and pests (this does not include predation by other animals)

Hunting, shooting and accidental killing

Illegal shooting, killing and poisoning

Loss of habitat

Severe weather

"The report concludes with an assessment of the current pressures and threats facing Ireland’s common and widespread breeding birds. Relevant to the current Article 12 reporting period of 2013 – 2018, only one high level pressure and threat was identified and relates to the Trichomonas gallinae parasite linked to the severe decline in Greenfinch numbers since it was first recorded in Ireland over 10 years ago. Additional pressures and threats determined to be at the moderate scale, were identified in relation to: agriculture and forestry, which include inter alia changes to grazing and grassland management and the use of pesticides; development (e.g. loss of traditional nesting habitats of Swift), and climate change."

Note the lack of emphasis on cat predation.

Cheers for posting that information. Must check out that report. Interested not so much with regards to the subject matter of the thread but on the population status of the species. I didn't realise sparrow populations had increased so much. I was under the impression they had declined. Maybe that's just the UK.

Seems a lot of our garden birds are actually doing quite well.