Should ownership of cats be banned?

badaj0z

The Biggest Bird Killers
I found the figures below with simple Google searches. They are both from the UK and from publications that support the lead ban in shooting. Look closely. You will soon note that the figures show that cats kill 270 times as many birds than are killed by lead shot. It is time to look at banning cats.

https://www.birdguides.com/news/uk-s...public%20alike.


The decision comes despite the well-known negative impacts of lead poisoning in both humans and wildlife. More than 6,000 tonnes of lead ammunition are fired over the UK countryside every year in areas where birds feed, and are left behind strewn on the ground. Birds often mistake tiny shot pellets for grit or seeds, and ingest them. Up to 100,000 waterbirds in the UK die every year through ingesting poisonous lead shot. Dead and dying birds are usually taken quickly by predators – making their deaths unseen and 'invisible' to shooters and the wider public alike.

https://www.rspb.org.uk/birds-and-wi...0been%20caught.

The most recent figures of how many creatures are killed by cats are from the Mammal Society. They estimate that cats in the UK catch up to 100 million prey items over spring and summer, of which 27 million are birds.
This is the number of prey items which were known to have been caught. We don't know how many more the cats caught, but didn't bring home, or how many escaped but subsequently died.
The most frequently caught birds, according to the Mammal Society, are probably:
• house sparrows
• blue tits
• blackbirds
• starlings
badaj0z is offline Report Post

gzoladz

I would take it up a level...there is A LOT of damage caused to wildlife by irresponsible pet owners (not only cats), in the form of attacks and disturbance.

Cats killing birds is a problem, but so is disturbance caused by dogs off leash to protected species in their roosting and breeding sites. The fact that dogs kill birds less often than cats, does not mean the damage they cause is less serious or it has a lower impact.

I would not favour banning the ownership of neither cats or dogs though, as there are loads of benefits associated with it, i.e. lonely owners, etc. But would definitely be in favour of real (as opposed to pretended) policing, including fines, etc.

magicbastarder

we have two cats. they've never killed anything bar some spiders.

Manach

No.
This notion seems to be a political overreach not seen since say Mao's experiements with social engineering. Cats have been a staple companiion for centuries and as I gazed outside my window this morning, the country still bejeweled with bird song and flight. There are limits to what the law can accomplish without significant pushback and this is one of them.

The cat and the bird, one of nature's great rivalries.

whisky_galore

Lol. They can't even control dogs with seemingly optional licences, chipping and a handful of wardens, good luck with cats.

Stihl waters

And what would you have me do with the rat problem before I got cats, I live near a river which is a crawling with rats, I got my 2 cats 3 years ago and since then the rat problem has gotten much better, no more rats living in my shed, I also have bird feeders and the birds seem to feed away without too much interference from the cats

magicbastarder

this is worth a listen on the topic, if you've three quarters of an hour to spare. collie ennis and collette kinsella talking about this very topic.
(TL;DL - cats are great, but keep them indoors)

https://play.acast.com/s/the-critter-shed/weneedtotalkaboutted..-

Rubberchikken

When they ban imbicles shooting animals, either in 'season', or not, then I'll discuss cats and birds.

We've have 3 cats and have had at least 7 previously and the number of birds they've killed has been minimal.

unkel

Number of birds killed per year globally by wind turbines: 40,000
Number of birds killed per year globally by domestic cats: 4,000,000,000

No typo. Four billion. For every single bird killed by a wind turbine, cats kill one hundred thousand of them

I haven't heard about birds being driven into extinction because of cats though. I guess cats kill the most vulnerable birds. Survival of the fittest. So no, I do not feel we should ban domestic cats.

eviltwin

Do you think cats should become extinct or something?

I have two cats. They are mainly house cats but have access to a catio outside so they never get a chance to kill wildlife. Why should responsible pet owners be made to give up their cats and why should a healthy animal be, presumably euthanised?

It also doesn’t address the issue of feral cats. What happens to them?

El Tarangu

I don't think that cats should be banned, but I do think that, within 20 or 30 years, the notion that people allowed their cats to roam outside laying waste to local wildlife will seem as irresponsible as people leaving their dogs out to worry sheep (and god knows what else) back in the day.

Stihl waters

unkel wrote: »

Number of birds killed per year globally by wind turbines: 40,000
Number of birds killed per year globally by domestic cats: 4,000,000,000,000

No typo. Four billion. For every single bird killed by a wind turbine, cats kill one hundred thousand of them

I haven't heard about birds being driven into extinction because of cats though. I guess cats kill the most vulnerable birds. Survival of the fittest. So no, I do not feel we should ban domestic cats.

I'll think you'll find that is a typo

unkel

Stihl waters wrote: »

I'll think you'll find that is a typo

Nope. From nature.com:

We estimate that free-ranging domestic cats kill 1.3–4.0 billion birds and 6.3–22.3 billion mammals annually

Linky

iwillhtfu

Stihl waters wrote: »

I'll think you'll find that is a typo

Stihl waters

unkel wrote: »

Nope. From nature.com:



Linky

I meant there's only 9 zeros in a billion :pac:

unkel

Ha! My finger must have got stuck on the keyboard a bit

Edited now...

magicbastarder

eviltwin wrote: »

It also doesn’t address the issue of feral cats. What happens to them?

TNR.

Meeoow

What about the amount of humans who kill birds and eat them? How many turkeys, chickens and geese are consumed, or thrown in the bin by greedy humans. At least the birds killed by cats aren't intensively farmed, then slaughtered.

gozunda

Meeoow wrote: »

What about the amount of humans who kill birds and eat them? How many turkeys, chickens and geese are consumed, or thrown in the bin by greedy humans. At least the birds killed by cats aren't intensively farmed, then slaughtered.

Username fits ...

Now kitty how many times have I told you - not to use the laptop!

SmartinMartin

Meeoow wrote: »

What about the amount of humans who kill birds and eat them? How many turkeys, chickens and geese are consumed, or thrown in the bin by greedy humans. At least the birds killed by cats aren't intensively farmed, then slaughtered.

Chicken. Slurp.

Trouser Snake

El Tarangu wrote: »

I don't think that cats should be banned, but I do think that, within 20 or 30 years, the notion that people allowed their cats to roam outside laying waste to local wildlife will seem as irresponsible as people leaving their dogs out to worry sheep (and god knows what else) back in the day.

Not to mention harassing or killing other neighbours' pets, yet they're still allowed roam unrestricted.

Water John

A person can own a dog, nobody can claim to own a cat.

eviltwin

magicbastarder wrote: »

TNR.

Impossible to get them all

o1s1n

Water John wrote: »

A person can own a dog, nobody can claim to own a cat.

I own two trained indoor cats who are as interactive and obedient as a dog might be.

Neither has killed a bird in their life.

1874

magicbastarder wrote: »

we have two cats. they've never killed anything bar some spiders.

How would you know? be next to impossible to tell what they were up to as they must be out at some point. We used to get loads of small birds, finches, tits, robins at the feeders every year, until the feral cats got out of hand, one neighbour is encouraging them by disposing of their food, now others have started, dont even see sparrows here anymore, the cat population has exploded, I would be very much in favour of reducing them by any means.

Stihl waters wrote: »

And what would you have me do with the rat problem before I got cats, I live near a river which is a crawling with rats, I got my 2 cats 3 years ago and since then the rat problem has gotten much better, no more rats living in my shed, I also have bird feeders and the birds seem to feed away without too much interference from the cats

I think you're incorrect, found a good article recently that showed cats dont actually catch rats, might have the pdf of it somewhere, they either make them more elusive so they aren't seen or if the rat has a specific parasite, they actually embolden the rats who get killed and the cats pass it on. I dont believe that cats kill many rats, they probably kill mice, but if they are well fed, I dont think they will hunt or kill them.
Maybe get some good jack russels? I'd have thought they'd be better at it?

(edit) I should say, along with the neighbour putting out food (meat and fat), the onlt other thing noticed a significant increase alongside the feral cats was rat droppings in the foul water drain and under where the neighbour leaves the food, IMO rats exist alongside cats and cats wont go near them, the only thing that reduced the sign of the rat droppings (piles of the stuff) was getting the HSE out to lay traps and bait the drain, the idiot in question still leaves food out on the wall.

eviltwin wrote: »

Do you think cats should become extinct or something?

I have two cats. They are mainly house cats but have access to a catio outside so they never get a chance to kill wildlife. Why should responsible pet owners be made to give up their cats and why should a healthy animal be, presumably euthanised?

It also doesn’t address the issue of feral cats. What happens to them?

I think feral cats should be trapped, neutered and allowed to not breed, they are a nuisance.

nedkelly123

5G has killed more people then cats

SmartinMartin

In fairness they're a horrible animal, the wasp of the animal world.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

we have two cats. they've never killed anything bar some spiders.

How do you know? Are they inside or outside cats?
clearly most of the posters believe they should be allowed to let their cats roam free.

1874

SmartinMartin wrote: »

In fairness they're a horrible animal, the wasp of the animal world.

Wasps are maligned and necessary creatures, cats aren't native, but I think if they are domesticated, well fed and neutered, they are less likely to kill much/many/too many.
I know they will kill though, as we had a cat for years, she did bring back the occasional mouse so we knew she dealt with that, and she did kill starlings occasionally, they are nice, but they are killers.
She was well fed and she still hunted that we could tell, but we always had small birds at the feeders right at the house.



Ferals are another story IMO, they need to feed, they get fed by people occasionally, I think they will decimate other animals, especially birds, I just dont believe they deal with rats whatsoever.

bubblypop wrote: »

How do you know? Are they inside or outside cats?
clearly most of the posters believe they should be allowed to let their cats roam free.

Imo, cats need to roam, but domestic cats should be neutered, they breed like rabbits, so if there is a feral cat somewhere, they will breed with that if they can and that problem will just take off once it gets started.


I think neutering might reduce their tendencys (for males), limits injuries from fighting, and the noise, between fighting and mating.


I do miss seeing the greenfinches, goldfinches, all kids of blue tits, robins, even the sparrows, now we have exactly zero, took the feeder down this year, having not seen them for years, all mainly down to one neighbour who disposes of waste meat and food and encourages them.

gozunda

1874 wrote: »

How would you know? ...

I would concur with the other poster. I have a large mean farm cat who regularly catches rats. Big feckers as well. Seen him hunting and killing them. So no -no doubts at all.

Birdnuts

unkel wrote: »

Number of birds killed per year globally by wind turbines: 40,000
Number of birds killed per year globally by domestic cats: 4,000,000,000

No typo. Four billion. For every single bird killed by a wind turbine, cats kill one hundred thousand of them

I haven't heard about birds being driven into extinction because of cats though. I guess cats kill the most vulnerable birds. Survival of the fittest. So no, I do not feel we should ban domestic cats.

Cats tend to kill common or garden birds - wind turbines kill rare soaring birds like eagles, cranes, pelicans etc. They also displace rarer birds from habitats like peatlands etc. So your comparing apples with oranges

Stihl waters

1874 wrote: »

I think you're incorrect, found a good article recently that showed cats dont actually catch rats, might have the pdf of it somewhere, they either make them more elusive so they aren't seen or if the rat has a specific parasite, they actually embolden the rats who get killed and the cats pass it on. I dont believe that cats kill many rats, they probably kill mice, but if they are well fed, I dont think they will hunt or kill them.
Maybe get some good jack russels? I'd have thought they'd be better at it?.

So you're telling me the 30 plus rats that have ended up outside my door in the last 3 years have been dreamt up by me all along, just 2 weeks ago 2 were lying side by side on my front step like trophy kills, also no more rats sitting on my washing machine or freezer when I go into the shed, I have a jack Russell dog who would try and play with a rat rather than kill it, I've tried everything from poisoning, high frequency transmitters, live bait cages and the rats kept coming back until I got my cats

1874

gozunda wrote: »

I would concur with the other poster. I have a large mean farm cat who regularly catches rats. Big feckers as well. Seen him hunting and killing them. So no -no doubts at all.

Im sure there are outliers, but one example from a farm may be a rare example, and a farm or rural area might be a more likely location for this to occur, to have one dominant Male cat thats able and will do that, do you feed him much? not being critical, just think if you feed the right cat the right amount (ie not too much), he could do that, ie he is still looked after/can get big/stay healthy etc.
but I wouldnt think its as common as people believe. In a suburban location, I'm inclined to think they dont, either domestic cats fed well enough to not need to tackle a rat, OR feral cats that are either smaller or can access other food sources, path of least resistance, rats are a bit dangerous for them and big enough to tackle, so they take on easier prey.


I'm not disputing you that yours will, if you've seen it.
I saw myself, loads of rat droppings (an actual increase from very little to very significant amounts found every day) right under and very near to where the cats were being fed and stayed during the day.



I dug up an article and I may have saved it somewhere and it basically said something like statistically cats dont kill rats, thats not to say it doesnt occur, I think it depends on different factors.

My cat is out 24/7. I don't have a vermin problem.

New research finds that contrary to popular opinion, cats are not good predators of rats. The study -- the first to document interactions between feral cats and a wild rat colony -- shows that rats actively avoid cats, and only recorded two rat kills in 79 days. The findings add to growing evidence that any benefit of using cats to control city rats is outweighed by the threat they pose to birds and other urban wildlife.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180927083342.htm

Graces7

Stihl waters wrote: »

And what would you have me do with the rat problem before I got cats, I live near a river which is a crawling with rats, I got my 2 cats 3 years ago and since then the rat problem has gotten much better, no more rats living in my shed, I also have bird feeders and the birds seem to feed away without too much interference from the cats

Out here there was a plague of rats when I arrived. One huge one! Dead! My six cats work for their keep.

I do not feed the birds. And rarely see any near the place. Birds are not stupid. And they can fly. There is abundant shore and wild land here and they have abundant wild food.

Oh and please remember that larger birds eg magpies, prey on smaller birds. Stop demonising cats.

And I disagree that no one owns a cat. mine are mine. As devoted and companionable as any dog . All of mine are rescues from appalling conditions so maybe that changes their love and need.

magicbastarder

1874 wrote: »

How would you know? be next to impossible to tell what they were up to as they must be out at some point.

Why do you say that? They're never been outside. Not since they were trapped as part of a feral litter.

PsychoPete

My cat spends most of her day sitting under the bird feeders watching them, 99% of the time the birds are too clever for her except the odd time she manages to catch one but it's mostly mice she kills. Since I got her I haven't seen a rat near the place which is good

Vittu

Put bells around their necks, gives the birds a chance

Stihl waters

Deleted User wrote: »

New research finds that contrary to popular opinion, cats are not good predators of rats. The study -- the first to document interactions between feral cats and a wild rat colony -- shows that rats actively avoid cats, and only recorded two rat kills in 79 days. The findings add to growing evidence that any benefit of using cats to control city rats is outweighed by the threat they pose to birds and other urban wildlife.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180927083342.htm

So even if a cat doesn't kill rats it's still effective at keeping them away from your house and surrounding area, that's justification enough for me

Dempo1

Absolutely not, I live quite Rural, love the Birds around my garden, particularly Robins, I havevtwo challenges.

A. Protecting the Birds
B. Managing occasional mice and less occasional Rats.

My solution was quite simple. I've a clip on bell, I put on my two cats in the morning. Which I remove in the evening. Generally cats will hunt birds during the day, when they are more active and mice, rodents, evenings, night when they are more active.

As an aside, Cats much more likely to hunt or chase birds when they are younger. As they age, laziness sets in and as is typical of pet cats, they couldn't be bothered with anything but food and warmth. However curiosity never leaves them, hence there inclination to search out rodents at night (as long as its not to taxing or strenuous)

magicbastarder

Graces7 wrote: »

Oh and please remember that larger birds eg magpies, prey on smaller birds.

this again. magpies are wild, native animals. cats are not. you can't compare the two in this context.

gozunda

1874 wrote: »

Im sure there are outliers, but one example from a farm may be a rare example, and a farm or rural area might be a more likely location for this to occur, to have one dominant Male cat thats able and will do that, do you feed him much? not being critical, just think if you feed the right cat the right amount (ie not too much), he could do that, ie he is still looked after/can get big/stay healthy etc.
but I wouldnt think its as common as people believe. In a suburban location, I'm inclined to think they dont, either domestic cats fed well enough to not need to tackle a rat, OR feral cats that are either smaller or can access other food sources, path of least resistance, rats are a bit dangerous for them and big enough to tackle, so they take on easier prey.


I'm not disputing you that yours will, if you've seen it.
I saw myself, loads of rat droppings (an actual increase from very little to very significant amounts found every day) right under and very near to where the cats were being fed and stayed during the day.



I dug up an article and I may have saved it somewhere and it basically said something like statistically cats dont kill rats, thats not to say it doesnt occur, I think it depends on different factors.

No not one outlier by any means. He's just one of many who've done the same.

Scotty #

1874 wrote: »

Im sure there are outliers, but one example from a farm may be a rare example, and a farm or rural area might be a more likely location for this to occur, to have one dominant Male cat thats able and will do that, do you feed him much? not being critical, just think if you feed the right cat the right amount (ie not too much), he could do that, ie he is still looked after/can get big/stay healthy etc.
but I wouldnt think its as common as people believe. In a suburban location, I'm inclined to think they dont, either domestic cats fed well enough to not need to tackle a rat, OR feral cats that are either smaller or can access other food sources, path of least resistance, rats are a bit dangerous for them and big enough to tackle, so they take on easier prey.

I'd completely disagree. I have two family members living in the countryside who keep cats (I'm not a fan myself) who would both regularly witness their cats hunt and kill rats.

How well fed they are is irrelevant. Cats hunt whether they are full or not. I have two dogs - one will go hysterical when it sees a cat and do everything it can to get after it. The other wouldn't bat an eyelid at the sight of a cat. I'd imagine cats are much the same, some have a very strong instinct to hunt and some don't.

magicbastarder

so, in summary, cats which hunt rats are the ones we want.
but on the flipside, cats which hunt are also the ones we *don't* want.

unless of course, there are cats which *only* hunt rats.

Meeoow

My cats are well fed. One of them loves killing anything from flies to rats. I live in town, and have seen him kill small rats.

Meeoow

gozunda wrote: »

Username fits ...

Now kitty how many times have I told you - not to use the laptop!

Ha ha, my paws are too big for the keys, my human types for me, meeoow!

Ubbquittious

They'll make a song and a dance about everything now.

If what you're doing isn't backed by a multi billion euro industry it is liable to being banned. No great money in cats except the crowd selling cat food.

Domestic cats haven't been seen as a problem for the 5,000+ years they been around. But everything is under the looking glass now with "policy makers" and other power tripping sh1ts. If you have some hobby that you enjoy doing you can bet there is someone in the EU attributing harm to it and looking for a way to marginalise it

magicbastarder

i am not backed by a multi billion euro industry, and i don't allow our cats out. it's not a power trip for me not to allow them out.

it *is* possible for people to have concerns which are quite simply a reasonable, sincere set of concerns without appealing to some nonsense conspiracy theory about it being about economics or power. or the EU (!?)

Storm 10

I would love to know how many birds are killed by Kestrels, Hawks etc I would guess way more than cats, we have a Cat who is kept indoors and in Summer we bring him out to the garden, I have three bird feeders and he never even bothers to look at them they have even got used to him.