Should ownership of cats be banned?

kildare lad

beauf wrote: »

Out of curiosity I looked up the numbers.

I'm open to correction but. They reckon there are 325k cats in Ireland. Maybe 200k are feral apparently. There are a number of organisations trying to control their population.

The focus on this thread is solely on domestic cats (ownership being banned) and not feral cats at all.

Most people don't have a problem with cats even people who don't like them like me . It's the owners that are the problem . If you've a cat, desexed and chipped and keep it indoors or have your property in such a way that the cat stays in there I've no problem with it .

But it's the people that have cats , head off to work and let the cats out all day. Pissing and ****ting in neighbours gardens , stalking bird feeders , scratching cars etc is the problem . While feral cats do no favours to wildlife here , they're causing extinctions in australia , New Zealand and other delicate island eco systems . In australia they've to build feral cat proof sanctuaries because of the predation on the small mammals due to feral cats. The funny thing is whenever wildlife groups try and do something to get rid of the ferals , to protect native wildlife , the crazy cat lobby oppose it . Theyd rather an native animals go extinct that something happen to a cat. Heres a good youtube video about the damage feral cats do when left unchecked and the people trying to save mammals from extinction in australia

https://youtu.be/5Op-eTY1Fbw

beauf

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Very rare to see feral cats nowadays, they were very plentiful when I was a child, as were household cats, as none were neutered.
How much of the decline in small bird population is attributed to the decline in the insect numbers, when I
started driving, the car windscreen would be covered in dead insects during the summer, same mowing meadows for silage or hay, insects crawling all over the machinery, you see neither nowadays. The cats here might catch a bird outside, once a year, but catch mice all the time, particularly in the autumn, they could get 4 or 5 a day, and probably more at night.

I did notice the insects. But I mostly drive in the city. They used to be hard to clean off the car.

I was curious about the feral population. Seems to be the bigger issue. I was surprised.

AutoTuning

I’d be much more concerned about the loss of insects and habitat. There’s been a severe decline in insect populations.

Domestic cats have been around for tens of thousand of years, without vast impact and cats were neither neutered nor particularly coddled in the past, so probably hunted a lot more than your average suburban cat in 2020, so something else is going on.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/02/why-insect-populations-are-plummeting-and-why-it-matters/

It would seem to me that we need to solve the insect issue very urgently or it will be entire ecosystems collapsing, including the ones that produce our food.

The decline figures are very dramatic and people are noticing it anecdotally too. You definitely don’t see as many flies and insects on windscreens or around in general as you once did. So what’s changed? Widespread use of new insecticides? Change to farming?

touts

There is a neighbours cat who keeps ****ting in my veg garden. I've seen it do it and chased it off. I've said it to the neighbour who doesn't give a damn. Have tried netting, scent, ultrasonic etc. Bastard cat ignores it all. Every time I dig in the garden it's full of cat **** so I am very worried about the parasites in the vegetables. Very close to setting a few rat traps around my veg patch and letting it go back to the neighbour with a leg missing. I know that sounds awful but it's at the point where I see the neighbour not caring about the parasites my children could be picking up from his cat. Children vs cat. Well sorry but the cat loses that debate every time.

AutoTuning

I’d suggest discussing whether the cat’s wormed with your neighbour before resorting to violence and animal cruelty.

We get foxes, cats, hedgehogs etc and they all poo in the garden. That’s just the reality of outdoors.

beauf

kildare lad wrote: »

Most people don't have a problem with cats even people who don't like them like me . It's the owners that are the problem . If you've a cat, desexed and chipped and keep it indoors or have your property in such a way that the cat stays in there I've no problem with it .

But it's the people that have cats , head off to work and let the cats out all day. Pissing and ****ting in neighbours gardens , stalking bird feeders , scratching cars etc is the problem . While feral cats do no favours to wildlife here , they're causing extinctions in australia , New Zealand and other delicate island eco systems . In australia they've to build feral cat proof sanctuaries because of the predation on the small mammals due to feral cats. The funny thing is whenever wildlife groups try and do something to get rid of the ferals , to protect native wildlife , the crazy cat lobby oppose it . Theyd rather an native animals go extinct that something happen to a cat. Heres a good youtube video about the damage feral cats do when left unchecked and the people trying to save mammals from extinction in australia

Kinda of agreeing there, that its still feral cats causing the issue with wildlife.

Can't really complain about domestic cats damaging cars and gardens if you're encouraging birds to do the same by baiting birds into the garden with bird feeders, which then baits the cats with birds. Kinda instigating a chain of events, thats causing the very issue you're complaining about.

beauf

AutoTuning wrote: »

I’d be much more concerned about the loss of insects and habitat. There’s been a severe decline in insect populations.

Domestic cats have been around for tens of thousand of years, without vast impact and cats were neither neutered nor particularly coddled in the past, so probably hunted a lot more than your average suburban cat in 2020, so something else is going on.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/02/why-insect-populations-are-plummeting-and-why-it-matters/

It would seem to me that we need to solve the insect issue very urgently or it will be entire ecosystems collapsing, including the ones that produce our food.

The decline figures are very dramatic and people are noticing it anecdotally too. You definitely don’t see as many flies and insects on windscreens or around in general as you once did. So what’s changed? Widespread use of new insecticides? Change to farming?

Lack of diversity in the rural ecology. Farming gets more efficient as it gets less profitable. There's also issues around forestry and such.

touts

AutoTuning wrote: »

I’d suggest discussing whether the cat’s wormed with your neighbour before resorting to violence and animal cruelty.

Done that. He says he can't control the cat. I haven't decided what I will do but I'm at the end of my tether. I've given him fair warning. I don't see it as violence or animal cruelty. It is defending my children. I may have no choice come the spring when I set the next batch of vegetables that my family will eat. I'll tell him about the traps and it is up to him to keep his cat safe by keeping it under control and away from my property.

beauf

I expect growing vegetables is more a hobby than a survival issue feeding kids.

But regardless, no one wants cats (or birds) constantly dumping over your garden, and belongings.

I've heard said fresh citrus, and water scarecrows might work. Most of the other remedies I've never seen work.

AutoTuning

I think to be quite honest we are getting a bit ridiculous on the cat thing. The problem is humans. Cats are just companion animals that are found as part of human settlements for millennia.

We have completely altered the landscape. Ireland basically has no wildernesses at all. It’s one big network of farms. It’s fairly clear that we are also having a profound impact on insect populations, destroy habitats, create huge amounts of noise and pollution.

Even our gardening activities are often aimed at making something look visually pleasing by cleaning it up, cutting grasses and hedges and leaving nothing wild.

I’ve deliberately left areas of leaf heavy leaf litter every winter and part of my garden is now more like natural woodland and has brought loads of insects, butterflies and birds. We’re also seeing red squirrels and hedgehogs.

The local cats don’t seem to be doing much more than lazing around the place and the birds, in trees, are well able to avoid them.

I would strongly caution against bird tables. You’re encouraging birds into low down exposed areas that that don’t usually hang about in. If you are feeding birds do it with well positioned tree hung feeders. There are cats, foxes and even the odd pine marten that will see that bird table as a snacking ground. You’re just baiting a natural trap.

The biggest issue I have in the garden with dumping on things are wood pigeons. They seem to take aim at cars or sit on the roof edge pooing over the side causing huge amounts of poop.

kildare lad

beauf wrote: »

I expect growing vegetables is more a hobby than a survival issue feeding kids.

But regardless, no one wants cats (or birds) constantly dumping over your garden, and belongings.

I've heard said fresh citrus, and water scarecrows might work. Most of the other remedies I've never seen work.

So what if it's a hobby , I'm sure if he wanted a cat shxtting and pissing in his garden he'd buy one . It just goes to show you the mentality of pet owners. It's shows a lack of respect if you to your neighbours if you refuse to keep your pets on your property .My aunt had the same attitude letting her cat wonder off all day . It used to piss off 2 of her neighbours . Guess what, the cat disappeared . My uncle said she was devastated but said it was her own fault .

kildare lad

touts wrote: »

Done that. He says he can't control the cat. I haven't decided what I will do but I'm at the end of my tether. I've given him fair warning. I don't see it as violence or animal cruelty. It is defending my children. I may have no choice come the spring when I set the next batch of vegetables that my family will eat. I'll tell him about the traps and it is up to him to keep his cat safe by keeping it under control and away from my property.

I heard if you put down strong chilli powder on the route the cat takes . It's meant to irritate them when it gets into their paws and they rub it on themselves. Google it, there's plenty of info on it. I wouldn't bother saying anything else to him , if you're gonna do something about the cat. Cats go missing all the time ,more so if people let roam around all day

beauf

kildare lad wrote: »

So what if it's a hobby , I'm sure if he wanted a cat shxtting and pissing in his garden he'd buy one .

Ironically getting a cat is one of the best ways of keeping other cats out.

kildare lad wrote: »

It just goes to show you the mentality of pet owners. It's shows a lack of respect if you to your neighbours if you refuse to keep your pets on your property ..

The only way to keep cats in once place is to lock them up.



Encouraging birds especially large birds with bird feeders is doing the same thing.

I know one person a neighbor who has both cats and bird feeders and a nature lover. Refused to listen to all reason. All the neighbours cut down their trees, solved the bird dropping problem for them. The nature lover was horrified, but can't see they caused it. They fell out with lots of people over the cats and birds. But think its everyone else at fault.

beauf

kildare lad wrote: »

...Cats go missing all the time ,more so if people let roam around all day

Same with birds...

kildare lad

beauf wrote: »

Kinda of agreeing there, that its still feral cats causing the issue with wildlife.

Can't really complain about domestic cats damaging cars and gardens if you're encouraging birds to do the same by baiting birds into the garden with bird feeders, which then baits the cats with birds. Kinda instigating a chain of events, thats causing the very issue you're complaining about.

It's not just feral cats doing that to wildlife , domestic cats do it too. Do you not understand that if it's YOUR cat in should be on your property ??? Even if you don't have feeders they still come in . So if I enjoy feeding birds in my garden I shouldn't complain if a neighbours cats kills a few of them . I'm sorry but that kind of attitude stinks . What ever happened to having a bit of responsibility and respect for people.

beauf

kildare lad wrote: »

It's not just feral cats doing that to wildlife , domestic cats do it too. Do you not understand that if it's YOUR cat in should be on your property ??? Even if you don't have feeders they still come in . So if I enjoy feeding birds in my garden I shouldn't complain if a neighbours cats kills a few of them . I'm sorry but that kind of attitude stinks . What ever happened to having a bit of responsibility and respect for people.

Its mostly feral cats. As they need it for food and birds are more common in rural area. Since thats where their food is.

"the total number of bird species declines once an area is urbanized"

Don't have a cat, but I do know you can't control them other than locking them up. Do you not know that ???

You don't seem to have a problem with cats disappearing, but do with birds. You want tolerance and respect for bird lovers, but not for cat lovers. Seems more than a little hypocritical.

magicbastarder

beauf wrote: »

You want tolerance and respect for bird lovers, but not for cat lovers.

are people not explaining this well enough, or are you just ignoring the point?
is wanting the grey squirrel to disappear so the reds can return somehow hypocritical too?

this is the nature and birdwatching forum. many posters here love native wildlife, and i would hazard a guess would place the life of someone else's pet cat on around the same level as a treecreeper that cat has just killed, say. so why wouldn't they call for the control of cats?
as has been said, if it was your neighbour's dog coming into your garden, killing animals, you'd have an absolute expectation that the owner should be able to take control of the dog and prevent this from happening. it's quite legal to shoot dogs in certain contexts if they enter your property (albeit not in an urban context)

i don't want my neighbour's cats coming into my garden killing birds (as i have seen on occasion). they're pets, and have plenty of food.
we don't allow our own cats out. they're happy as clams.

kildare lad

beauf wrote: »

Its mostly feral cats. As they need it for food and birds are more common in rural area. Since thats where their food is.

Don't have a cat, but I do know you can't control them other than locking them up. Do you not know that ???

You don't seem to have a problem with cats disappearing, but do with birds. You want tolerance and respect for bird lovers, but not for cat lovers. Seems more than a little hypocritical.

You're wrong, You can cat proof your garden if it's not too big. Your cat can play outside then without him going into people gardens or getting run over. Many Cats live their whole lives inside with no problems so I don't know where you're going about not being able to control them . Cats are pets they'll never disappear . Do you realise that you are on a nature and birdwatching page ??? You sound a bit like me going onto the rugby thread telling everyone that rugby is crap

beauf

magicbastarder wrote: »

are people not explaining this well enough, or are you just ignoring the point?
is wanting the grey squirrel to disappear so the reds can return somehow hypocritical too?

this is the nature and birdwatching forum. many posters here love native wildlife, and i would hazard a guess would place the life of a garden bird on around the same level as a treecreeper, say. so why wouldn't they call for the control of cats?
as has been said, if it was your neighbour's dog coming into your garden, killing animals, you'd have an absolute expectation that the owner should be able to take control of the dog and prevent this from happening. it's quite legal to shoot dogs in certain contexts if they enter your property (albeit not in an urban context)

i don't want my neighbour's cats coming into my garden killing birds (as i have seen on occasion). they're pets, and have plenty of food.
we don't allow our own cats out. they're happy as clams.

I could make the same argument about encouraging large birds into gardens to displace small birds. You can shoot birds in certain context. Bird feeders are as anti social as letting cats roam. Interestingly Bird feeders can also spread disease between species and between grey and red squirrels. Likewise bird feeders bringing cats and people into conflict.

I have no love for birds or cats, or dogs dumping in my garden. But each group thinks they have a moral high ground over the other. You are all doing the same thing.

beauf

kildare lad wrote: »

You're wrong, You can cat proof your garden if it's not too big.

No need for this thread then.

kildare lad wrote: »

Your cat can play outside then without him going into people gardens or getting run over. Many Cats live their whole lives inside with no problems so I don't know where you're going about not being able to control them . Cats are pets they'll never disappear . Do you realise that you are on a nature and birdwatching page ??? You sound a bit like me going onto the rugby thread telling everyone that rugby is crap

Since this is an open form, the titles appear in the "Latest Posts" view. If boards allowed people to filter out people and sub forums from this view it would be very convenient. Or forums could ask not to appear there.

I was just curious why people want cats banned. Then more curious since much of the reasons for wanting cats banned also applies to birds. Also since its things like bird feeders causing much of the problem. If you were to ban free roaming cats, it not unreasonable to ban bird feeders. since one is as antisocial as the other.

Since I don't have pets, I have no skin in the argument. The duality of the argument got me curious.

zerosugarbuzz

kildare lad wrote: »

It's not just feral cats doing that to wildlife , domestic cats do it too. Do you not understand that if it's YOUR cat in should be on your property ??? Even if you don't have feeders they still come in . So if I enjoy feeding birds in my garden I shouldn't complain if a neighbours cats kills a few of them . I'm sorry but that kind of attitude stinks . What ever happened to having a bit of responsibility and respect for people.

Are you serious or trying to wind people up? I can’t believe that a grown man wouldn’t have more to be troubling him than cats killing birds. I hope you’re at least a vegan yourself and not consuming chickens and battery produced eggs.

daniel_t1409

Overwritten by user.

beauf

Where is the middle ground on this then?

There's been an explosion of pets and bird feeders since the lock down. Foot paths and parks are a minefield.
Some have turned gardens into meadows (diversity of habit etc). Seems perfect for cats hunting though.

Would you happy to coincide banning bird feeders for banning free roaming cats. Or banning feeders for large birds.

Another argument, is there are a lot of birds. So cats killing them isn't making that much of a difference.
The issue perhaps might not the number of birds, but the reduction of diversity in the bird population. Which seems to be more due to other things than cats.

beauf

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

No. Also those figures sound like BS to me. I love having cats, always have, they're great companions. Yes, they kill birds, but it's natural instinct.

The figures are disputed. But it says a lot when a thread provides little in the way of real stats, balance, then wants to ban anyone that disagrees with them. Maybe they should make the forum invite only like the soccer forums.

There obviously is an issue with cats, mainly feral in Ireland. Some studies suggest feral cats kill twice as many birds as domestic cats. Maybe more.

So if 2/3rd of Ireland cats are feral. How does that work out. Feral cars kill 5/6 of birds killed by cats? Someone better at math's might work it out. They say tall buildings and traffic kills a lot also. Much more than wind farms etc.

An Ri rua

Stihl waters wrote: »

I meant there's only 9 zeros in a billion :pac:

Yes and 1.3 is usually represented onscreen as 1.3, not 4....

Op, ban car ownership? ? How could you do that under current law when no one legally owns a cat under Irish law? Unlike a dog which is prescribed under law and therefore for whose actions the owner is responsible. Not so with the furry lads.
And as another poster pointed out, what about ferals?
Ive spent a lot of time with my 2 Tom's since lockdown and, while they worry and stalk the birds right now, it's only in Spring/early Summer that they might wreak havoc. Now it's mice. Almost daily.
Should we also ban various birds for when they decimate mayfly and insect populations? Eg sparrows gorging on flying ants. Appalling behaviour.
Lastly, do the Scots exterminate the Scottish Wildcat? That little b*stard clearly does lots of killing and in such a pristine environment?! Dirty little thug animal.
Down with the sparrowhawks and birds of prey too. We don't need their sort hovering over our gardens.

Edit: I confess to being an animal lover, wildlife lover, flora and fauna lover and oh, a longtime vegan. Every morning I feed my cat companions and the birds. The 2 lads stalk, no doubt, but I've only seen 2 dead birds in 18 months. Likely 100 dead mice and shrews in that time.
Certainly in an urban environment, cats could be problematic. Just as with people hard surfacing their gardens for parking, as an earlier poster noted, we have scant disregard (mostly ignorance of) our fellow creatures' needs). Cats need up to 500m radius territory. That's likely the problem. Yes, you can keep them in a house, just like a bird in a cage, but that is not ideal for them.
I get the Op's frustration. I spent a day trying to rehabilitate a house Martin who fell early when the nest fell apart. And I shed tears as I held the little perfect chap, dead. But I wouldn't go hard on another species over death. The solution is distraction /deflection not conflict. Trust me, conflict, particularly with cats, is a fool's errand.

zerosugarbuzz

beauf wrote: »

The figures are disputed. But it says a lot when a thread provides little in the way of real stats, balance, then wants to ban anyone that disagrees with them. Maybe they should make the forum invite only like the soccer forums.

There obviously is an issue with cats, mainly feral in Ireland. Some studies suggest feral cats kill twice as many birds as domestic cats. Maybe more.

So if 2/3rd of Ireland cats are feral. How does that work out. Feral cars kill 5/6 of birds killed by cats? Someone better at math's might work it out. They say tall buildings and traffic kills a lot also. Much more than wind farms etc.

Of course feral cats kill more birds, they have to eat and have no home that provides them with food. The will also kill more rodents and probably have much shorter lives than domestic cats due to lack of care and attention.

tjhook

The ideal solution might be to have the facility to capture roaming cats and bring them to a pound, where there's a cost for their release. But realistically, there won't be anything like that put in place.

Home owners will just be expected to put up with local cats crapping and killing in their property.

However, those selfish owners shouldn't be surprised if Fluffy "runs away".

touts

Ok. Job done. Put down chilli powder as some one suggested. Also got some really sharp needle like cuttings from a bush at a relatives house. Just handling them left my hands sore even with gloves. A few of those stuck in the cat will make it piss off. Scattered the cuttings of that around the bed and two of the routes I think the cat uses to get into my garden. Finally if it persists and gets into the beds I've set 3 mouse traps. Not the rat trap sort that will decapitate the cat. Just enough to make it know all about it if it steps on one. If that doesn't work then I'll upgrade to the rat trap and make the creature "disappear".

magicbastarder

An Ri rua wrote: »

Should we also ban various birds for when they decimate mayfly and insect populations? Eg sparrows gorging on flying ants. Appalling behaviour.

i give up.

beauf

I'm curious if the water scarecrow work.