Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163595#Comment_122163595

In ireland it does.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163610#Comment_122163610

This is a statement - one you made:

it’s extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to the media

This is a question, one which I asked of you:

would you not say it’s extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to the media?

Here’s the difference; I’m happy to believe both Kleyn and Daly. I’ve never said the EI tour brought no positives, even if I think it’s also normal for a player to big-up his teammate.

You, however, want to completely believe Daly but completely dismiss Kleyn. It’s completely hyprocritical.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163615#Comment_122163615

BOD was 20. Darcy was 19. James Ryan was 20. Luke Fitzgerald had just turned 19.

You are correct. When the talent is there age doesn't matter.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163838#Comment_122163838

James ryan debuted for munster 😅.Darcy and bod where like 2 and a half decades ago not really proof of anything.

Munster have given more 19/20 year olds tha anyone caps id think but id not want ot to become the norm its not good for most

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163566#Comment_122163566

I absolutely understand why you don’t like me bringing up things you’ve said in the past tbh. FFF…

I'm sure you do, because I've repeatedly said it's bizarre and deliberately antagonistic.

But a couple of weeks ago you were relentlessly attacking me for a post from February 2023 that Healy was absolutely sh…..ort of the required quality.

Now you've pulled an even older one out of the air that's completely consistent with that, and you're acting like it's some sort of gotcha? I'm not seeing the point tbh.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163875#Comment_122163875

No one is taking about Munster here

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163907#Comment_122163907

I dont think its good for most players to play international rugby at 19. Its cool to see but often even if they are ready physically i think their body gives up earlier

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163595#Comment_122163595

Since the game went professional, Ireland have produced a few World Class players, I'd guess very few of them were capped at 19, BOD is probably comes closest.

Even if Ireland were renowned for it, Munster at the time of the previous EI tour had a new coaching team, a new game plan, had to rest International players and an injury list yet some posters are trying to read into a team selection that Rowntree had to be shown (by Ireland) how good Crowley was. It's daft. Had Frawley not got injured the discussion would probably be redundant as he was the heir apparent to Sexton.

The only issue most fans had with the EI tour (previous and proposed) is the timing of it. Why is this difficult to grasp?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163877#Comment_122163877

The point is I think you’re sometimes far too overly critical of Munster in a way that doesn’t match the reality. Like with Kleyn, Healy, Frisch, Crowley and now Rowntree.

You’re pointing to him being there for 3 years but you know he was only head coach for 2 games prior to the EI tour.

I will say tho, this was very good. 😉 Genuinely.

Healy was absolutely sh…..ort of the required quality.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163875#Comment_122163875

It's the Ireland thread, not the Munster one. SO not sure what relevance Munster youth policy has

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163838#Comment_122163838

Larmour was also very young when he was capped.

The likes of H Byrne etc all got caps in very early 20's.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163615#Comment_122163615

Not really true, Ireland have capped people when it made sense. In the case of Jailbert, he started the Ireland game and ended up with a serious knee injury which kept him out for a long time. hardly a success story?

Ntamack had won a 6 nations and a World Cup, played a few games with the French Barbarians and was fast tracked into the French team with the single focus of winning a home World Cup. They wanted him in the 2019 WC squad so he could get the experience of playing in a World Cup before the 2023.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163595#Comment_122163595

The point I'd make there is that France had nearly a decade of massive underachievement before that happened, where I think their highest 6 Nations finish was 3rd?

In that context, it's far easier to back a 19 year-old.

But we can't say anything like that of Ireland, who've had their most successful ever decade.

nerd69

Where lads like ryan, larmor, fitzgerald provincial starters at a specific position when they got their caps young 🤔

sydthebeat

lets not forget that due to Frances proliferation of professional clubs, then can give senior debuts to kids at much younger ages, and in much greater numbers, that ireland can with our 4 clubs.

before the U20RWC last year hadn't the starting french team something like 60 pro caps between them, and ireland had less than 10. They had more pro minutes between them than every other team in the competition combined.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122160116#Comment_122160116

The players who were capped since the EI' tour are all excellent players who would have been capped with or without the tour.

And there were 10 players taken from the Munster squad who would very likely have seen actual game time during that tour when we were forced to bring back internationals early at short notice, which also affected their minute management later on in the season

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164086#Comment_122164086

Yes, they also use the ProD2 to give players a chance to play at a lower level to get experience. Something Ireland doesn't have access to.

I don't see an issue with player progress in the Irish system.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164034#Comment_122164034

Pub quiz question here:

Ryan lined out for Munster against the Ireland U20 team in Thomond Park on his way back from a hamstring injury to gain valuable game time ahead of Ireland's summer tour to Japan. Ryan has played for Munster and Ireland before making his competitive debut for Leinster in September 2017.

I remember for Larmour when he was playing in the 6 nations, Leinster said he was at least 1 year ahead of his planned progress and they only expected him to be having a big impact in the Leinster team(not international) the season after

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164112#Comment_122164112

the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

ireland are in the best state we've ever been in.

different countries do it differently, and its naive in the extreme to point to other countries and say we should be doing that, when the condition are no where near similar.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164125#Comment_122164125

A lot of countries are trying to replicate Ireland, Australia to the point of hiring Ireland ex-coach and Performance Director, also Joe has hired that other lad who worked with him in leinster.

A few times Aus have made reference to the Irish system

England are trying, but failing, to implement central contracts

The system has worked better than ever and people are still moaning.

In terms of France, they ripped up the entire squad to win a home World Cup and didn't. So was it "better" than Ireland?

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164094#Comment_122164094

"very likely" but based on previous season they wouldn't have. Ireland might of went ahead without the Munster players and they very likely could have sat on the bench or in the stands. Then Ireland would be accused of bias. So really it's a no win.

I know it was a new coaching team that season but if you looked at previous seasons the chance of those players was slim to none. Even with the new coaching team the issue with the early games was the team trying to implement a whole new style of play and not because a few squad players went on a EI tour. IMO anyway

Personally I loved the EI tour, interesting games of rugby watching the young players etc.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164161#Comment_122164161

The past is not an accurate predictor of the future. Young players improve as they get older and more experienced, and last year was a new management ticket where this is even more true.

The whole concept was dumb from start to finish. And it didnt achieve anything that the irish management team couldn't have achieved by simply expanding the training squads to look at players who have a realistic chance of making the irish team.

Farrell brings the smallest squads he can get away with to tournaments.

And the tour games themselves were rubbish, turgid affairs against half baked opponents as warm up games to a 'festival of rugby' in front of tiny crowds in the middle of the day

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164207#Comment_122164207

It is a fairly simple fact that Jack Crowley, to use one very prominent example, was a clear beneficiary of the EI tour.

If he doesn't go on that tour and play well, it is utterly inconceivable he gets capped against Fiji and Australia that Autumn, and from there makes the 6N squad (ahead of Joey Carbery).

At the time he was selected, nobody thought he was remotely close to that. If you go back on this very thread and read the posts at the time of the tour, absolutely nobody even mentioned him as a loss to Munster's depth at the time, and he wasn't considered (by anyone who posted on the topic on this board) part of Munster's first choice 23 at that time.

To go from that to being an Irish international in pretty short order is solely down to the EI tour.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164207#Comment_122164207

Agree to disagree

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164351#Comment_122164351

Just to point out tho, this can all be true, but can all be down just to Farrell seeing him up close.

It doesn't necessarily mean he improved because of the tour. He can still have been just as good a prospect (and was, imo) completely independent of that tour.

I'm not convinced 10 days in camp and 3 games vs the likes of the Griquas transformed him into an international prospect, talent-wise, rather than just from seeing him up close.

It also doesn't follow that Rowntree didn't see him as a prospect either.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164444#Comment_122164444

No, I completely agree, I'm not saying he became appreciably any better a player for going on the tour. It might have given him a shot of confidence, but the primary point I'm making here is it propelled him up the chain and showcased his skillset in a way that hadn't happened at that point.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164459#Comment_122164459

I'd agree and that's fine, it clearly propelled him up the Ireland chain, but the further point I'd make is I don't think we can infer that, simultaneously, Rowntree saw his as down the Munster chain, and the EI changed that.

He was in charge for 1 game before the EI squad was announced. As soon as the players returned, Rowntree picked him as back-up 10 vs Bulls (behind Carbery), at 15 vs Leinster because of injuries and at 10 vs Ulster.

That all took place before the Fiji game.

Lord Palmerston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164524#Comment_122164524

We just honestly don't know the reality though of where Rowntree saw him prior to the EI tour.

I do honestly think given his talent and how natural a fit he was for Prendergast's system they were quickly going to identify him as their best option anyway pretty quickly.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163838#Comment_122163838

Well, assuming these are correct Ryan and BOD weren't 19 when they first played for ireland like the two examples.

I guess you could be right and we haven't produced fitzgerald or darcy level talents in the last twenty yeas or so.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164000#Comment_122164000

and now Rowntree

Yeah, fair point, I mean last night i said “I think Rowntree is brilliant”. I was bang out of order there. I don’t know where you got the idea that I’m critical of Crowley.

If you ignore the good things I say about Munster and only enter the bad ones onto your spreadsheet, then of course you’ll come to that conclusion.

It’s very deliberate and utterly bizarre.

I am a big fan of Munster, I always have been. My beef is with the sheer number of Munster fans - you included - who are so resentful of Ireland and Farrell.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122164018#Comment_122164018

I mean, yea it usually doesn't make sense to cap someone that young in ireland because we tend to play guys intensively a bit later. That's the point.

salmocab

this is like a chess game with just two kings left on the board, it won’t end until someone just gets bored. Not a new point made in about a hundred posts and once again it’s become crap from the same handful of posters