Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762598#Comment_117762598

you say that like its a good thing?

also its not ridiculous, its perfectly logical and warranted

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762711#Comment_117762711

If Carty is the best option we have then we are in more trouble that we thought. He'll be 29 at the end of this month so not exactly a young lad. By his own admission he hasn't been able to deliver consistently either. A 29 year old who struggles to deliver consistently can't really be the future, can he?

AbusesToilets

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762727#Comment_117762727

He's delivered to a higher standard than any of the other options imo. You can work on consistency, if the talent is there.

Dubinusa

We lack quality! We're producing good players and that's it! We don't have any 10's that would be considered even close to the best at their position. Same for loose head. There's no top quality players to choose from. Hooker is the same. Decent players and all, but probably wouldn't make a name in England or France.

Factor in a subpar coaching ticket and well...

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762710#Comment_117762710

Ah yeah. Ok If we're dismissing anyone we don't agree with, even if they have first hand experience and we don't, then it becomes much less complicated to reach a conclusion. But much less likely to be accurate. If we're ignoring Cooney, who else can we ignore? Should we ignore the evidence when a player says that they respect Sexton?

I'll probably just take the evidence on board rather than deciding to throw out any evidence that I don't think backs up my conclusion.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762865#Comment_117762865

Carty isn't as talented as Carbery, he's not as consistent as Ross Byrne, he's not as good all-round as Burns and he's seven years older than Harry Byrne.

You can 'work on consistency' but he turns 29 in a couple of weeks. If he's going to achieve the significant levels of improvement required of him, he'd want to get the lead out.

PMC83

We need Mad Dog. And we need him with haircut circa 2106.

OneLungDavy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762922#Comment_117762922

Kelleher is up there with any of Englands hookers, agreed about the French though. Marchand is on another level to everyone, I doubt any of the English hookers or Kelleher make the French squad ahead Marchand or Chat, possibly Bourgarit also.

TRC10

Sexton started 11 games last season.

He went off injured in 6 of them. He also had about 2 good games in there.

How anyone thinks he can be relied on to get through 4 group games (granted he won't play them all, but 3 will be a big ask for him) and then go out and win a 1/4 final in 2 years is beyond me.

In 2 years we'll be looking back on this period after Sexton inevitably get's injured and we've lost another 1/4 with an undercooked out half and saying "we really should have given Carbery and Byrne more games".

It happened in 2015 with Madigan, it happened in 2019 with Carty and we're making the exact same mistakes leading up to 2023.

Sexton should not have been given a new central contract.

b.gud

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625884#Comment_117625884

I've said it before, see above, but Conneys comments about Sexton are blown way out of proportion and people are reading into it something that isn't there.

I've timestamped the video below to where this all stems from. In the video Carty brings up the fact that he used to be a narky shouty outhalf and Conney said to him that kind of communication doesn't work for him and as a result Jack changed how he communicates with others and Cooney admires that as he has said it to other out halves and they haven't changed.

In interview promoting the campaign he was obviously asked if this relates to Sexton and this was his response

Potentially. When I first started playing with Leinster I did find it quite difficult, the way he spoke to me. We did play a bit with Ireland. I don’t know, I won’t really expand on that too much.

There is no mention of Sexton "stifles creativity". There is no long tirade about Sexton because Cooney now feels free to say it because his Irish career is over. He was asked a direct question and answered it, IMO, in a fairly diplomatic way. Also if you look in the coverage in the Indo, the Times and the 42 you'll notice that the Times and the 42 both lead with Cooney being a bit unsure about why he didn't get more time with Ireland in the 6 Nations with the Times just using the quotes briefly in the middle of the article and quickly moving along. The 42 doesn't mention it at all. The only one to make it a big thing was the Indo who had a whole click bait article on it with Sexton in the headline and nothing of substance in the article.

https://youtu.be/dSmeLbjMk18?t=492

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117763671#Comment_117763671

No one thinks he will get through 4 group games. The only people who think he will be the outhalf for the 2023 world cup are the people who want to pre-emptively moan about how awful it will be.

Carbery almost literally could not have been given more gametime. He has been injured. You could play Ross Byrne in every single game between now and the World Cup and he still won't be good enough - the same goes for Carty in Japan tbh. I would have had Jackson as the backup flyhalf in 15 rather than Madigan which is where I will potentially mildly agree with you but Madigan has 30 caps. His issue was not lack of gametime, it was that he was never a great flyhalf.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764170#Comment_117764170

But it will be awful, and we're sleepwalking right into it.

I was talking about Harry Byrne not Ross.

People will say "he's not experienced enough" or I'm "overhyping him" I don't think I am and he's one of just 2 out halves who, with game time, could be good enough.

Carbery has been injured, yes. And he didn't play well in the summer. But we know he's capable of being excellent. My fear is that we start Sexton in the ultimately uncompetitive November games instead of giving Carbery the big game experience he needs.

I don't mind dropping a few November games bedding in Joey and Harry.

France would undoubtably have won the series in Australia if they brought their best players. But they didn't and they'll be much stronger in 2023 for it.

I'd much rather we suffer now, than suffer in 2023, which is where were headed.

Podge_irl

Sexton is not going to be a professional rugby player in Nov 2023, never mind playing in the world cup. We are not sleep walking into anything.

I, genuinely, was all aboard the train of "throw HB in cause, feck it, what's the worst that could happen". Still largely on it, as I have no faith in the alternatives. But I have no real problem with not doing it either, because he is clearly not good enough at the moment. I would wager that ever tier 1 team will have a player in their 23 in the upcoming world cup who does not yet have an test cap - there is plenty of time. You can't magic test level players out of thin air and you can't just throw them into international games to make them good enough.

I'd much rather we suffer now, than suffer in 2023, which is where were headed.

Or we could suffer now and suffer in 2023. This is a weird false dichotomy that people always through up and it doesn't really bear true. The only NH team to win the RWC did the exact opposite of what everyone suggests. Also plenty of teams have gone through deliberate rebuilds to get nowhere.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764427#Comment_117764427

If Ross Byrne and Billy Burns are good enough to be in match-day squads than Harry Byrne is too.

Podge_irl

Then why is Harry Byrne behind Ross for Leinster?

I don't massively disagree, but considering my opinion of Byrne/Burns on the international stage that doesn't say much. Like I said above, I am onboard with the idea of just throwing Harry in there cause of the longterm upside but I can understand why the coaches might think its too soon. It took Denis Hickie a while to recover from his international debut when he wasn't ready. If we assume HB will be starting come RWC 23 (and that's a big assumption) I don't think starting him now vs next summer is going to make a big difference.

molloyjh

I really don't know what people expect at 10. Since ROG retired we've looked to Ian Madigan, Paddy Jackson and Joey Carbery as back-ups/heirs to the jersey. All 3 failed for a variety of reasons (Carbery may yet come good and I hope he does). We looked at Ross Byrne, Jack Carty and Billy Burns since Joey has been injured. Harry Byrne, who barely played above low end Pro14, got his debut this year having already been in camp before.

There's barely a 10 in the country that we haven't looked at. There isn't some magic spell that the IRFU can cast to make guys better or more ready. Someone like Harry Byrne needs game time for Leinster more than anything else right now. If he deserves more caps we know he'll get them. Everyone else has.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764775#Comment_117764775

Right, everyone has had chances to step up and none have been more than adequate, ever. I can't imagine that Farrell is banking on Sexton being fit and ready to go in 27 months, or even assuming he will be. But he has no reason to exclude his from his plans right now. Is Carberry/Byrnes/Carty/Burns more likely to develop into reliable test ten than JS is to be fit? Farrell is keeping his options open, as he should.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764384#Comment_117764384

“My fear is that we start Sexton in the ultimately uncompetitive November games instead of giving Carbery the big game experience he needs.”

You simultaneously say the AI’s are ultimately uncompetitive yet offer Carbery big game experience. You can’t have it both ways

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764775#Comment_117764775

I've no idea how Madigan and Jackson are relevant to this discussion. Neither are every playing for Ireland again.

Harry Byrne is different to Burns, Ross Byrne and Carty because Harry Byrne is a genuine elite prospect at 10. If Harry Byrne get's the requisite game time, has his games hand picked and drip fed into international rugby, he can be a genuine test quality 10 in two years. Some thing that isn't the case with the other options.

Burns, Madigan, Ross.B or Carty were never going to be long term solutions. Harry Byrne is, and should be in the squad ahead of all of those guys.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764899#Comment_117764899

I really have no idea how you can be so certain about how good Harry Byrne will be. I really like the look of him and he has a lot of potential, but then we've seen guys with potential not live up to it before.

Either way, he's gotten a debut despite not really having earned it the same way many others have had to. I really don't know how you can claim that the IRFU are sleepwalking into anything when they've basically capped and had a look at almost every eligible and half decent 10 we've had over the last several years. That was the relevance of Madigan and Jackson. The IRFU have been actively trying to avoid this exact situation for years. We aren't sleepwalking anywhere.

sydthebeat

between joey carbery, jack carty, ross byrne and billy burns they have 55 !! caps between them.

not bad for a team who are conservative, sleep walking and are under the iron fist of Herr Sexton

Former Former Former

The other thing is that it's been years since any province had an NIQ out half. Gopperth was the last I can think of and he's gone years.

So the IRFU has even cleared the path for any would be successor, and still we wait.

Not sure what else we could have done tbh

arsebiscuits1

I thought about this life after Sexton and depth at 10 a while back.

Came to the conclusion that there are a lot of countries in the World who probably look at our situation with envy at the quality we have.

No depth at 10 is not a new or unique problem for countries to face.

The All Blacks (shockingly) are the only team who've had consistent top class cover at 10 over the last decade.

Themselves and England are really the only teams who have top class options who can take them all the way to the biggest honour of the RWC regardless of if their first or second choice starts... and it's a bit of a stretch with England tbh...

I think Smith is a supremely gifted player. As is Farrell. Ford is as good a 3rd choice as you could want too even if I think he's capable but limited.

France have top tier quality in Ntamack and some promising talent with Jalibert but he's currently not a player I'd fancy starting knock out rugby.

South Africa despite being World Champions have a worrying lack of depth at 10. Despite all the headlines of Morne Steyn he's not a serious backup option for them. Jantjies would do well to displace any of the current provincial 10s if he moved to Ireland tomorrow. If Pollard drops so do their chances (although South African rugby is better placed than any other nation to cope with 10 man rugby and succeed)

Wales have very little behind Biggar barring an injury prone Anscombe who has limited top tier ability and Callum Sheedy who I'd rate as extremely capable but not a top tier prospect.

Scotland have arguably less behind Russell who himself is his own worst enemy

Australia are unfortunately not really in this discussion either given the state of rugby there now.

Italy have Garbisi

All in all I think we're extremely lucky with the options we have and our perception is skewed by that of Sexton whose a pretty tough barometer to measure against

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765290#Comment_117765290

Christian Lealiifano at Ulster but that was short term and a pretty understandable stop gap

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765679#Comment_117765679

agreed with most of that

England have a lot of options past the 3 mentioned. Umaga, Vunipola, Simmonds would all be able to do a job for them. I'm on the fence about smith, hes been great in the prem recently but i think the quality of that competition is massively overhyped to be honest. he was very poor in europe so itll be interesting to see how he does when it comes to better opposition. ford on the other hand comes in for a serious amount of stick despite not really deserving it

france are fairly well stocked. belleau is quality too and theyve had some good 10s in the under 20s for the last while.

wales are a little short but have options. evans isnt bad but is a bit hit and miss

id argue adam hastings was coming into his own for scotland when russell was out of the squad. maybe not the same level of flair but he has a much more complete game for me. but russell is seen as some sort of a god so he'll stay as the starting 10

tommy allan is quite good too but italy only having two teams limits their options

aus have a few decent options but all fairly unproven. lolesio looks to be their best option going forward

sa are a strange one. for the gameplan they play, their back up options at 10 (jantjies, willimse, frans steyn) are poor at game management and two of them are better suited to other positions. i wouldnt be surprised if goosen comes into the reckoning when he goes back to the bulls

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117765965#Comment_117765965

All valid points in fairness.

But all the players you mentioned I don't think are as good or better than all the Irish equivalent options at the same point in the depth chart

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117766031#Comment_117766031

goosen, ford, simmonds and hastings are at least on par with our options though

molloyjh

I think it's fair to say that the overall point AB1 was making is true. Test level 10s are not at all common. Even looking at France now is one thing, but rewind back a couple of years and they were in real bother at 10 despite 14 teams to source talent from. If we are on par with the likes of England then we are doing okay given that they have 3 times the number of pro teams that we have. We've been very lucky to have guys taking over from their predecessors the way we've had at 10 on the last 20 years. We can't simply expect to have no break in quality ever. It inevitably happens to most, if not all teams.

And even at that, had McKinley not been injured or PJ not done what he did then we may not even be having this conversation. If Joey wasn't injured for so much of the last couple of years we might not be having this conversation. Based on how we were developing players we could have been in a good place at 10 had circumstances been a bit different. And if Harry comes good the it's a very short term issue despite all of that.

ljsulster

Michael Lowry anyone?

Dubinusa

HB is in a situation whereby, he is stalled behind Sexton and RB. He hasn't seen top level rugby. In a Euro knock out match and if all Leinster 10 options were available, can anybody see Leo not start Sexton? If HB gets a run of 6 or 7 league starts and then there's a knockout game, I think he's a back up at best. I doubt Leinster would risk silverware and not give Sexton or RB the nod. I see it as the experience and caliber of Sexton dictates the matchday team, regardless of how HB is going.

I doubt we'll see the best of HB until Sexton is retired. I don't think Leo would select Harry ahead of Sexton. It's a tough place to be in. Sexton being the captain etc and Ross already established. I think Harry will have his time... but not for the upcoming season. Quality players must play in the big games and Harry isn't there yet.