Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

bilston

Hard one really.

Some players need a carrot, others need a stick, some need a combo. It's the sort of thing players and coaches learn with experience. You'd think Jonny has probably worked that out for himself by now.

As for Cooney commenting on it...as Molloy says he knows his Ireland days are done, personally I don't have a problem with him speaking his mind even if it's uncomfortable for Sexton. But actually, my opinion of Sexton is that he won't give it a seconds thought.

b.gud

With regards the Cooney thing I think context is the key thing that is missing here. Cooney didn't just rock up to an interview and unprompted start talking abit how tough it was to play along side Sexton. He is promoting the latest Tackle Your Feelings campaign alongside Jack Carty and they released a video for it, linked below. The video focuses a lot on their relationship as friends, things like in a recent game against each other Carty made a couple of mistakes and Cooney gave him a bit of genuine encouragement instead of doing nothing or sledging him. Another story was about how Carty used be very shout at and giving out to his 9 and Cooney came up to him and said how it doesn't work for him so Carty adjusted his style with Cooney and the 2 formed a good playing relationship where they both felt good playing with each other. As I typed this out I actually think it was Jack who brought up the story, I'd need to watch again to confirm, and Cooney just said about how much it said about Jack because he had said similar to other 10s previously and they basically said well I'm not changing. Fast forward to promotion of the campaign and journos are obviously going to push for more details on that because a story that relates to Sexton being impossible to play with is obviously going to get more clicks.

https://youtu.be/dSmeLbjMk18

Teferi

Saw that doing the rounds the last few days. Dunno why it's getting traction - almost every professional who's played alongside Sexton has called him a narky bollocks. It's a mark of the man that he seems liked off the pitch and his teammates wind him up about - the heaslip interview always springs to mind.

TomsOnTheRoof

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117625545#Comment_117625545

I don't see how Cooney speaking about his experiences is in anyway bad. Sexton is petulant on the pitch. Most people can see that. He has been a wonderful player for Ireland and is definitely one of the best 10's we've ever produced. However all that skill and ability shouldn't excuse him if he's acting the wanker.

Former Former Former

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626132#Comment_117626132

I suppose the question is whether it's OK for Cooney to be calling out named people. I don't think it's great tbh.

b.gud

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626195#Comment_117626195

The thing is though I'd be 99% certain he didn't call him out by name. If you look at the video I posted a few posts back the only people in Irish rugby that Cooney names are Dan MacFarland, Jack Carty and Dave McSharry. What he did do was make a comment that he has played with out halves, plural, who were very negative in their communication and he said it didn't work for him. If you look at the text from the article linked he never actually says Sextons name he says "he", to me that would indicate that he was asked a direct question about Sexton

molloyjh

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626132#Comment_117626132

Which is why in my post before that I said that Cooneys comments weren't without merit. So I dont actually disagree with you about that.

But if being asked about any player specifically he's best to just say he isn't going to comment about any individual players. Especially if this is a campaign about mental health. Having Sexton front and centre with a "this guy treats people like crap and doesn't have the maturity to cop on to himself" is hardly in itself a positive mental health angle given that it likely will bother Sexton. If you really want to take a positive stance on mental health the you should be ensuring the media don't get headline articles like this to publish about an individual.

dudley72

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626132#Comment_117626132

But he isn't, the only people who have a problem with Sexton have a different agenda, normally down to provincial issues. If a player from another province then acted like this they would be shouting about "da passion" of that player. The number having an issue seemed to increase massively once he was picked as captain ahead of certain other players. Then it was ever game no matter what he did for Ireland it was the same group having a problem. Yet Sexton if anything had calmed a lot down compared to previous years.

If Cooney had a problem with Sexton then he goes to Sexton about it and tries to come to a working agreement. Like what happens in jobs everyday of the week. Instead he went off sulking to the press to get the boot in, just before a player finish's his career. He played with Sexton what 10 years ago and never managed to bring it to the press then?

Sexton was always driven yet multiples 9's have played with him and no issue. This includes players from NZ, he has played with 9s on the Lions and no problems.

It was always interesting the Sexton/ROG relationship, they hated each other when rivals, once that was over they are mates. People just choose to ignore that as well.

molloyjh

Was on the42 this morning having a look at articles and there's 1 featuring Cooney and another featuring Carty. Both are talking about selection disappointments, but both have a very different take.

Carty says outright that he doesn't feel hard done by, is disappointed that he hasn't pushed on, has had good talks with Farrell and knows what he needs to do to get back in the frame for selection.

Cooney says he isn't getting honest feedback from Farrell, has done everything that was asked of him and has no idea how, when he feels he's done more than enough, he can get himself back in the frame.

Cooneys language in both the selection thing and the Sexton thing is very much "I'm doing everything I can, I'm playing well and I'm a leader and I'm mature and I know how stuff should work and I deserve stuff. It's others are the reason that this isn't happening for me". When reading the 3 articles together it really is stark the difference between Cartys attitude and Cooneys. Cooney really isn't doing himself any favours at all I don't think.

dudley72

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626723#Comment_117626723

He done an interview last year on one of the podcast(around Aug/Sept). It was similar, I have done everything, I am kicking great, the whole interview was more or less how great he was and he should be selected.

molloyjh

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626773#Comment_117626773

Yeah, reading those 2 articles it really is all about how he's brilliant and the only reason there are issues is down to other people and their flaws. Which, compared to Cartys really in-depth and honest interview about where he is at, really makes Cooney look like he's missing some of that maturity he's spoken about. Not to mention the self awareness he claims to have.

aloooof

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626662#Comment_117626662

I’m not sure I buy the provincialism line tbh. (No doubt there was an element, but not any more than usual for any other issue on here).

Maybe the number having an issue increased when he was picked as captain because the captain should be held to a higher standard?

Having said that, the only petulant incident I can recall that I’d be critical of since he became captain was the shaking of the head towards the coaches box while being subbed off for Ross Byrne vs England. You just can’t do that as captain.

stephen_n

With Cooney, if he didn’t like the way Sexton talked. You could see why he failed to progress with Joe in charge. Sexton seems to be a bit chill compared to what Joe was supposedly like.

AbusesToilets

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117626723#Comment_117626723

Yes and no. It has been fairly perplexing as to why he hasn't gotten more opportunities. His form has certainly warranted it over the last few years, especially on comparison to guys who have been picked. We want players with confidence etc, much like Sexton has for example. Can hardly blame him for having that.

molloyjh

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117628989#Comment_117628989

It's got nothing to do with wanting a guy to have confidence or not. The way these interviews come across (and I should point out that they can easily be edited in a way that misrepresents what's being said) he comes across as a guy who blames others for his misfortune. People aren't being nice enough to him or aren't being honest enough with him and he doesn't know why they are being like that because he's definitely better than that himself. He even talks about how he allows that stuff to fuel his frustration and anger.

You don't use a mental health platform to offer up ways and means for the media to target an individual based on their flaws or to talk about how much more mature you are than others or talk about how the national coach isn't being open and honest etc etc. Using that campaign to put a (negative) spotlight on individuals is surely the polar opposite of what the whole thing is about.

None of this may be in any way representative of who Cooney is. Its a snapshot that is edited for effect. But if it is a window into his attitude and mindset then I can totally get why he wasn't cut out for top level professional sport. I'm not saying he should have simply taken the crap that Sexton dished out, but the alternative isn't simply b!tch about it in the press. He could have tried to deal with it in some way. He isn't the only guy to play alongside Sexton but others have managed to find ways of making it work. And even if that wasn't possible, if asked he should have just refused to name names. After all, what exactly is he achieving with these interviews?

Bazzo

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117624673#Comment_117624673

What behemoths are you getting smashed by? The family border collie?

AbusesToilets

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117629340#Comment_117629340

Did he name Sexton, doesn't sound like he did. You can look at it as a player not taking responsibility for his failures, but there's also the possibility that he is right in what he says. Perhaps he did do everything asked of him, and didn't get picked or something to that effect. As with most of these issues, we're never going to know.

sprucemoose

reading dave alreds book at the moment and its interesting that he basically recommends positive reinforcement for everything rather than negativity - saying 'this can be so much better we need to increase our concentration' rather than 'ffs this is shite we're not concentrating'. considering the calibre of people he works with (sexton included) im wondering is there something in that rather than the berating that apparently JS was known for and sexton seems to be continuing. looking at world cup winning 10s, while they all drove standards and performed at a very high level, i dont think any of them (wilkinson included) had the same mentality that sexton seems to have regarding mistakes etc, - carter being the best 10 ever and known for being quite relaxed. As Gerry Thornley once said 'if he were any more laid back hed be asleep'

Interested Observer

Far worse players than Cooney have picked up caps for Ireland. Enjoyable hearing guys speaking their minds anyway, who wants to listen to players talking like media trained drones?

dudley72

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117631941#Comment_117631941

Yes he named Sexton both at Leinster at start of his career and then mentioned at Ireland

Former Former Former

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117631941#Comment_117631941

In the quotes that were reported, he named Sexton.

Former Former Former

'The Six Nations, I kind of left without any answers' - Cooney opens up on Ireland frustration (the42.ie)

Like, some of these comments are extraordinary.

Cooney has had contact with Farrell since, but still feels unclear on what the Irish coaches want to see from him.

“It probably was just more clarity (that I wanted). We talked on the phone recently and I felt I didn’t really get it again, so maybe we’re not on as good terms as we would have been a year ago. 

I’m the type of guy that I can accept if he’s going to be honest with me, and I would prefer him just to tell me what I need to do."

John; sometimes there isn't anything you can do. Sometimes, the other guy is just better than you.

AbusesToilets

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632697#Comment_117632697

What's extraordinary about it? The presumption seems to be that Cooney is wrong and at fault. Could equally be that it's as he said, he hasn't been given clear answers.

siltirocker

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632697#Comment_117632697

True, but I think we can all admit here that Cooney over the past 2 or 3 years has been right up there. He was nominated for best player in Europe at some point even. With that in mind, I am sure its understandably for him not to accept that line, and or accept being, arguably, 7th choice SH.

TRC10

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632697#Comment_117632697

I think just saying that "the other guy is just better" or, as someone said earlier, "he was just never good enough" is pretty reductive.

Anybody who watched Ulster in the 2019/20 will know that that wasn't the case. Cooney was undoubtably in the top 2 scrum halves in Europe that season, and if there was a Lions tour that summer he would probably have been on it. He was also nominated for European player of the year iirc.

So when people say "he just wasn't good enough", I think that's just revisionism. He clearly was good enough. There's no way JGP or Marmion were better than him.

Tbh I always had a feeling there was perhaps a personality clash there, with Farrell or one of the senior players. He was too good a player for it to have been as simple as "he's just not good enough".

John "Stuart my face doesn't fit McCloskey" Cooney seems to be about right

Former Former Former

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632781#Comment_117632781

And in that 2019/20 season, his form was rewarded, he was the reserve SH in the 2020 Six Nations. He got three caps off the bench, maybe he'd have got a start against Italy if the season hadn't ended early.

Maybe it's harsh to say he was never good enough - but equally it's overblown to say he was never given a fair shake.

TRC10

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632846#Comment_117632846

3 cameos off the bench and then discarded for the last 2 games.

I think it is fair to say he was never given a fair chance. I know you never pick a team purely on form but he arguably should have been starting ahead of Murray (I'm not saying he should have been, he probably shouldn't have, but a strong argument could be made).

Anyway, I never thought ability was ever the issue with Cooney, and that's now been confirmed.

molloyjh

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117632754#Comment_117632754

Maybe I haven't expressed my point well enough, so apologies if not. You are absolutely right that what Cooney could be saying is true. The point that I am making is that when you look at how he talks about the selection disappointments and the Sexton thing, he frames himself in the most wonderful light and the objects if his frustrations in a purely negative light. The way that he talks about all of this stuff is about pure finger pointing. He's been great, he's been brilliant, he couldn't possibly do any more or be any better at anything. There's a real air of entitlement to the way he's framing it all.

Now as I said before some or all of that could be sensational editing, but if it's even remotely close to his mindset then I'd tend to believe the reason he isn't in the Ireland squad has nothing to do with his technical abilities and more to do with his attitude. "John knows best everyone, don't you know" kind of thing.

I mean whatever about Sexton (and his comments have real merit there) I've heard nobody knocking Farrell for not being an open and honest guy. He actually seems pretty popular with the players. And, I know I've banged this drum plenty, using a mental health platform to have a dig at individuals seems like poor form to me. I was almost reminded of the Father Ted Golden Cleric speech.."and now we move on to the liars".

AbusesToilets

That's a fair enough point. I can see how it comes off very one sided, and you're just never going to get a coach to talk about these things openly.