Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Former Former Former

I'd like to see Beirne get a proper run at six, but that might be hard if Munster continue to see him only as a second row. Hopefully this Jenkins guy is decent and they won't need to play Beirne in the row.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117774340#Comment_117774340

think POM is definitely in the mix at 7 too tbh (whether people like him or not)

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117774725#Comment_117774725

People have been calling for pom to be dropped since he got his first cap tbh

OneLungDavy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117774340#Comment_117774340

POM is in the reckoning for 7. People are being harsh on him, he's been very good when he's played over the last year. His link play has been suberb and he actually looks like he can ball-carry again, I wouldn't write him off.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117774725#Comment_117774725

Yeah potentially.

It depends if Beirne plays lock or 6.

If Beirne is at 6 he brings the breakdown threat and lineout ability.

If he's at lock it opens the door for POM's skillset in the back row.

For example, if Doris or Coombes play 6, I could definitely see POM at 7.

But I see a potentially world class player in Connors and I'd love to see him grow in the 7 shirt. I think he's fantastic.

molloyjh

The problem we have this season is that the European games aren't scheduled until December. So the Nov squad will need to be picked purely in league form. With the first few weeks against Bok-less SA sides there's a limited enough window for players to make their cases. And if the fixture list sees a province playing a few handy games like Zebre at home etc, we're not going to see too many "showcase" type games. Anyone know the plan for the interpro games? I'm assuming we'll see some in October?

Lost Ormond

Kick off times confirmed for the November tests. Really dont like those times. early kick offs and a Sunday game. much prefer the 5 o clock and later games...

https://twitter.com/autumnnations/status/1428341460211048453

D

Yeah_Right

Why are they scheduling 2 games at 1pm on Saturday?? Move one of them to Friday night.

Must love hardship

I think we really need to focus on sorting out a 3 or 4 key positions and depth in those Jersey's over the 4 November International games.

No. 1 Need Younger cover for Healy.

Maybe Jack mcgrath gets back to ful fitness since his op and dave kilkoyne is still there but both are similar age to healy.

Mike Milne, Josh wycherly or Eric O sullivan need to get game time for their club this season and then potentially Country If good enough.

No. 9 Need Replacement for Murray

Murray has been on the decline for a few years now. sadly he's not the world class player he was 3/4 years ago. Doak needs to push past cooney, blade needs to stay ahead of marmion. and casey needs to push past Murray at club level. JGP will most likely be back on the bench at leinster and as a result shouldn't be afforded anymore ireland caps with these younger players coming through.

Give Doak, Casey, blade a start each v

No. 10.

You have 4 games in the autumn window.

Carberry & H/R Byrne (who ever is starting for Leinster) should get 2 starts each if fit. We know what sexton can offer us and that Billy burns isn't int standard. 18 months out from a world cup with nothing on the line if we don't start them now against nz and Argentina when do we play them? In a 1/4 final after an injury.

Back 3 needs a shake up too but we have depth.

But the most important position we need to sort out 18 months from a worldcup is our attack coach. Mike catt has been terrible. The English game papered over a lot of cracks but we should review the previous 6 nations games and how we played with the ball in hand. We simply had no plan, no idea. We brought In o'connell just before the 6 nations last year and got a bounce in set piece. I just hope we see a new attack coach brought in before the November Internationals because if we wait until after it we are goosed. Playing the way we played at the last 6 nations won't give us a chance of getting within 20 points of south africa and then potentially New Zealand in the world cup 1/4 final.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117774911#Comment_117774911

I'd say Pom is a very good option for the no. 20 Jersey.

Covers all positions across back row adequately...

But not better than any of the 1st or 2nd choice starting options at 6 7 or 8.

realhorrorshow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776529#Comment_117776529

Cooney is the heartbeat of the Ulster team, as well as arguably the best scrumhalf in the country. Doak is not going to supersede him any time soon.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776529#Comment_117776529

definitely need to try options at 15. keenan deserves to be first choice but none of the other options have stood out recently. itll be interesting to see where zebo plays for munster, haley was fantastic last season so there are no guarantees that SZ will slot back in. hopefully one of those/ addison/ lowry will get decent gametime

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776545#Comment_117776545

VDF>POM>Connors

if beirne is at 6 id have POM 19 covering 4-7 and a specialist 8 (coombes/conan/doris) 20, would have proper cover in every forward position then

bilston

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776546#Comment_117776546

Yes you're probably right but I think this will be the last year of Cooney's current contract, maybe he will extend but with his Ireland hopes seemingly gone who would blame if he opts for a two year pay day in France. That might lead to a fast tracking of Doak in the second half of the season. But that's for Ulster. He is miles away from the Ireland conversation.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776529#Comment_117776529

Chopping and changing your scrum half for every game isn't an effective way of building depth. It's not like out half where we've very few options. There's loads of proven international 9s available. Doak is a massive talent but just shouldn't be there ahead of Casey, Blade, Cooney, Marmion and JGP. He's yet to play 80 minutes of senior rugby.

You say Burns isn't international quality (which is fine), but then make the case to start Ross Byrne, who has proven on multiple occasions he's no more international standard than Burns.

Farrell brought in Catt because he knows him and they worked together previously. They're old mates, he won't give him the boot unfortunately. Both got their jobs, not on merit, but because they happened to work with other coaches in the past. Farrell with Schmidt, and Catt with Farrell.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776717#Comment_117776717

The only 3 scrum halves ulster have on their books are Cooney, doak and shanahan.

Doak will be no.1 this year by the time the champions cup roles around...

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776607#Comment_117776607

How does one come to the conclusion that POM is a better 7 than Connors?

When was the last time POM had a game as good as Connors had in Murrayfield this year?

What aspects of a 7s game is POM better at than Connors?

POM was only shoehorned into 7 because Doris forced him out of the 6 shirt.

I'm not writing POM off, but sometimes I feel the praise he gets from some is a bit OTT. He doesn't has the impact on games he used to. He still has something to offer, but no way is he a better 7 than Connors.

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776747#Comment_117776747

I disagree on byrne not being of int standard. A couple of his starts came against a a fully stacked English team on way to a world cup final behind a retreating pack.

He has played very well at champions cup level. I haven't even seen burns do that

Would burns get in the leinster 23 for a heineken cup game?

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776750#Comment_117776750

Doak was excellent in the u20s six nations. It's a big claim to say he'll be no.1 by champions cup. But If he can be better than the other options then I'd welcome it. He looked like a good leader and decision maker too.

TRC10

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776815#Comment_117776815

Well then you clearly haven't watched much of Ulster in Europe, because he has done. Cooney gets the headlines because he goal kicks and the play goes through him, but Burns consistently plays well within that system.

As a Leinster fan, I'd have him ahead of R.Byrne in any 23 personally.

Byrne was poor against England x2

Poor against Georgia

and poor against France

He botched multiple overlaps v France by standing still and failing to square the defence and shovelling it on to the next man and allowing the French defence to drift.

Our attack was firing well against Georgia until Burns came off for Byrne.

Neither are good enough though, which is why I'd prioritise giving minutes to Carbery and H.Byrne.

sprucemoose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776812#Comment_117776812

id argue hes a bigger threat at the breakdown. connors is a more effective tackler

even if we were to say connors is definitely a better 7, id have POM over him depending on the make up of the rest of the back row (id have VDF starting over either of them). beirne at 6 offers breakdown threat and lineout options, POM at 7 offers breakdown threat, lineout options and his carrying has improved massively recently, this allows a ball-carrier to be selected at 8 as some of the other stuff can be taken care of by both flankers

not saying connors isnt good at the breakdown or ball carrying, but id have POM above him in those categories. Hes a great player either way but ive found him to be hot and cold for ireland

id also argue the opposite regarding POM, some of the criticism he gets is OTT. his irish form in 19 and 20 had dipped but that was true for most of the squad. he was coming into some very good form towards the 6N and would have been hard to dislodge were it not for recklessness (which was very poor on his part seeing as he was already sent off for a similar incident earlier in the season)

Must love hardship

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776862#Comment_117776862

Yeah I actually watched him in Europe . Lost their last 3 champions cup games I think.. maybe faired better in challange Cup but didn't win it out..

Ulster were poor last year. Failed to win all bar 1 of their last 6 games and neither cooney or Burns started that game.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776862#Comment_117776862

Not meant at just you specifically TRC, as I've seen others say similar but I find the “You clearly haven’t seen X…” stuff that creeps in here from time to time pretty irritating….

bilston

Burns has played well for Ulster in Europe...been man of the match a couple of times as well so not sure where the argument that he doesnt deliver for Ulster in Europe has come from.

Nevertheless I still don't think he is the answer for Ireland...neither is Ross Byrne. Not if we want to be contenders for big trophies

TomsOnTheRoof

There's a strong argument to be made for a Henderson and Beirne second row partnership, especially if Ryan continues his current form. That'd free up Doris and Coombes in the backrow and leave us with plenty of choice at openside.

TomsOnTheRoof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117776812#Comment_117776812

POM is certainly not a player who receives too much praise. In fact outside of Munster his merits are routinely questioned. This has been happening for years. I remember Alex Payne commenting on it to Trimble after the NZ game in 2018. Payne said he was delighted to see POM have such a strong game and said he felt as if O'Mahony was appreciated more outside of Ireland than within.

molloyjh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117777932#Comment_117777932

I think people are really overstating the POM criticism. I mean in 2018 the running joke was that we were to call him by his proper title (ya little b*****ks). Peter O'F-ing Mahony. And that was in a good way.

There have been times that his form has been questioned. And a lot of the time that has been justified. In numerous inter-pro games against Leinster he was found wanting for example. His form did dip considerably for a while after the peak of 2018. He wasn't alone there and wasn't the only one being called out for it either.

More recently his form has improved and the criticism has largely faded. A few people have been advocating others ahead of him. But often that's because a new, young, shiny thing like Coombes has come through and people are looking to find a place for them. The older guy losing out is hardly unusual in that instance.

TomsOnTheRoof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778024#Comment_117778024

I'm not sure I agree. O'Mahony has been held to higher standards than most. In fact I'd argue that he is one of those players who seems to engender an almost vitriolic dislike in the supporters of other provinces. I mean when you consider that Payne commented on it to Trimble then there must be some basis for the assertion. Also, a fairly well known blog (or at least well known in Irish rugby circles) characterised him as little more than a scowling ruck inspector. That characterisation has taken on a life of its own amongst certain subsets of Irish supporters.

His form wasn't great following the World Cup but that could be said for the majority of players outside of Porter and Stander. Nevertheless if you review the comments here and elsewhere from that time you'll see that he comes in for much more vocal criticism than most. In fact I'd argue that the only other player to have received the same level of open disdain from Irish fans in that time is Stockdale (possibly Lowe too).

Also, on him being less effective against Leinster: I think that's an unfair metric to measure his ability. Munster have routinely lost to Leinster since the semi in 09. In that time there haven't been many instances where Munster players have covered themselves in glory against Leinster. It's difficult when everything is falling to **** around you. The only teams who have consistently competed with Leinster over the course of the last decade are Sarries and Toulon. Using the same logic, the likes of Dowling should have been starting over Horgan or Hickie in the period previous to Leinster's ascendancy.

Finally, I agree with your assertion that the appearance of Coombes and other has led to supporters calling time on O'Mahony's International ambitions. However I'd argue that those ambitions have been questioned time and again over his career despite him being a top back rower. Indeed I'd put forward Payne's comment to Trimble and the opinions of the previously mentioned blog as evidence of that.

Podge_irl

POM is inconsistent, which allows pretty much everyone to be right if they want to focus on certain games. He can have games like the NZ match and he can have games where it seems like he may as well not have bothered lining out.

Not sure there is a "strong argument" for Henderson/Beirne. Not a lot of coaches have selected Beirne in the row and there is a reason for that.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778024#Comment_117778024

I dunno, Molloy. He’s probably been the single most divisive player on here for a number of years.

He’s received justified criticism but he’s also received unjustified criticism, imo. For example, iirc there were a number of calls for him to be dropped from the Ireland squad entirely after the ANC, even tho he had been one of our better players. And that’s not to mention the stuff that’s gone beyond criticism to abuse, the likes of which James Lowe copped during the 6 Nations.

(Top marks for the Father Ted reference tho!)

AdamD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117778271#Comment_117778271

If anything POM seems to get held to lower standards than anyone else. The guy was plucking MOTM awards out of his arse because he looks passionate, rather than actually being the MOTM.