Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Richie_Rich89

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Yeah, South Africa also reverse the numbers of their flankers.
I wonder what the background is to that, maybe rebelling against the anglophone teams?

The lock numbering isn't the same deal as with their flankers, I don't think. 4 is usually the th lock around the world, I think? That was always my perception anyway, until Schmidt introduced the th lock at 5 thing. Certainly, I was used to the primary lineout jumper (who is more often the loosehead lock) wearing 5.

I don't really know about the origins of the blindside wearing 7 in South Africa.

Jump_In_Jack

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

The lock numbering isn't the same deal as with their flankers, I don't think. 4 is usually the th lock around the world, I think? That was always my perception anyway, until Schmidt introduced the th lock at 5 thing. Certainly, I was used to the primary lineout jumper (who is more often the loosehead lock) wearing 5.

I don't really know about the origins of the blindside wearing 7 in South Africa.

Going off on a tangent, but I can't find anywhere a reference other than that 5 is tightside lock.
Paul O'Connell packed down on the tightside and wore 5 for example.

Richie_Rich89

TRC10 wrote: »

And they were both LH locks no?

Were Ali Williams and Matfield not the TH locks for their respective teams?

I'm not an expert on forwards so I could be talking ****e.

Thorn was definitely a tighthead lock.

I'm looking for pictures of Botha and Matfield packing down now, but the former is your quintessential right side lock.

Richie_Rich89

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Going off on a tangent, but I can't find anywhere a reference other than that 5 is tightside lock.
Paul O'Connell packed down on the tightside and wore 5 for example.

That was again under Schmidt, once he introduced th lock at 5 to Ireland, no?

I think O'Callaghan packed down behind the tighthead wearing 4 when it was him and O'Connell.

It was 4. POC, 5. MOK when O'Connell and O'Kelly were playing together, but I don't know how they packed down in the scrum.

Richie_Rich89

O'Kelly seems to be behind the th and wearing 5 in Paris in 2000, anyway.

sprucemoose

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It was 4. POC, 5. MOK when O'Connell and O'Kelly were playing together

other way round

Richie_Rich89

sprucemoose wrote: »

other way round

Fair enough. It seems to be as you say in 2004 against England and 2006 against the Pacific Islands anyway.

sprucemoose

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Fair enough. It seems to be as you say in 2004 against England and 2006 against the Pacific Islands anyway.

think the only times o connell wore 4 in a test was for the lions in 2005, in the first and second tests (dunno why he did in the second since he was with o callaghan). MOK wore 5 up until o connell came into the team

OneLungDavy

O'Callaghan was always a TH lock and wore 4, POC wore 5.

See here as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55xPjGFWv9o

Richie_Rich89

I think pre-Schmidt the convention in Ireland as regards numbering might have been more based on the lineout than on the scrum. Maybe the go-to guy in the middle of the lineout wore 5.

Who was the middle lineout jumper when it was an O'Kelly/O'Connell pairing?

salmocab

Not that I’ve ever invested much thought in it but I always had it as 4&5 left and right. However I’d fail to see why anyone could have an opinion on it mattering except maybe a player that had a superstition on wearing a particular one.

Jump_In_Jack

OneLungDavy wrote: »

O'Callaghan was always a TH lock and wore 4, POC wore 5.

See here as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55xPjGFWv9o

O’Callaghan wore 4 and O’Connell 5,
But if you check back,
In 2007 RWC O’Connell was tight-side, O’Callaghan was loose-side,
But in 2011 they swapped.
So not consistent, maybe Richie was right about calling the lineout is more important.
Just recently against England in the 6N Henderson wore 4 playing tight-side and Beirne wore 5. Not sure who ran the lineout though.

Paul Smeenus

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

O’Callaghan wore 4 and O’Connell 5,
But if you check back,
In 2007 RWC O’Connell was tight-side, O’Callaghan was loose-side,
But in 2011 they swapped.
So not consistent, maybe Richie was right about calling the lineout is more important.
Just recently against England in the 6N Henderson wore 4 playing tight-side and Beirne wore 5. Not sure who ran the lineout though.

Hendo.

I'd always thought 4 was LH and 5 was TH. Hunh.

Bazzo

Quinn Roux has also worn 4 for Ireland while packing down at tighthead lock.

nerd69

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Not really, because he'd still be playing for Ireland, getting used to the systems and gelling with international regulars.

To be fair some think starting international regulars vs the us is a waste so he may not

visatorro

Bazzo wrote:

Quinn Roux has also worn 4 for Ireland while packing down at tighthead lock.

Didn't Mike Ross reckon quinn roux was the best scrummaging lock he played with?

b.gud

visatorro wrote: »

Didn't Mike Ross reckon quinn roux was the best scrummaging lock he played with?

Not sure if he said he was the best but definitely full of praise for him

https://twitter.com/MikeRoss03/status/1327336602734129152?s=19

Neil3030

I think he mentions Brad Thorn in his book as the best he ever played with...

sydthebeat

and we're back !!!

bilston

I've been waiting on this for a few days...

So a good day's work for the young lads on Saturday. Kelleher, O'Toole, Baird, Coombes, Casey, Hume and Baloucoune alI went really well, and I also thought Harry Byrne showed his talent when he came on, yes he made a couple of mistakes, but he looks like he has a quality that none of our other young 10s have...time on the ball.

The usual health warnings apply regarding the opposition, but I've seen more experienced Ireland teams huff and puff their way to a 30 point win over similar opposition in the past.

Kelleher and Coombes look set to start come November and Baloucoune won't be far away if he has a good start to the season with Ulster, but with the addition of Zebo, there are back three options available. Ryan Baird should be in the 23.

James Hume is an interesting one, obviously he will have his work cut out taking Ringrose's place anytime soon but, but he could quickly become his main back up, I really enjoyed his performance on Saturday. As for Byrne, get him more game time, as I said above he made one or two mistakes on Saturday, the more he plays the more he will cut that out. Regulars will know I'm not a Leinster fan, but I'd be starting him as much as possible next season in matches of consequence.

Clegg

The game itself was a mess.The opposition were dreadful and we couldn't help but score even when we made mistakes in attack.

It was encouraging to see us offloading so frequently and finding recipients to them running it open space. I just wonder if we'd take so many risks against the better sides? We dominated contact to such a degree that we could afford to throw offloads because we knew we'd eventually get it back without conceding.

Of the debutants/new starters Coombes did well as a link man and I thought Hume had a decent game as well. Timoney wasn't as prominent however. Don't think he'll get many more chances really. Byrne came on and did some nice things. Cross field kicks, flat skip passes to players into space etc. But by then the US were so defeated that it's hard to gauge individual performances. He's worth another look in November though.

Poor Doris will take a while to live down all those dropped offloads. He had a strong game but his hands let him down a few times. Which is unfortunate as his handling is one of the best in the country amongst forwards usually.

Richie_Rich89

Has the layout of the site changed? There's something a bit different about it.

Tomtom364

Without dragging back up an argument, thinking back to the back and forth people had here about Coombes vs Doris, in particular about Coombes handling.

I had a bit of a smirk at the weekend with Coombes was acting as a link man slinging out passes and offloads while Doris was firing offloads 20 yards forward and having the ball dislodged in contact. Thought that would ruffle a few feathers 😂

TomsOnTheRoof

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117613465#Comment_117613465

Doris had a similar issue in the Japan game.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Ts7qHPJ.gif[/img]

TRC10

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117613465#Comment_117613465

Coombes' distribution was excellent. One great backhanded offload to Ryan early on (who proceeded to throw the ball away). And a couple of lovely "draw and gives" to put Conway away.

He was used as a link man in the wide channels a lot, similar to how Farrell has used POM or Conan in the past, it's not a role I've seen him perform for Munster, he's mainly used as a carrier in and around the rucks. But he really excelled out wide. And he carried very well as he always does.

Doris' handling was absolutely horrific, which is very uncharacteristic for him but he certainly didn't cover himself in glory.

It's food for thought anyway. That back 5 of the scrum is going to be fascinating come November. Does Beirne come into the back row? Or does Ryan lose his place and Beirne play in the 2nd row? Who plays 8, Doris, Coombes or Conan? Who plays 7, POM, VDF or Connors?

Clegg

Conan is the incumbent right now and if he gets into the Lions test side I can't see how he won't get starts at 8 for Leinster or Ireland.

I think VDF has cemented his place as our starting openside for the November series at least. He's stepped up a level in his game since last year. Six is a crap shoot where about 5 players could feasibly start. Throw in Doris and Coombes there too since Conan might have the 8 jersey locked down.

TRC10

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117614079#Comment_117614079

I'm not sure if that's true re: VDF.

He's been in great form, but we shouldn't forget how good Connors was before he got injured. He was phenomenal in Murrayfield in March. And I think he probably has more strings to his bow than VDF.

O'Mahony could easily start at 7 too and he was probably our best player v Japan.

While VDF's form has been exceptional, I wouldn't say he has the 7 shirt "nailed down" at all.

No.8 is probably Conan's to lose, which really opens up the lock/6 discussion, which is between Doris, Coombes and Ryan.

aloooof

This got missed with the downtime on here, but credit to Farrell with the 8 new caps, putting lie to some of the "conservative Farrell" suggestions following the Japan selection.