Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

This reasoning doesn't make much sense to me.

Stephen Ferris, Jerome Kaino, Jerry Collins, Schalk Burger.

All incredibly powerful, all 6s.

Coombes could be an absolute monster at 6. Breakdown, lineout, carrying, all huge strengths.

But I fear by playing him at 8, we run into the same issue we had with Stander. Now I'm not saying Coombes can't offload and has no footwork or capacity to attack space, but they aren't his prime strengths.

My main point is, with the direction Ireland are looking to move their game, I think Ireland would be best to utilise a power player like Coombes at 6, with a Doris/Timoney/Conan type player at 8.

I'd love to see a backrow next week of...
6-Coombes
7-VDF
8-Doris

TRC10 wrote: »

But for me, he's quick, but I don't see the mobility, footwork and offloading ability that an 8 would ideally have.

Sorry bud, but you literally know nothing about Coombes. He's been knocking over players like skittles off the base of the scrum. He's the type of player Leinster are missing when it comes to playing the bigger teams as we've witnessed again this season.

Dorris is a very good player, but the best 8s in rugby are the ones that punch holes. If you want a linkman with "a step" you're probably thinking of a openside. And maybe that's where you see Dorris then.

errlloyd

I have never understood peoples fascination with whether a player plays 6 or 8. The amount of impacts a player has from the scrum compared to around the park in general is minimal. In a good game we'll have fewer that 10 attacking scrums, only 6 of them will complete, and only 3 of them will involve the number 8 picking and going from the base.

It doesn't matter. And the defensive side of it is probably more important if it does.

shootermacg

I'll just leave this here:

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

Sorry bud, but you literally know nothing about Coombes. He's been knocking over players like skittles off the base of the scrum. He's the type of player Leinster are missing when it comes to playing the bigger teams as we've witnessed again this season.

Dorris is a very good player, but the best 8s in rugby are the ones that punch holes. If you want a linkman with "a step" you're probably thinking of a openside. And maybe that's where you see Dorris then.

I think it's very strange that people are getting so defensive about this, to the point where they get very snappy and resort to making condescending remarks. Then they make it provincial and start making comments about what Leinster are supposedly missing (which has nothing to do with the discussion)

I sense a serious inferiority complex, when all I did was suggest where a brilliant talent's abilities might be best utilised. I don't know how that's upset people.

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

I'll just leave this here:

Phenomenal player

Nobody is debating that.

I think his position will be 6 at international level.

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

Phenomenal player

Nobody is debating that.

I think his position will be 6 at international level.

Maybe you're right, Billy Vunipola really missed a trick. He definitely should have been a 6, he has all of your attributes.

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

Maybe you're right, Billy Vunipola really missed a trick. He definitely should have been a 6, he has all of your attributes.

https://youtu.be/IBG7XZXeHLA

30 seconds in.

I've yet to see Coombes do stuff like this

Vunipola is so much more than a bulldozer

Former Former Former

Jesus lads.

Let's wait and see if these guys are actually good enough to play test level. Then let's see if the 6 and 8 we have on Lions duty might want their jerseys back after the summer.

THEN we can start glassing each other over who should play 8.

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/IBG7XZXeHLA

30 seconds in.

I've yet to see Coombes do stuff like this

Vunipola is so much more than a bulldozer

I even supplied a video for you to watch. What is wrong with you?

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

I even supplied a video for you to watch. What is wrong with you?

I've watched the video and probably every minute he's played this season.

shootermacg

TRC10 wrote: »

I've watched the video and probably every minute he's played this season.

Sorry but it's pointless making a case for some people.

TRC10

shootermacg wrote: »

I even supplied a video for you to watch. What is wrong with you?

shootermacg wrote: »

Sorry but it's pointless making a case for some people.

Your "case" is sending 4 minute highlight reels and making condescending personal jibes because someone dared have a differing opinion about a brilliant players best position.

irishbucsfan

It really doesn't matter whether he plays 6 or 8. It's relevant for a few scrums a game and then totally irrelevant for the rest of the game.

phily2002

shootermacg wrote: »

Sorry bud, but you literally know nothing about Coombes. He's been knocking over players like skittles off the base of the scrum. He's the type of player Leinster are missing when it comes to playing the bigger teams as we've witnessed again this season.

Dorris is a very good player, but the best 8s in rugby are the ones that punch holes. If you want a linkman with "a step" you're probably thinking of a openside. And maybe that's where you see Dorris then.

Coombes was quality this year but the pro final against Leinster he missed 5 tackles and Toulouse he missed 4. Great going forward but needs to improve his defence.
Irelands greatest 8 was Heaslip who wasn't a punch hole type 8.
If Coombes keeps going the way he's going he'll see a lot of time in green, if it's at 6 or 8 it doesn't really matter,

TRC10

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It really doesn't matter whether he plays 6 or 8. It's relevant for a few scrums a game and then totally irrelevant for the rest of the game.

For the balance of the back row, it does matter.

If he plays 8 then you loose the footballing and link play of Conan or Doris, but you gain more power therefore you need more mobility from your flankers.

If he plays 6 it allows Doris or Conan to operate as the "wide forward" that Farrell likes to use.

It's more about personnel than what numbers they wear.

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

For the balance of the back row, it does matter.

If he plays 8 then you loose the footballing and link play of Conan or Doris, but you gain more power therefore you need more mobility from your flankers.

If he plays 6 it allows Doris or Conan to operate as the "wide forward" that Farrell likes to use.

It's more about personnel than what numbers they wear.

Doris could play 6 and Coombes 8. Or vice versa. I've really no idea why this has become such a hot topic. Or why some have gotten so defensive about it.

Clegg

I don't think the role of no 8 has primarily been about punching holes in defence for quite a while now. Coaches seem to place more value in intelligent running and good hands these days.

Not saying Coombes doesn't have that, but rather the likes of Billy Vunipola are actually a rarity at the top level. Look at some of the best 8's over the last 10/15 years. Heaslip, Parisse, Read, Faletau, Harinordoquy etc. All good carriers, but none of them were wrecking balls.

shootermacg

Clegg wrote: »

I don't think the role of no 8 has primarily been about punching holes in defence for quite a while now. Coaches seem to place more value in intelligent running and good hands these days.

Not saying Coombes doesn't have that, but rather the likes of Billy Vunipola are actually a rarity at the top level. Look at some of the best 8's over the last 10/15 years. Heaslip, Parisse, Read, Faletau, Harinordoquy etc. All good carriers, but none of them were wrecking balls.

Power players are the most in demand players. If a team isn't punching holes, it's because they don't have the players to do it.
Also I remember a lot of chat around Heaslip at 8, he was terrible off the base of the scrum in his later years and a lot of people wanted him at 6 because of it.

theVersatile

Forgot to quote but this is in response to Molloy on "why are people getting so defensive"

The problem isn't the fact he said Coombes should be a six - it's that his critique of him was fundamentally wrong. Footwork into contact is one of Coombes strengths, last week he literally side stepped somebody from five metres out on a pick and go. He's so much more than a CJ "running directly at the tackler's centre of mass" carrier. His link play and offloading has been exceptional this season too - I just think the poster took a very lazy approach to his opinion.

Again, no problem with the general idea of moving him to six, nor the idea we should see how he goes at test level first before crowning him the messiah (the calls from the opposite side to make him 8 for the next ten years are equally daft). Another poster above highlighted a valid criticism of his missed tackle count (assuming the stats are accurate) - which is fair - but I don't see how he can claim to have watched every minute Coombes has played and say he hasn't the ball handling ability or the mobility / footwork to potentially play 8 at the highest level.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

Forgot to quote but this is in response to Molloy on "why are people getting so defensive"

The problem isn't the fact he said Coombes should be a six - it's that his critique of him was fundamentally wrong. Footwork into contact is one of Coombes strengths, last week he literally side stepped somebody from five metres out on a pick and go. He's so much more than a CJ "running directly at the tackler's centre of mass" carrier. His link play and offloading has been exceptional this season too - I just think the poster took a very lazy approach to his opinion.

Again, no problem with the general idea of moving him to six, nor the idea we should see how he goes at test level first before crowning him the messiah (the calls from the opposite side to make him 8 for the next ten years are equally daft). Another poster above highlighted a valid criticism of his missed tackle count (assuming the stats are accurate) - which is fair - but I don't see how he can claim to have watched every minute Coombes has played and say he hasn't the ball handling ability or the mobility / footwork to potentially play 8 at the highest level.

I never said this. I have no doubt he could play 8 at the highest level.

All I said was, I think his best role could be as a Ferris/Kaino type enforcer at 6 with a more natural footballing 8 and I think that's where his long term future for Ireland will be, based on what I've seen from Farrell's play style and selections. That doesn't mean I don't think he could play the 8 role and do well

I think some people misinterpreted what I was saying as "Coombes is just a big donkey with no skills or footwork and can't play 8 at international level". That wasn't what I was saying at all.

theVersatile

Yeah in fairness you did clarify that afterwards, but it's easy to see how the misinterpretation was made when you take the original post at face value.

TRC10 wrote: »

But for me, he's quick, but I don't see the mobility, footwork and offloading ability that an 8 would ideally have.

Farrell has shown he's keen to move away from the one dimensional no.8 like Stander, and I'd have Coombes in that category too.

But anyways, moving on, Coombes could play loosehead lock and I think most people would just be delighted to see him in green regardless. The development of the back five over Autumn and into next year's 6N is going to be very interesting.

shootermacg

theVersatile wrote: »

Yeah in fairness you did clarify that afterwards, but it's easy to see how the misinterpretation was made when you take the original post at face value.



But anyways, moving on, Coombes could play loosehead lock and I think most people would just be delighted to see him in green regardless. The development of the back five over Autumn and into next year's 6N is going to be very interesting.

Think it's possible that Beirne will take the 6 shirt.

Richie_Rich89

TRC10 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/IBG7XZXeHLA

30 seconds in.

I've yet to see Coombes do stuff like this

Vunipola is so much more than a bulldozer

I actually seem to remember Coombes doing something very similar to that in one game.

I think it's a a bit strange to say Coombes doesn't have enough handling/footballing/awareness. These are strengths of his.

It would be like making the same claims about Conan because he likes running at the 10 off the base of scrums.

shootermacg

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I actually seem to remember Coombes doing something very similar to that in one game.

I think it's a a bit strange to say Coombes doesn't have enough handling/footballing/awareness. These are strengths of his.

It would be like making the same claims about Conan because he likes running at the 10 off the base of scrums.

yes:1;08 on the video I supplied.

Richie_Rich89

shootermacg wrote: »

yes:1;08 on the video I supplied.

Yeah, that's good skill. I think I'm thinking of a different one, though - from a scrum further out maybe where he passes it like Vunipola did when it would have been easy to put the head down and go himself.

Shaka Hislop

Stephen Ferris calling for Kendelen to be fast-tracked to the Irish senior side very quickly.

Clegg

Shaka Hislop wrote: »

Stephen Ferris calling for Kendelen to be fast-tracked to the Irish senior side very quickly.

I think he looks good, but maybe not to the level where he should be fast tracked. The forwards who've been brought in immediately from underage level have all been a level or two above in physicality and skill. Don't think Kendellan is quite there yet. Penny was tipped for fast tracking after an excellent U20 championship where Ireland won the Grand Slam. But he hasn't had a sniff despite impressing for Leinster.

ineedeuro

Clegg wrote: »

I think he looks good, but maybe not to the level where he should be fast tracked. The forwards who've been brought in immediately from underage level have all been a level of two above in physicality and skill. Don't think Kendellan is quite there yet. Penny was tipped for fast tracking after an excellent U20 championship where Ireland won the Grand Slam. But he hasn't had a sniff despite impressing for Leinster.

Penny is still 21 and only turning 22 in September. A lot of Pro 14 games but none in Europe. Hopefully the SA can provide better challenge next season so can see how far he has progressed

irishbucsfan

TRC10 wrote: »

For the balance of the back row, it does matter.

If he plays 8 then you loose the footballing and link play of Conan or Doris, but you gain more power therefore you need more mobility from your flankers.

If he plays 6 it allows Doris or Conan to operate as the "wide forward" that Farrell likes to use.

It's more about personnel than what numbers they wear.

You only lose them if you don’t pick them in the back row. And if Coombes is at 8 then you pick anyone at 6 who does that for you.

It’s a silly discussion. Who is the theoretical opposition? What are you even trying to balance for?

Selection is made for a match, and without that context these fantasy selection discussions just become pointless.

shootermacg

Shaka Hislop wrote: »

Stephen Ferris calling for Kendelen to be fast-tracked to the Irish senior side very quickly.

Kendelen is small, about 6 foot, if the stats are to be believed. Penny is smaller?