Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

salmocab · 17-04-2024 09:03AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029148#Comment_122029148

The second row one is even odder looking when one of the two starters isn’t one of the 3 on a CC

salmocab · 17-04-2024 09:05AM

looking at the list realistically who else would deserve one now? Probably a bit early for Crowley and Joe Mc.
Lowe and Hansen maybe?

Clegg · 17-04-2024 09:08AM

Hansen definitely. He's so important to how Ireland wants to attack. Nash played well during the Six Nations. But was a step or two down from Mack.

Lowe deserves one as well, but he's probably too old now. Especially for an outside back.

Podge_irl · 17-04-2024 09:12AM

Yeah Hansen is a no brainer. Agree on Lowe being too old. Think it's bit early for Crowley but he'll get one anyway.

CONSI · 17-04-2024 09:15AM

Crowley deserves one, we have to get behind a new number 10 so a central contract is important for that.

irelandrover · 17-04-2024 09:15AM

If Mccarthy stays as the starting second row then at the next round I'd probably drop Ryan from his, as well as Henshaw, Henderson, and Aki.

Hansen and maybe Lowe to get a central contract.

To be honest i think the case for central contracts is getting less now that there isn't games during the international windows.

Quin_Dub · 17-04-2024 09:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029187#Comment_122029187

There are always going to be those anomalies with this system.

McCarthy has just come on the scene and has very recently usurped Henderson/Ryan in the pecking order and if that remains the case he'll probably take Hendersons/Ryans contract when it comes up for renewal.

When one "nailed on" starter retires there isn't always an immediate person that becomes equally "nailed on".

Right now , Crowley looks like the long term replacement for Sexton but you wouldn't be giving him a central contract just yet. All those on Central contracts have been established regular starters for Ireland for 3+ years before that got that contract.

As I understand it the primary difference (in terms of value) between an international on a central contract and one on a provincial contract is that match fees are guaranteed.

So for example - using random figures ,a Provincial International has a contract for €150k/year and if they are involved in all the Ireland match day squads for a season , they get an additional €50k for those involvements.

The Central contract player just has a flat contract of €200k regardless of their level of involvement , although the assumption is that they would be playing all the games.

Maybe the IRFU could not pay the core contract value any more and just guarantee the "match fee" element for more players for longer.

So instead of paying the full value for ~13 players they could guarantee the match fee element for 25/30 players which would cover a large chunk of the guys regularly involved in teams and squads.

It's all their money anyway , it's just a change in how the account for it and report it.

ionadnapóca · 17-04-2024 09:31AM

Each contract is underpinned by the union on a scaled payment structure of €50,000, €90,000 or €110,000, and is individually supplemented by the provinces as they see fit or can afford.

I didn't know the extent of this IRFU payment structure for Provincial contracts. I'm assuming most of the contracts for the Provincial players in and around the national Squad are financed at this €90,000 or €110,000 scale.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2022/05/11/hansen-signs-new-long-term-deal-with-connacht/

Based on above (and I'm assuming because it was an IRFU article) Hansen signed a new contract in 2022 (expiring 2025) with €110,000 per season from the IRFU.

Because he's now a mainstay in the starting XV he'll go onto a central contract at the end of 2025.

sydthebeat · 17-04-2024 09:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029297#Comment_122029297

its not a maximum figure, its a subsidy per contract.

so far example with hansen, there is no indication that his contract IS 110k. Its very very likely that Connacht are topping up his contract on top of the 110k.

as to what the final figure is, we dont know, nor should we know.

for example, at leinster James Lowe is absolutely on more than 110K

Clo-Clo · 17-04-2024 09:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029317#Comment_122029317

I think it was mentioned before Lowe was on 300k

Podge_irl · 17-04-2024 09:58AM

Lots of numbers get "mentioned" though! :)

Though it does seem about right I guess

awec · 17-04-2024 11:18AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029196#Comment_122029196

McCarthy will absolutely get one and Henderson will definitely not get another one.

Henderson's deal is up in 2025 but I don't think McCarthy will have to wait until then, I suspect the IRFU will bump his contract soon enough.

ionadnapóca · 17-04-2024 11:57AM

Interestingly, the IRFU are undertaking a review of their contractual system, which will be completed before Humphreys takes over from Nucifora.

I'm assuming Humphreys is having some input and/or will have some good ideas of his own.

The only scope for practical change that I can see is an increase within this IRFU "scaled payment structure" ( €50,000, €90,000 or €110,000) for provinces that meet a certain criteria.

e.g. Connacht. How do the IRFU determine the extent of financial support for the Contracts in a Province?

Central Contract: 1. Bundee Aki (XV expires 2025)

Tier 1 Contract (up tp €110k from IRFU): 1. Hansen (XV 2025), 2. Bealham ( XXIII 2025)

Tier 2 Contract (up to €90k from IRFU): 1. Prendergast (Squad 2025), 2. Carty (2025), 3. Blade (Squad 2026) 4. Butler (2024) 5. Joyce (2025?) 6. JJ Hanrahan (2025?)

NIQ Contract: 1. Cordero, 2. Hurley-Langton, 3. Porch (2025, IQ in 2024). IRFU Financial contribution = €X Amount(€0?)

Tier 3 Contract (up to €50k from IRFU): The 49 reaming players in squad and academy.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/10/31/bealham-commits-to-connacht-with-two-year-contract-extension/

CEO: Ruane - Performance Grade B1. PLUS IRFU Didn't have to remove him - TICK

Head Coach: Wilkins (2027) - Performance Grade D1. PLUS IRFU Didn't have to remove him - TICK

Team Performance Grade - C3

Financial Performance Grade - C1

Stadium Grade: Sportsground. Rented from Galway Agricultural and Sports Society. Grade D3

Stadium and Facilities Redevelopment: Cost - €40m Plus(!) with Govt Grant of €20m. Completed for start of 2026/27. IRFU Financial Support = €0(?)

IRFU ALGORITHIM: = €X* million for 24/25 Contracts.

*Heavily weighted on Irish team representation because that is THE cash cow.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/11/24/grand-slam-success-brings-a-more-positive-impact-to-irfu-accounts/

The benefits of having ALL of the Irish players playing in Ireland are Massive.

No system is perfect, but its a bloody good system.

If people have better idea's, fair play, and why do you think the IRFU would not implement them?

The simple cold hard truth is some provinces are underperforming. e.g. Ulster - From the top to the bottom. I don't want to pick on Ulster but its a pertinent example. The IRFU are not going to give them more cash because they haven't seen a return on investment.

Paul Smeenus · 17-04-2024 12:01PM

So how do the IRFU improve what's coming out of Ulster? Shout at them louder?

ionadnapóca · 17-04-2024 12:07PM

I mean you can take the hump or you can make a suggestion yourself. I don't know. What do you think?

They sent Richie Murphy up…

17-04-2024 12:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029922#Comment_122029922

Plenty want the system to stay as it is because it benefits their team

ionadnapóca · 17-04-2024 12:12PM

I don't buy that. My team is Ireland. The IRFU's team is Ireland.

17-04-2024 12:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029946#Comment_122029946

Iv yet to see any non leinster fan say this systems not broken. Perhaps i can be proven wrong but those who benefit from a broken system are more likely to defend it.

Paul Smeenus · 17-04-2024 12:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029922#Comment_122029922

I have.

Make each province pay a small part of each central contract and use the centrally saved money to bolster the Ulster, Connacht and Munster academies, and talent identification systems. Money goes straight into that, can't be spent on NIQs, contracts or anything else.

Allow provinces other than Munster to host money-spinning games against invited international sides.

Clo-Clo · 17-04-2024 01:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030079#Comment_122030079

Do the IRFU not already fund or part fund the academies for the provinces? something was mentioned on a podcast before about the IRFU over the academies. I can't remember what it was before

But lets say they offer more money into the academies, what would you change?

Paul Smeenus · 17-04-2024 01:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030207#Comment_122030207

I imagine if you talk to any of the academies, they'd have pretty urgent ideas how money could be used to improve what's happening there.

Certainly, in Ulster, they could do with another talent identification officer - someone pointed more towards the clubs than schools. Maybe another Academy place or two? Maybe more/better coaches? More money for the underage pathway? Mayeb a review of the systems with an eye to improving it?

If the point is that we're not bringing enough players through (with which I agree 100%), lets remedy it.

fitzgea1 · 17-04-2024 01:16PM

As a Munster fan, I'd love to see us invest in our academy rather than spending money on expensive NIQs. Look at what proper investment in S&C and facilities done for the Limerick hurlers. I'm not saying it'll definitely work but it would be worth trying I think. I don't think revising how central contracts are distributed is gonna close the gap to Leinster, we need a better feeder system.

aloooof · 17-04-2024 01:16PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029946#Comment_122029946

The IRFU's remit is broader than just the Ireland team.

phog · 17-04-2024 01:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030316#Comment_122030316

Munster are investing S&C and centres of excellence to help in better feeder systems, IRFU have allowed Munster to turn some of their operational costs for this into the long term loan.

Of course, the provinces need more help with this. None would have anything like the money JP pours into Limerick. He's twice now given €1m to each county so you can only imagine what he's pumping into Limerick.

fitzgea1 · 17-04-2024 01:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030432#Comment_122030432

That's good to know. Would be good if there was some way that province's supporters could contribute to academy funding. I think there'd be an appetite for that. Some kind of fund where people could put e5 a month or something and know that it's going straight into improving the academy.

ionadnapóca · 17-04-2024 01:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030079#Comment_122030079

ok.

What's a small amount? €50k each? Leinster will have 10 players on a central contract = €500k.

That €500k of "centrally saved money to bolster the Ulster, Connacht and Munster academies, and talent identification systems"

Now to my mind you have now created an unfair system. Each of those players is a regular Starter for Ireland. You are effectively penalising Leinster for producing each and every one of those players. You are also penalising that team in the hope that more players will be produced in the other provinces.

That's some leap when you consider that all of those provincial academy's combined have contributed 2 players (POM & Crowley) to the current starting XV.

Thats a €500k penalty every season for Leinster who also have to pay for all the other Leinster players that played for Ireland this season: Lowe, Baird, McCarthy, Kelleher, Conan, Healy, Frawley, Harry Byrne, Larmour and Ross Byrne.

To pick a round figures of €300k per season for each of those 10 players = €3million per season.

That's not including JOB, Connors, McGrath and Deegan and Ruddock who have also all been capped. €200k = €1m per season

I said it before and ill say it again. The current system is not perfect. But its bloody good. It certainly isn't broken

I dont agree with the premise of Thornleys article that the system is purposely loaded to favour Leinster. Not at all. That type of shite only breeeds resentment. The simple facts are that the best players are playing for Leinster.

Just as they were playing for Munster in 2001.

Clo-Clo · 17-04-2024 01:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030291#Comment_122030291

I do agree with coach's, maybe a pathway for explayers into coaching via the academies.

I think we do have to agree Ireland at the moment is probably at the most successful period ever, but we can't stay still. We need to continue to improve.

The question then is what do you do with the current players if they get more from the academy, you suddenly run into a backlog, so do the IRFU need another province. England and France have multiple clubs/squad to spread players around, Ireland is limited to 4.

Do we align with a Pro D2 club to allow players to move over to get time? or align with clubs in AUs?

aloooof · 17-04-2024 01:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030508#Comment_122030508

I dont agree with the premise of Thornleys article that the system is purposely loaded to favour Leinster. Not at all. That type of shite only breeeds resentment.

I think that's unfair on Thornley tbh.

His point wasn't that things were loaded to favour Leinster on purpose. But that they do favour Leinster.

That doesn't mean it's by design. But the absolutely do.

ionadnapóca · 17-04-2024 02:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030318#Comment_122030318

Not sure if you are taking a pot shot or not. Because I think most of here would know that.

IRFU deficit of just under €1 million in their annual accounts up to 31st July 2023

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/11/24/grand-slam-success-brings-a-more-positive-impact-to-irfu-accounts/

“Our deficit for 2023/24 is likely to be well in excess of this €10 million,” admitted Potts. “However, we do expect a return to close to break even in 2024/25, the following year, and at no stage in the next 10 years are we forecasting that the IRFU will go into debt." - Kevin Potts

Is that €10m a typo? Is it not €1m deficit?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/11/25/irfu-chief-kevin-potts-insists-irish-rugby-in-good-financial-state-after-10m-world-cup-costs/

There seems to be a traine of thought that the IRFU have this vast amount of money that they are funneling into Leinster in order to keep the other provinces down. That is madness. The IRFU need all the Provinces to contribute. It's just not happening.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030549#Comment_122030549

You're right I'm prob been a bit harsh.

But I think with the headline (editor) and lines like this it will stoke opinion against Leinste

"Yet there’s also no doubt that the union’s system both rewards and favours Leinster to an increasing degree."

"Leinster will thus not have to pay one cent toward the salaries of 10 frontline international players, whereas the other provinces will have a combined three who fall into this category, and will therefore have to at least partly fund the contracts of nine more players on their rosters"

"But this is a classic case of the rich getting richer and the irritation for the other provinces is that the socio-economic and geographical advantages that Leinster enjoy are, as they see it, compounded by the IRFU’s contractual system."

irelandrover · 17-04-2024 02:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122030508#Comment_122030508

Why should leinster pay nothing towards their players? You arent penalising Leinster for asking them to pay towards their players. Andrew porter will play more for Leinster in a season than he will ply for Ireland in general. Asking them to contribute to his wages seems reasonable to me.

Again I'd probably scrap the central contracts system. It made sense when there was club games during international windows but that no longer applies. Replace it with a payment towards the provinces when their players are selected for Ireland.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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