Why are so many people still going to work

_Kaiser_

cdeb wrote: »

I'm concerned now you're one of these people who'll bluster angrily in lieu of making a point while ignoring any points other people make. So if your next reply is as silly as your other ones, I'll call that a wrap on a discussion which is really just you being angry and throwing out insults to mask the fact you can't coherently make your point

As an observer, I don't see any "anger" in his posts.

I do see personal digs, insults, and other attempts to deflect and derail the thread by goading him into such a response though.

It doesn't say much for your own argument if that's what you have to rely on, but it's a very common tactic in such scenarios I'll grant you.

AssetBacked2

cdeb wrote: »

Oh dear.

The official HSE figures are 2000. If you want to argue they're wrong, the burden is on you, not me.

I've already suggested underlying health conditions include asthma, diabetes and obesity, which takes in 50% of the country. Why are you so keen to ignore these deaths?

And I've already said that the death rates have to be viewed in the light of the extraordinary measures being taken to reduce the death rates.

That we have a vaccine for the flu and not for covid is exactly why we can't compare the two. Because you can prevent one but not the other.

I'm concerned now you're one of these people who'll bluster angrily in lieu of making a point while ignoring any points other people make. So if your next reply is as silly as your other ones, I'll call that a wrap on a discussion which is really just you being angry and throwing out insults to mask the fact you can't coherently make your point

Thanks Kaiser.

One point in response as I won't get goaded;

I am not disputing the death numbers. In fact I am accepting them. It's the cases which I'm saying can be taken to be under actual infections.

Re deaths being counted with covid, see below link to letter from HSE on how to notify deaths.

Note: how deaths not even caused by covid and not even actually confirmed can be included. Nonetheless, as above, 390 people under the age of 85 dying with covid in 8 months is objectively low.

https://assets.gov.ie/83174/b835b198-1b21-4150-86e0-ea0ddfa9fe7a.pdf

cdeb

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

As an observer, I don't see any "anger" in his posts.

Really?

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

The mind boggles with this level of ignorance.

Fairly clear-cut. Especially when it turns out I was right to question the stat quoted, which had been badly phrased.

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

Go to bed cdeb.

Just dismissive in lieu of an actual point.

AssetBacked2 wrote: »

Okay, since you need this point clarified (I'm still waiting for you to counter the main point however so don't think you can duck away and I'll let you accept that under 65s should be overly concerned with covid)

Again, unnecessary aggression ("Since you need this point clarified") followed by "Don't think you can duck away" (from a point I didn't make?). And just to reiterate, this all arose when I simply (correctly) queried a stat posted.

Compare that with the civility of On The Beach's posts for example.

Then of course I raise two issues - the non-binary nature of covid outcomes which means just measuring deaths doesn't tell the full story, and the keenness to dismiss "underlying health conditions" which as far as I can see include asthma, diabetes and obesity, which together affect around half the population I think - and these two haven't been acknowledged.

Instead, we get an interesting letter from the HSE seven months ago linked - but is it still applicable today? Seven months is a long time in covid. I've shown that other European countries - with some restrictions - are experiencing death rates which, extrapolated to Ireland's population, would mean as many people dying of covid in a month as typically die of all causes in a month. Does the letter challenge any of that?

I'm happy to debate, but again, for me, Assetbacked2's overweening attitude needs to change.

On the Beach

cdeb wrote:

I suppose this invites three questions -

cdeb wrote:

1) Is Ireland's obesity rate significantly different to the rest of Europe? This -

cdeb wrote:

- would suggest not 2) We're coming into flu season in Ireland too 3) If Level 5 didn't "save the day", what has caused daily case numbers to drop by 70% since Level 5 came in?

What I said though was population density was a big factor along with how people live in other countries. Then I said you've other factors like obesity and such. I just pulled obesity as one off the top of my head as I know it can be disadvantageous with regard to covid so if the obesity rates are similar then fair enough. But what I'm alluding to is there are many factors e.g how many BAME people live in these countries compared to Ireland and there's many other factors I'm sure. Population density and how people live would definitely be a big one and would also counter your point about but it's flu season in Ireland too.

What I'm saying is, it's pointless to compare Ireland with other countries.

cdeb

I don't think it's pointless comparing Ireland with other countries.

Well, it is with some - I wouldn't compare to Djibouti or Nepal or a developing country like that. There's some very low rates in developing countries that I wouldn't remotely believe because they can't afford the same testing regime as in Europe.

But I don't think to compare within Europe is pointless, even if, as you say, it's not a direct comparison either. There does seem to be an increased death rate among BAME alright - though that may be balanced by what I would have thought was a younger age profile (with many relatively recent immigrants). Yes, population density is probably a factor too (though Croatia, very comparable to here, currently has a death rate 3 times as high as here). Cultural issues such as respecting lockdown help, of course - though that's what this thread is about!

So I certainly agree with you that there's a multitude of factors at play. Are the factors enough to result in a death rate up to five times as high in other European countries? I don't think they are. Level 5 has to have had a significant impact, and I think the chart of cases before and after Level 5 here shows that - that is a direct comparison in Ireland where the only thing that changed was the Level (and let's assume most people obeyed it)

All just my view, of course.

H8GHOTI

The message that people should work from home where possible “really hasn’t gotten through,” Dr Holohan told a press briefing.

“Car parks are full, canteens are full in workplace settings, people are really not listening to this message…Clearly many, many people who are in situations where they can work from home, are choosing not to do so,” he said.

Backs up what some were saying earlier in the thread.

I didn’t watch the press conference today but the tone of that sounds like he’s blaming employees rather than employers, when it’s a mix of both.

And why’s he banging on about it now? Was obvious in the first week. Also, lead by example Tony. No need for all them to be in sitting up there together in a room full of journalists.

Dr Ronan Glynn, deputy chief medical officer, added in some instances people were still turning up to work despite displaying Covid-19 symptoms.

Whatever about going in when feeling fine, turning up with symptoms, ffs. Hopefully just a couple of stupid people rather than people going in out of fear of losing their job.

Link:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/work-from-home-message-really-hasn-t-gotten-through-holohan-says-1.4413946?mode=amp

c68zapdsm5i1ru

It's definitely a mix of both. One of our senior managers is planning to bring staff in over the next week or so to stuff corporate Christmas cards into envelopes.:mad:

Hector Savage

Paxton Great Mirage wrote: »

I had a medical appointment this morning so was out on the road about 8ish. The traffic going in towards town was unbelievable. They couldn't possibly all have been essential workers. The last time we were asked to only go into work if our work was both essential and couldn't be done from home there was huge compliance. But now there seems to be huge ignoring of this restriction and apparently workplaces are one of the causes of figures starting to rise again.

I know yeah, how dare people go out and work for a living when there's no other option.
You might be able to work 100% from home (I can too luckily) but try and see this from other people's perspective.

Not everyone wants to hide under their beds for the next 150 billion years...

H8GHOTI

Hector Savage wrote: »

I know yeah, how dare people go out and work for a living when there's no other option.
You might be able to work 100% from home (I can too luckily) but try and see this from other people's perspective.

Not everyone wants to hide under their beds for the next 150 billion years...

?

There is another option for many, that’s the point.
I didn’t see anyone saying healthcare or supermarket workers etc shouldn’t be going to work.
There are people working in offices that are able to WFH but are not.

Hector Savage

H8GHOTI wrote: »

?

There is another option for many, that’s the point.
I didn’t see anyone saying healthcare or supermarket workers etc shouldn’t be going to work.
There are people working in offices that are able to WFH but are not.

Dunno maybe for their sanity ?
I am able to return to the office from next week, I will once/twice a week for some sort of normality, few people in the office, plenty of space ... won't be getting close to colleagues or going for lunch with them - but we need to GET ON WITH IT !!!


Endemic!!



With an IFR slightly worse than flu .

bladespin

H8GHOTI wrote: »

There are people working in offices that are able to WFH but are not.

A lot of people seem to underestimate what goes on in offices, there's often a need to be there even for such mundane thins such as collecting and opening the post (yes, it still exists) and hand's on checks: never trust your CRM software completely, guarantee that one crucial part will be missing (just a personal example ) We are becoming more automated but unless you're part of a huge company it's not infallible (even then).

H8GHOTI

bladespin wrote: »

A lot of people seem to underestimate what goes on in offices, there's often a need to be there even for such mundane thins such as collecting and opening the post (yes, it still exists) and hand's on checks: never trust your CRM software completely, guarantee that one crucial part will be missing (just a personal example ) We are becoming more automated but unless you're part of a huge company it's not infallible (even then).

Sure, but that being true doesn’t make what I said false.

Some people will need to go in. Some people are being forced to go in. Some people prefer to go in. For their sanity, to get a break from the wife & kids, for whatever reason.

I’m not debating the rights & wrongs of people going to offices. All I’m saying is there are people going in that could WFH. There are many ignoring the restrictions & compliance is worse than it was the first time. Full stop.

bladespin

H8GHOTI wrote: »

Sure, but that being true doesn’t make what I said false.

I didn't suggest it did???

H8GHOTI

bladespin wrote: »

I didn't suggest it did???

Then I’m not sure why you quoted me.
Got the impression you were contradicting what I said.

bladespin

H8GHOTI wrote: »

Then I’m not sure why you quoted me.
Got the impression you were contradicting what I said.

Just pointing out that not all office work can be WFH that's all.

_Kaiser_

bladespin wrote: »

Just pointing out that not all office work can be WFH that's all.

Exactly!

Plus, a lot of people don't have the setup for prolonged WFH - maybe they're renting a house with 3 others, maybe they don't have enough space for a home office, maybe the distractions of kids and family are impacting on their ability to work...

Then because the capacity on public transport is restricted, or because they see it as increased risk, many are driving where they otherwise wouldn't - adding to the traffic H8 is seeing


But ultimately, we have to remember... despite all the negativity from Tony H and co, despite the constant calls to "do more" and finger-wagging at those living their lives, deaths continue to be extremely low and many of the new cases are within hospitals themselves.

Plus, this is a seasonal virus. We were always going to see increased cases in the colder months and in the spring/early summer they'll reduce to single/double digits as they did earlier in the year. It means nothing.. OUTCOME of cases is the important metric and for the overwhelming majority, the outcome is positive.

Tony H is desperate now as he sees his grip on the population failing. He's tried shaming the youth, people having a drink in the open air, people wanting to come home for Christmas in a year when it's even more important to them than ever, and now it's people working to pay their bills and support themselves and their families.

Even the Government have had to remind him this week that he doesn't make the decisions and his media appearances and edicts are unwelcome.

Lockdown in ending in a week and a half whether he likes it or not.

bladespin

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Exactly!

Plus, a lot of people don't have the setup for prolonged WFH - maybe they're renting a house with 3 others, maybe they don't have enough space for a home office, maybe the distractions of kids and family are impacting on their ability to work...

I have to admit I found it nearly impossible, I split my time between the office (hands on etc) and WFH when not at customer sites (my main gig), my OH runs her own business from home too, that and our two boys off school made it 'interesting' - 0 chance of taking and conference calls (even with a headset), internet was ok but prone to drop down (probably due to everyone else around logging on too).

SuperRabbit

Plus, this is a seasonal virus. We were always going to see increased cases in the colder months and in the spring/early summer they'll reduce to single/double digits as they did earlier in the year. It means nothing.. OUTCOME of cases is the important metric and for the overwhelming majority, the outcome is positive.

Why do people insist on spreading lies? What exactly is your source on that, Donald Trump? You think north Brazil is cold in July (winter) and that's why they have so many cases and deaths?

A rise in temperature slightly lowers the death rates and slightly slows the spread. Slightly. We saw few cases and deaths in the summer because we locked down and locking down works.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

bladespin wrote: »

Just pointing out that not all office work can be WFH that's all.

No one's saying it can be. But official advice is that unless your work is absolutely essential and can't be done from home then don't go into work. But obviously many people are ignoring that and covid cases are going up.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Why do people insist on spreading lies? What exactly is your source on that, Donald Trump? You think north Brazil is cold in July (winter) and that's why they have so many cases and deaths?

A rise in temperature slightly lowers the death rates and slightly slows the spread. Slightly. We saw few cases and deaths in the summer because we locked down and locking down works.

Agree

c68zapdsm5i1ru

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Exactly!

Plus, a lot of people don't have the setup for prolonged WFH - maybe they're renting a house with 3 others, maybe they don't have enough space for a home office, maybe the distractions of kids and family are impacting on their ability to work...

Then because the capacity on public transport is restricted, or because they see it as increased risk, many are driving where they otherwise wouldn't - adding to the traffic H8 is seeing


But ultimately, we have to remember... despite all the negativity from Tony H and co, despite the constant calls to "do more" and finger-wagging at those living their lives, deaths continue to be extremely low and many of the new cases are within hospitals themselves.

Plus, this is a seasonal virus. We were always going to see increased cases in the colder months and in the spring/early summer they'll reduce to single/double digits as they did earlier in the year. It means nothing.. OUTCOME of cases is the important metric and for the overwhelming majority, the outcome is positive.

Tony H is desperate now as he sees his grip on the population failing. He's tried shaming the youth, people having a drink in the open air, people wanting to come home for Christmas in a year when it's even more important to them than ever, and now it's people working to pay their bills and support themselves and their families.

Even the Government have had to remind him this week that he doesn't make the decisions and his media appearances and edicts are unwelcome.

Lockdown in ending in a week and a half whether he likes it or not.

Gosh you obviously know it all. Why on earth aren't you running the Hse, or even the country.

bladespin

Paxton Great Mirage wrote: »

No one's saying it can be. But official advice is that unless your work is absolutely essential and can't be done from home then don't go into work. But obviously many people are ignoring that and covid cases are going up.

The vast majority of work is considered essential according to current guidelines, the essential list looks small enough but it’s actually enormous.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

bladespin wrote: »

The vast majority of work is considered essential according to current guidelines, the essential list looks small enough but it’s actually enormous.

Yes but how much is essential and cannot be done from home?

I know in my workplace there are people regularly going in and everyone else is wondering why as their presence in the office isn't essential. They just prefer to go in.

_Kaiser_

SuperRabbit wrote: »

Why do people insist on spreading lies? What exactly is your source on that, Donald Trump? You think north Brazil is cold in July (winter) and that's why they have so many cases and deaths?

A rise in temperature slightly lowers the death rates and slightly slows the spread. Slightly. We saw few cases and deaths in the summer because we locked down and locking down works.

Locking down does nothing except cause a lot of other issues - economic, social, physical and mental health, and of course other medical issues that aren't caught in time because of the fear factor. As soon as you open up again, the cases start to rise. It's not realistic nor desirable to lock a population down indefinitely.

I'll say it again. Out of a population of 5 million, after 9 months, we have seen only 2000-ish deaths when compared to initial predictions of several times that.
Despite the significantly increased case numbers since the start of autumn, ICU admissions continue to be extremely low, and actual deaths even lower.
Many people don't even realise that they have CV-19 until they're told they've tested positive, that's how little risk it is to them.

In other words, this virus is nowhere near as deadly as was first feared and Ireland has, on the whole, come through it very well. Yes, the deaths that have occurred are sad and a loss to their families and loved ones, but let's not forget many of those deaths have been the direct result of the scandalous decisions made regarding elderly patients and nursing homes in the early phases, and the continued inability of the HSE to manage hospitals and treatment generally.

It's a fallacy to believe that people won't die, and indeed are dying, regardless of CV-19 and it's very likely that many more will die because of the negative effects that all this has had on other essential care like cancer screenings and treatment.

The other thing lockdown has done is cause significant social issues in this country with "we're all in this together" rapidly changing to "you're with us or you're against us" and "everyone is in this with me".

We've seen it very evident on this site alone where battle lines are drawn between those who are in agreement with the restrictions and those who question the need and proportionality of the decisions, but it's rife amongst social and mainstream media platforms generally and more concerning is the targeting and shouting down (to the point of hounding them out of their jobs in some cases) of other medical professionals and experts who are not "on message" with the accepted narrative on those platforms. Whatever your views on restrictions, this is a dangerous turn for free speech and debate in a society.

Just as worrying is the apparent relegation of our elected Government in favour of the edicts of the same group of medical professionals and civil servants who have mismanaged the response and health service generally. That's not healthy for our democracy as a whole.

The bottom line is that all lockdown has ultimately done in Ireland is make the situation worse.

Zebra3

Paxton Great Mirage wrote: »

No one's saying it can be. But official advice is that unless your work is absolutely essential and can't be done from home then don't go into work. But obviously many people are ignoring that and covid cases are going up.

Each person's work is essential to them.

Weepsie

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Locking down does nothing except cause a lot of other issues - economic, social, physical and mental health, and of course other medical issues that aren't caught in time because of the fear factor. As soon as you open up again, the cases start to rise. It's not realistic nor desirable to lock a population down indefinitely.

I'll say it again. Out of a population of 5 million, after 9 months, we have seen only 2000-ish deaths when compared to initial predictions of several times that.
Despite the significantly increased case numbers since the start of autumn, ICU admissions continue to be extremely low, and actual deaths even lower.
Many people don't even realise that they have CV-19 until they're told they've tested positive, that's how little risk it is to them.

In other words, this virus is nowhere near as deadly as was first feared and Ireland has, on the whole, come through it very well. Yes, the deaths that have occurred are sad and a loss to their families and loved ones, but let's not forget many of those deaths have been the direct result of the scandalous decisions made regarding elderly patients and nursing homes in the early phases, and the continued inability of the HSE to manage hospitals and treatment generally.


The other thing lockdown has done is cause significant social issues in this country with "we're all in this together" rapidly changing to "you're with us or you're against us" and "everyone is in this with me".


.

That number of deaths shows lockdown might have worked.

I'm astounded that people who generally don't give a **** about real mental health issues are all of a sudden experts.

Society has ways been like that.

_Kaiser_

Paxton Great Mirage wrote: »

Gosh you obviously know it all. Why on earth aren't you running the Hse, or even the country.

Childishness and grandstanding for likes aside, have you anything add or counter what I've said?

What I find amazing is how people like yourself have blind faith in the same group of officials and organisation who have mismanaged the health service for decades, squandered ever increasing budgets without real improvements being delivered, and stumbled from crisis to scandal throughout.

Why exactly do you believe that they're suddenly any more professional or competent on this issue? I'm guessing you'll probably be surprised when the inevitable enquiries and tribunal come along into the handling of the situation once this IS finally all over.

bladespin

Paxton Great Mirage wrote: »

Yes but how much is essential and cannot be done from home?

I know in my workplace there are people regularly going in and everyone else is wondering why as their presence in the office isn't essential. They just prefer to go in.

This is where it becomes difficult, I've and managed (usually) to work remotely quite often, a very recent example: an essential medical customer had a line down issue due to a computer failure on one of their machines, new computer sourced, software loaded and of course it still didn't work, traced to a software driver issue, if you work with software you'll understand that a driver update is literally a 5 minute job (no exaggeration) BUT with their engineers and myself all working remotely it suddenly became complicated, especially as they cannot allow outside access to their internal network - cue IT managers, line managers, myself and some poor unfortunate picked from those present at the factory - eventually done but it took nearly a full day to do, it would have been quicker for me to jump in the car and drive from Dublin to Galway, do the job and head back.
In future I'd be very unlikely to try to do that remotely again due to hassle, cost etc.

(sorry that looks a bit long winded)

cdeb

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What I find amazing is how people like yourself have blind faith in the same group of officials and organisation who have mismanaged the health service for decades, squandered ever increasing budgets without real improvements being delivered, and stumbled from crisis to scandal throughout.

The HSE are made up of qualified medical personnel, taking their guidance here from the WHO, also a body of very experienced medical professionals. Both bodies include specialists on infectious diseases.

Medical professionals the world over are taking very similar steps to us, so we're hardly an outlier.

Could you set out your own medical qualifications for us? That will help us decide whether to listen to the HSE/WHO or to a random punter on the internet.

8k71ps

cdeb wrote: »

The HSE are made up of qualified medical personnel, taking their guidance here from the WHO, also a body of very experienced medical professionals. Both bodies include specialists on infectious diseases.

Medical professionals the world over are taking very similar steps to us, so we're hardly an outlier.

Could you set out your own medical qualifications for us? That will help us decide whether to listen to the HSE/WHO or to a random punter on the internet.

Medical professionals who refused to accept the efficacy of masks and bungled the response right from the beginning, with the airports remaining opening and covid freely able to spread for months. However the truth that the covid-deniers don't get is that the government is utterly destroying the response not by going too far, but by not doing nearly enough to bring about a return to normality. There is simply no alternative to lockdown without proper testing, tracing and quarantining, which they have utterly failed to do. If they can't even properly quantify the risks of schools being open (which at the very least has many other countries far more wary of the situation then us) then they aren't fit to rule or advise.