Your New WHS Index

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123862115#Comment_123862115

An 18 hole comp needs a minimum 10 completed holes played to be acceptable for handicap record. So it should be deleted as it's ineligible.

You then have to deal with the fact of it being an non return and contact the player. Then decide if it's a warning for 1 off or further action needed (repeat NRs etc).

Usually it's a genuine excuse where the player thought they could just play 9 or had to leave because something came up.

Seve OB

yes I deleted score

Was just curious what others thoughts were

as regards to not finishing the round, well I’m really a fan of this malarkey of grilling people and penalising them. People walk in cause Saturday was absolutely biblical. Played 14 myself and we walked in. I actually offered to stay out as playing partner was doing ok but he was insistent and nobody could blame him. We were one of 2 groups on the back 9. Sometimes people piss off because the round is taking to long. You can’t blame anyone in those instances. I’ve seen people walk off because they are playing terrible, I’m not a fan of that kind of carry on, but they are not children (even though they might be a bit childish by quitting 🤣) and can make their own decisions. As long as they are not leaving anyone in the lurch to mark cards etc, let them off. I don’t see the logic in grilling them and penalising them. It’s a bit of a daft expectation from Golf Ireland

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123865006#Comment_123865006

IMO it is too much work to figure out if a case is genuine or not. If a player signs into an 18 hole competition, he should endeavour to complete it, he shouldn't need a guardian to remind him of his responsibilities. I think the committee can step in when someone does it regularly, other than that, there's no point IMO.
Last Saturday is a very good example, absolute no point in playing on, even if the course stayed open, conditions were so bad it was near impossible to play decent golf.

coillcam

I agree there should be an element of common sense. However NRs are a problem in most clubs. Once you do a bit of leg work at the beginning and send a few emails it sorts itself out. Then it's is much easier to manage. It doesn't become a full time babysitting job. Ultimately it's to stop repeat offenders, have accurate handicaps and ensure you're getting an accurate PCC.

big_drive

A situation I noticed in my own club. Player was playing ahead of me in club competition (plus handicapper). Was interested to see what score he'd shoot but his name never appeared on the results list. Found out later from one of his group he played poorly and didn't enter a score afterwards. I assumed it would automatically be a NR. But nothing appears on his Golf Ireland either. He did sign in for the round beforehand, he was ahead of me signing in on computer. Is this standard or a fault of my club? Basically it seems if a player doesn't enter the score nothing appears despite having signed in for the round

Fann Linn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123866662#Comment_123866662

In our club, if it's a first offence they may get a 'yellow card' via a phone call from the handicap secretary. If it occurs again he's disqualified from the comp and a penalty score attached to his record.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123866662#Comment_123866662

If he signed in, but didn't enter a score or return a card, he should still appear in the results with a NR.

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123866706#Comment_123866706

That's what I thought. But it doesn't appear to happen. I'm wondering if my club is after messing up some settings or something

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123866662#Comment_123866662

This is a very good example. A small number of elite players will "mind" their handicap in this manner so that they qualify for a prestigious amateur comp. They likely have no chance of doing well, but can brag that I played in the XYZ c'ship. Is that fair to other players who've genuinely earned their handicap and lost out on entry by a small margin?

The same can happen for interclubs, where a player can't be higher than X index to participate.

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867164#Comment_123867164

I know an example of a player who played in one of the big championships this year. In the lead up to the championship he was on our course a lot but didn't seem to be playing any comps. Another player told me it was because his handicap was right on what was expected to be the cut off point to get into the championship. He had a couple of his counting rounds due to come out next so he was intentionally not playing any comps for the month before the championship so his handicap would not change. It's not cheating but I'm not sure what you'd call it, there's something not in the spirit of the game about it.

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867192#Comment_123867192

It is 100% handicap manipulation.
While committees can do something about NRs, not much can be done about this.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867226#Comment_123867226

Competition organisers can insist on a minimum number of competitions in the competition year. But of course, that can be manipulated too.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867226#Comment_123867226

You could just say it was practice, and you are not allowed put in practice as handicap qualifying rounds. So I would disagree that he is manipulating his handicap because it is not as if he went out on course declaring a qualifying round and didn’t submit it because it didn’t suit him.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123866662#Comment_123866662

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123866706#Comment_123866706

yes should be in the results with an NR but nothing should show in his GI record.

I posted above about how some of these (in my own club) seemed to be coming over from HDID into GI with 18 double bogeys.

I’d much rather see nothing in GI for these guys than an overly high SD.

slingerz

what would you do if it was the handicap secretary doing that?!?!

Gandalph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867226#Comment_123867226

While not involved myself I know from organisers for East/West, etc. of Ireland have their own criteria to eliminate the vanity handicaps. All they are doing is taking spots off more deserving people.

moycullen14

If only everyone was trying to move their handicap in the same direction, you could come up with some scheme to prevent it. Between the low vanity handicaps and the high handicap bandits, it's impossible! Or is it?

Maybe below a certain handicap (3 to 5) you could reverse things and try and push handicaps up? Not sure how you'd do it. If you don't play enough counting scores (say 10 / six months) or you submit NR then you get a shot back?

For high handicaps (>10?) you'd do the opposite. I dunno, maybe it's just too difficult. The quote the great Homer 'If at first you don't succeed, give up!'

billy3sheets

Sounds like a right job for AI @moycullen14 !

If you could provide it with a golfer's scoring history. Would you know what instructions to give it though?

moycullen14

If you could identify the direction someone wants their handicap to go - up or down - then apply rules to push it in the opposite direction :-)

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123872820#Comment_123872820

Not sure any AI does mind reading. 🤣

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123866400#Comment_123866400

A guardian to remind him of his responsibilities? Ah here, it's a round of golf! If someone is out golfing it's because they want to. If they want to come in, it's not a crime.

blue note

The problem with penalty scores is that they mean different things to different people. Lots of higher handicaps desperately want to come down and lots of lower handicaps want an extra couple of shots. And the reverse of both is also true.

If someone is regularly declaring and not submitting cards, perhaps it's a restriction on them winning prizes that's appropriate? Or entering comps or something? I dunno.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123873135#Comment_123873135

The penalty scores can be applied as a low or high differential depending on the circumstances.

Spot on regarding repeat NRs. It's up to the committee to decide but restricting comp entry for a period of time is a sound option. I don't think you'd have cause to go further than that.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123865006#Comment_123865006

I tend to agree with this. We've got such variable weather in this country, its fairly regular for a morning to be fine and an afternoon like the end of the world or vice versa. I really have no issue with a group coming in when its awful and my own group would do it at times - it seems like this "summer" has been worse than others for weekend weather, but maybe that's just perception. I've no time for this craic of penalty scores and having to account for coming in, we're all adults supposedly taking part in our passtime - when it becomes a chore or an administrative PITA, you'll have guys just not bothering entering the competition at all and just playing social rounds. I've struggled with injury this year and have had several rounds where I've said if my back holds up I'll stay out but otherwise I'll be in early. Had to come in off the 4th tee in a medal a few months ago as I couldn't bend down to get the tee into the ground. The last thing on my mind at that point was "what about my card/score ?"

bobster453

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123873503#Comment_123873503

No its not a perception, i have watched the weather all year and Mon to Thurs fine, weekend crap.

I blame those pesky Yanks with their coal and gas guzzling behemoths they drive for raising the water temps early in the week, doesnt get to us til the weekend😄

They will do anything to win a Ryder Cup😁

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123873427#Comment_123873427

But how do you know if a low or a high one is a penalty to that person? Most people want a low handicap, so for the majority giving them a high score would be a penalty. But aside from the really low guys, people only tend to have a problem with handicaps that are too high, so the low score would be appropriate.

moycullen14

I have a cunning plan………

For 10+handicappers, silently increase everyone's handicap by 2 shots. For < 10, reduce it by 2 shots. High handicap bandits will be delighted with this as will the low handicap 'vanity' crowd. They will not complain whereas the rest will howl and call their solicitors.

Immediately you've identified what everybody wants. You can then instigate the appropriate punishment regime for all golfers. Can't fail. Can you patent an idea?

Gandalph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123873646#Comment_123873646

It's been an absolute disaster as a Sunday golfer for the past 6-7 months where I am, not so much with rain but avg wind speeds Mon-Fri 10-15kmph then Sat-Sun 35-45kmph…every. single. weekend.

Gandalph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123874222#Comment_123874222

Just do away with the handicap system altogether and implement an honour system; you ask someone what they think they should be playing off and go from there. It would be like that one business trick were companies give their employees infinite holidays and they end up actually using less than the typical worker…genius!

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123874099#Comment_123874099

Basically it shouldn't come to penalty scores. They've already had warnings and you'd have chatted about it before you'd get to that point.

Its primarily people binning bad scores. So that would be a high score penalty. Someone could in theory bin a good score but we all know that's incredibly rare and the handbrake would be pulled.

It's not something that happens very often. Usually a general reminder email to members and a few warning emails reduces real NRs to near zero. The only NRs then should be someone sick/injured or emergency. Still have the odd disgruntled person but repeat offenders cop on.

Obviously no one is going to chase the 20 lads who abandoned ship in dreadful weather.

There is plenty of black and white stuff in handicaps but you need to apply an element of common sense.