Your New WHS Index

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123759042#Comment_123759042

That's a good point on the greenkeeper toughening the course. A bit of tweaking and you can easily make it 1-2 shots harder. very quickly.

charlieIRL

I was talking to a handicap secretary yesterday and we were discussing handicaps. He was saying some clubs are looking to group together to go to golf Ireland to try have the max 2 shot increase in a year brought back in to combat handicap manipulation. He was telling me about certain individuals (no names mentioned) who regularly shoot 100+ in casual counting rounds but can then go out and play like a 10 handicap in the bigger club events. One guy moved in from another club and was a single digit handicap but is not off 20+.

It’s a not right how quick an Index can change. Look at me last year, went through a horrendous run of golf and my handicap went up 5 shots. Have got it down again but a few bad rounds and it will be as bad.

big_drive

Friend of mine went up around 3 shots in a month at start of summer. Nothing dodgy about it, he was playing poor golf. But it showed how quickly it could move. In the old days he'd have needed 30 .1s back to do similar.

With 9 hole general play cards allowed you could move your handicap in a couple of days if you had the time available

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123771753#Comment_123771753

You can't play more than one 9 hole counting round in a day.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123771581#Comment_123771581

would be great to get something like that going. Reckon it will fall on deaf ears though unfortunately

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123771581#Comment_123771581

If he's a handicap secretary and he's allowing this carry on, then that's on him.

finglashoop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123772990#Comment_123772990

How would he stop it?

Im genuinely interested how they can step in. And why they wouldnt

almostover

I'm still at odds with the WHS. Shot 33 pts last Sunday in a bog average round and was cut 0.2. Remember going up a full stroke earlier this summer after a similar score because a personal best round came out. I still feel it's a poor system that's aimed more at casual golfers than regular players.

Thankfully my club now doles out prizes per division, 0-6, 6-12, 12-18 & 18+. And an overall winner who normally has had a poor recent run but whose ability is much better than their handicap. As a high single digit player (6.9 index who gets 6 shots on my home course) I typically would have to shoot level or under par to win a weekend comp, never mind a big comp. I prefer junior scratch comps now. My best round ever was +3 and under par is miles away.

Golfgraffix

I think an issue is when you have reached the soft or hard cap from poor golf or an injury, it’s hard to come down, as it’s applied here as well as when going up. Personally I think it should be less weighted when coming down, that going up.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123774172#Comment_123774172

Agree with this. Id actually argue that there should be no weighting applied to reductions ever, irrespective of where you are relative to caps

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123774178#Comment_123774178

Agreed.

I hit both the soft and hard cap in 2024, after I went for a lesson I had to completely change my swing and my handicap went up as a result.

It was very frustrating once it finally clicked that my good scores were being reduced by the cap system and therefore my reductions were slowed down, it didn't make any sense to me.

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123773731#Comment_123773731

If it is as blatant as all the general play scores are 100+, and the scores returned in the majors are 80+, then handicap committees have resources to deal with that. One report I can think of is the General Play versus Competition scores report, which highlights a golfer's average scoring across both types.

Often the manipulation is a lot more subtle than that, making it more difficult to deal with.

If the people of interest have bettered their handicap by ~10 shots in two or more competitions, the handicap committee do have an obligation to look into it. One super score can be attributed to a day in the sun, but a second such round indicates an ability that is not matching the handicap.

REFLINE1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123774212#Comment_123774212

I thought the caps only affected the upward movement of your index, how do they stop your HI coming back down?

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123774532#Comment_123774532

Your differential has an adjustment applied to reduce the impact on your handicap, so it affects movement in both directions.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123774532#Comment_123774532

It basically applies the cuts with the same reduction until you're back under the soft cap

bakerbhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123772990#Comment_123772990

My h/sec Has agressively gone after a couple in our club..One guy has been cut over 9 full index points in last 12 months or so , feels agrieved but continues to go out and build away again. 20 counts later a lot of the Sec's effort has been diluted..

boccy23

Isn't it funny how the mind works…. if I was going to do anything like that, I would manipulate it to have a lower HI rather than a higher one. Getting it higher is far easier done!

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123774859#Comment_123774859

There are lads at the opposite end of the spectrum doing that too

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123774854#Comment_123774854

Honestly, this one raises an eyebrow. If the person was cut and the low index drops, the max possible that they can gain back in a rolling 12 month period is capped at 5 strokes from the low index. Painful to keep watching and cutting those types of chancers.

There are further options available to the hc committee if they have the stomach for it, but tbf it's nuclear stuff like freezing/suspending the handicap. It can be done if hc manipulation is evident.

Seve OB

I would like to see something simple

In the old system, all rounds went on your record, even the likes of non qualifying winter rounds. They just didn’t count for handicap purposes

I think all rounds should be on record because it makes it easier to review (from handicap committee point of view)

but further, any round with a SD above say 10 of your low Differential should be excluded from handicap calculation. This would certainly help combat the handicap cheats

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123777024#Comment_123777024

Definitely agree on the need for something simple. I think its very hard to diagnose exactly what the problem is though - is it blatant & widespread handicap cheating ? is it the course rating are whacky ? or is it just a function of how WHS is actually supposed to operate and we don't like it, coming from CONGU ? Probably a bit of all 3 truth be told.

For now, I'd go with reducing the hard cap & soft caps by 50%, to 2.5 & 1.5 shots and seeing how that plays out.

I think i've come full 180 degrees on WHS to be honest, I've gone from thinking it makes perfect sense and is logical, to now thinking it just doesn't work in an Irish (and possibly GB too) context. Great in theory but not in practice and pretty much a solution looking for a problem.

Seve OB

good points made there @Russman . I’d agree probably a bit of all three but controversially I’d probably think it’s more being that we don’t like the function above anything else. I genuinely think the handicap cheating element is nowhere near as widespread as others may believe. Course ratings are definitely an issue and would put that in second place. ive played enough courses to see that lots of them are not consistent.

incidentally ive run the reports for comp v general play rounds and there is no evidence at all to suggest any of our members are racking up dodgy general play rounds. I’ve only been involved for 2 years now and have only had 1 member who we needed to address

and speaking of keeping it simple, the playing Handicap needs to be done away with. Just calculate the course handicap properly and let that be that. I mean, depending on what day you are playing, who you are playing with, what club you are playing, is it an open, is it a club comp, is it a major, is it weekend or is it midweek…… the same handicap index on courses with same ratings could give you a half dozen playing handicaps… that’s just ridiculous. I’ve seen articles about clubs not adopting the chance to change the WHS with the recent changes, but the truth of the matter is, it’s to bloody complicated.

Seve OB

for the guys who know a bit about the back end, what do you do with members who don’t put their scores in for competitions?

We changed almost a year ago from club v1 to handicap master.

Our system used to put scores in for anyone who didn’t return their cards.(by default it appeared to be net double bogeys for every hole, totally wrong imo) I know this was in our back end settings because in my second club, no scores were entered to golf Ireland records.

Handicap master puts in nothing. Perhaps it’s possible to amend the back end to put penalty scores in?

and I mean proper penalty scores. As in, if you register a round on the golf ireland app but don’t submit a score it applies a penalty scores. How can we transfer this to competitions, specifically through handicap master?

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123778462#Comment_123778462

Totally agree with this, especially about the handicap cheating. I wouldn't suggest for a moment it doesn't happen, but I genuinely think its at a minimal level.

Re the various different handicaps, absolutely its too complicated. Personally I think any system that has expected scores, assumed scores & maximum scores, which are all artificial constructs, can't be a good system. I had a round last weekend, which as it happens became a counting round for me, and I had a quadruple bogey (8) on our 17th hole. It was genuine, a lie in the rough that was just tempting enough to take on a shot, lead to shank into trees, two attempts to get out, short sided with the next and two putts, yet the system only gives me a 7 for handicap purposes. Now, I don't really care either way, I've played rubbish all year and it wasn't like I would have had a good score even without the 7/8, but the score on Golf Ireland is not the actual score I shot - that, to me, just seems inherently wrong.

blue note

I'm glad to see the ratings system get some criticism. I think a system like this is fundamentally flawed for rating golf courses. A system like this is a good starting point for rating a course, but we all know courses at this stage that are just rated too easy so our scores are far less likely to count on them or vice versa. And if you're a member of one of these courses, your handicap will simply be wrong.

But I can't understand why these courses can't be identified from the scores posted and their ratings adjusted. If 1000 18 handicappers play two different courses, you'd expect consistency between the score differentials on the two. This should be a basis for adjusting a rating on a course. But as far as I understand, other than re-rating a course due to changes, the only other way a courses rating would be changed would be if there was a mistake in the first rating. So actual scores on a course would never come into the rating.

blue note

The penalty scores are an interesting problem. You need something to stop people not returning cards because they don't want their handicap to go up / down. But a penalty score to one person is a bonus cut / shot back to someone else. The cuts are probably safer from the point of view of the other club members. Until you get close to scratch and people might try to manipulate their handicap to qualify for particular competitions.

big_drive

Is it definitely correct that all courses are being re-rated? Does anyone know of a course where the rating has been changed

almostover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123778923#Comment_123778923

My home course, Kanturk, was re-rated at the start of this season to account for 2 new green complexes that were built. The course was rated slightly harder than before but still the rating probably doesn't quite reflect the difficulty. It's a tight course, just over 6000yd and not many bunker but has small very sloped greens. Apparently the difficulty of the greens doesn't contribute much to the rating.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123778477#Comment_123778477

If you stick to the non return and penalty score process it will reduce the non returns significantly. Needs the comps guys to be on board too.

A few reminder general emails go a long way. Once people realise they'll get penalties applied or further action, it changes behaviour.

After 3 non returns they should be penalised appropriately. A temporary "incentive" with something like blocked from playing comps or blocked from tee sheet app or even withholding HC index in extreme cases. Escalating as necessary for repeat behaviour.

It's not as obvious of an issue compared to banditry but it messes up the PCC calculation. In turn the PCC affects everyone. Even 0.1 is enough to impact playing handicaps, matchplay and interclubs.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779082#Comment_123779082

yes it is a subtle problem and we've sent emails, but they fall on deaf ears. example below how the problem is just impossible to beat. this happened 2 weeks ago at my away course

I played with just 1 other guy. they use how did I do to enter scores on mobile app. my opposition told me half way through not to put his score in as he was playing terrible. I explained to him I am handicap sec at other club and he must put his score in. then his phone went dead 🤔

now for clarification, you put your own score into the app and also the score of who you are marking. then at end of round, once they match, your score is submitted. I did both, but he did neither. sure his phone was dead, he couldn't put his score in. I offered him a charger and he told me "sure it would take half an hour for it to charge up"🤣

he went into shop after and told them he wasn't putting his score in and asked them to attest my score. so shop just as bad for facilitating… but as I say, away club and I'll be leaving there soon enough so not my problem… but it just highlights the problem is there with people just doing what they want to do and no matter how clearly you explain to them, they don't give a toss

yes, penalties scores the only way forward, but is there a way to make them automatic? or do you have to do it manually?

some good ideas there about the temp incentive by blocking handicap etc… might look at that