Your New WHS Index

finglashoop

I rarely play casual golf ( only interclub practice rounds) nearly 100% competition rounds.

The cheating thru managing the handicap is astounding. I can only imagine what goes on in casual rounds.

Its to late now to stop it.

An even bigger issue is people not entering scores at all . Casual or competitive.

Played a doubles club matchplay against 2 fellas who never enter casual scores and rarely plays comps and never stroke play according to themselves.. Id say one of them his handicap is at least double where it should be, he was off 13 at the time

bakerbhoy

A few individuals less than 10 received reductions ranging up to 5 on their index in the past weeks.This was carried out under a term in the clubs constitution giving the power to the committee not an individual sec. Player deemed not to properly trying.

One of the recipients has now had reductions of 5 ,4 and now 5 in the past 18 months.. probably more to follow..

Rebuilding will commence next day.

This has to very stressful for the people entrusted with administrating this process.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123504591#Comment_123504591

Are they making any effort to kick out the member? Or at least ban him from competitive golf? What you describe is clearly cheating. Would doctoring his scores be tolerated in the same way?

bakerbhoy

It is in a very delicate legal area.

It seems to approach the defamation arguments.

And not withstanding the financial world golf clubs generally find themselves. Money is money.

One club sacrificing itself is not going to do it.

Golf Ireland R&A USPGA these need to address the gapping hole they burst through in the handicap system and own it..

Shank Williams

I’ve know of shameless bandits sending solicitor letters over legitimate handicap committee cuts.

It’s not easy to stand up to some of this stuff

bakerbhoy

I had a conversation about this issue the other day and a possible solution was put forward..

Reducing the hardcap as we previously opined.

Secondly expand the array that the eight differentials are taken from ..

Currently 20. Move that number to 32 or above.

Result. The good scores remain counting for longer and interventions by H/cap committee also are not as quickly removed, making the sandbagging process less worthwhile..

Seve OB

there are plenty of possible solutions, lots of which have been discussed here before including those 2, but ultimately it makes no difference discussing them here or in the bar after your round cause we are not the decision makers 😩

bakerbhoy

Yes we. make our minds up and we are seeing the consequences.

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123496842#Comment_123496842

Ever get to the bottom of this?

I've found a couple in old records I looked up recently. I've seen it come from clubv1 and handicapmaster (away). So it's not unique to the software.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123526302#Comment_123526302

yes and no

golf ireland told me it was players manually entering zeros, but I don't think so

we moved from club v1 to handicap master last October. I haven't seen it happen at all since then

I actually think it was the way competitions were closed and the systems dealt with unreturned scores. I picked up a good few players this was happening with, way to many and multiple dates for people to be manually entering zeros and if you are also seeing it, that backs up my theory.

I was thinking it was a club v1 problem or a settings issue, but if you are saying you saw it in handicap master, that likely rules a clubv1 issue out

I think its fixed though because

I am in another club who also uses club v1 and I have looked at recent zero scores in the results… plenty of them, and then looked the players records on golf ireland and don't see zero scores…

I do see a good few there though from last year, but as I don't have back end access in that club, I cannot see the date to be sure they match up, but ive check a half dozen or so and am pretty sure it was the same there.

coillcam

@Seve OB It's definitely the competition software processing NRs weirdly. Like you say nobody would bother to sit down and enter 18 zeros. Those cards are in the bin and yer man is finishing his pint instead of returning a score.

I haven't noticed any recently but I'll spot check a few random comps to see that it matches up.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123527184#Comment_123527184

Pretty sure you can't enter a 0 in Handicap Master. If you enter a 0 it gets converted to a pick up.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123527478#Comment_123527478

same thing at the end of the day

bakerbhoy

Entered a card for a playing partner who retired after 3 holes.. 3 scratchs.

Entered played but did not score for those three and Ticked .

Checked his GI scores it did not register.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123527741#Comment_123527741

What did you put for the other 15?

You have to play 10 holes for it to count in an 18 hole round.

bakerbhoy

Used the ✅️.

The round had been registered so I entered/returned the card and score which turned out to be Zero..

To avoid penalty score.

Chap was sick as two small hospitals. Early out on Captain's and late to bed..

coillcam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123527871#Comment_123527871

Technically, you shouldn't put in someone else's score/card, but that's being a bit pedantic about rules in the situation. We know you're just trying to help out.

It's up to the competition team to decide if the round is a permitted NR that avoids a penalty score (illness/injury/emergency). They're meant to check for all non-returned or incomplete cards before closing the comp.

Then there's the NR process for dealing with repeat NR offenders and how they are further penalised if required on the handicap side.

Seve OB

Anyone worked out an adjusted gross for a 4ball?

I've been asked by a member why his score was counting as they only had 41 points and I've been able to tell him it was because that was based on 75% playing handicap which we use for 4balls, but WHS uses 85% and using that, they would have had 43 points.

however when I work out his adjusted gross by adding scores in on the holes he didn't contribute, I'm not getting the right answer.

he didn't score on following holes but his partner had at least 2 points on each of them, his course handicap is 17

par 4 index 1 so I give him 5.5

par 3 index 17 so I give him 4.5

par 4 indes 5 so I give him 5.5

par 4 index 2 so I give him 5.5 (partner actually had 6 and 1 point in comp here, but 2 points if using 85% WHS rule)

par 3 index 18 so I give him 3.5

par 5 index 6 so I give him 6.5

Above adds up to 31 strokes

he took 51 strokes for the 12 holes he did score on

gives a total of 82 but GI applied an adjusted gross of 81

paulos53

You said course handicap of 17, so is his playing handicap lower?

I don't know what percentage they use for playing handicap in this scenario. 85% or 95%?

That might give him 3.5 instead of 4.5 for the index 17 par 3

Seve OB

yes but handicap is always worked out on course handicap and not playing handicap.

Below from golf Ireland website with last years changes

“The points total of the eligible score is adjusted to reflect the difference between CH and PH (i.e., the score at 85% is uplifted to the score at 100%)”

grousedogtom

HI

Apologies if this has been covered previously but can't find an explanation

See attached 2 rounds with same course rating ,same slope ,same pcc ,yet different score differential

I was under the impression handicap index isn't part of the score differential calculation

Can anyone explain this to me please

coillcam

Need to see the overall gross scores to do the calculations. If you shot the same gross number 100 for example in both rounds. It could have been adjusted gross of 98 for handicap purposes in 1 round.

The difference in 2 shots could be where you exceeded a net double bogey for a hole. Eg carded a 9 on a par 4 but your net double would be capped at 7.

An adjusted gross is alway listed in brackets beside the true gross. The adjusted gross is what always feeds into the differential calculation.

Try calculating this yourself for both rounds. There are online calculators that you can plug the numbers into.

Seve OB

exactly. Adjusted gross is the only score that counts

grousedogtom

Thanks

grousedogtom

Thanks

paulos53

20.8 is the correct score differential for a score of 95 with that course & slope rating.

My best guess is that the round with the 19.8 score differential had been reduced due to an exceptional score on the handicap record.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123591456#Comment_123591456

This was going to be my next point, as had this exact discussion with another boards member recently.

The older score had a general play observation cut applied to it on his record

bladerunnerx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123588371#Comment_123588371

Seve…Where does it say that on GI website. We had similar issue at our club which we passed to GI but no reply to date.

grousedogtom

Thanks everyone for your response

Much appreciated

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123591872#Comment_123591872

https://www.golfireland.ie/club-hub-detail/2024-whs-update-resources

here is link