Your New WHS Index

mjsc1970

Casual Scores - does my head in.

moycullen14

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123778672#Comment_123778672

I'm not sure how you would generate ratings/slope from cards submitted. If everyone is scoring 36 points on average then their handicaps are right for that course. The problem is when they play somewhere else and for visitors to that course. It also manifests itself in team competitions. The problem did exist under CONGU but maybe not to the same extent.

Unless you get the same golfers playing a lot of different courses, you'll never get it right. Whatever criteria you use to judge a course, it won't be right for everyone. That said, some of the ratings are just way out of whack.

At this stage all I can use WHS for is tracking my own progress. Competitions have become a bit of a lottery.

RGS

Just my twopence worth. id reduce the soft cap to 2 shots and the hard cap to 3 shots.

on general play scores these should only result in handicap reductions and the same should apply to 9 hole competition cards.

That would/should reduce the number of options open to upward handicap manipulation.

Sorbet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123782135#Comment_123782135

Restricting general play scores to handicap reductions only is genius. I think it’s important to leave an avenue for those willing to work on their handicap downwards at fast pace outside of competition but as you suggest no need to offer an easy way to send the handicap in the other direction.

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123782065#Comment_123782065

Away rounds. If the away rounds on your course are better than expected, that would indicate that your course ranking is too hard. And if that courses members away rounds are worse than expected that would also indicate that their course ranking is too hard. And there's surely enough away rounds recorded now to be able to identify a few obvious wrong ratings.

You can be sure now that people are playing / avoiding certain courses because of the effect it will have on their handicap. I moved club because of it as did one of my friends.

thewobbler

absolutely right @blue note

I’d imagine the majority of visitors for most open competitions are from local clubs, which means the data in those cases will have enough depth to be accurate.

Extracting the data for eg Donabate, Balcarrick, Beaverstown members in each other’s open competitions over the past 3 years, then evaluating the average against 36 points, well that’s the kind of project an Excel tutor would ask their newbies to complete after a couple of hours.

spacecoyote

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123782135#Comment_123782135

That's not a bad idea at all re reduction only. Tricky one to manage systematically. You'd have to really maintain a second database for each player i guess, one with just general play rounds, so they only get promoted to your habdicap record if they improved your HI

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123782265#Comment_123782265

Well you'd base it on score differentials, not points. And you could compare scores at a national level, or in theory international.

Every handicap index should have an average expected score differential at an away club. There are millions of rounds logged. If the system is working right, the score differentials should be consistent once you have enough rounds. I imagine there's a graph that shows at each handicap index what the average score differential would be on an away course once you have a minimum number of rounds logged.

If your could just plot the average away score differentials in your club for each handicap index, this line should be roughly the same as the expected ones. If it's not, surely you could adjust the course ratings and slope to bring them together.

And this would need to be done by the people rating the courses, not the courses themselves. To me this just seems like common sense post implementation analysis that should be done. What results were we expecting? What results did we get? Why the difference? But I definitely would not trust clubs to adjust their own ratings!!!

Gipo3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123782170#Comment_123782170

I wonder if the use/non use of 85% playing handicap is also affecting courses/comps entered? This has had a huge effect on the balance of prizes across handicap categories since moving to 85%

Gandalph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123782170#Comment_123782170

This would be an interesting variable in terms of rating a course but it definitely could not be the driver of a rating. I think you'll find there are a lot of people with phenomenal home course management/knowledge that won't translate at away courses.

big_drive

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123784312#Comment_123784312

100%, there are a couple of + handicappers at my club who can shoot a few under but have never even gone close to a decent score in anything outside of our club. They are plus handicap officially but in reality are probably more like 2-4 handicap outside of the club. Which is a problem too as they are getting places in championships ahead of golfers who are probably actually better than them.

moycullen14

You really could go mad trying to figure this out. There seems to be any number of counter examples, exceptions, etc to any scheme that you might introduce or any 'fix' that might be applied. At this stage, I'm wondering if there is any point at all to course ratings and slope. It's too subjective and dependent on the individual. I might be a 10 hc on one course and a 15 on another and it could be the reverse for someone else. No way to have one rating for everybody.

For example: No-one would dispute that Ballybunion of the blues is a very difficult course, but whereas it's hard for some golfers, it's just impossible for me because I'm short off the tee. I don't know what you do to compensate for that.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123784559#Comment_123784559

Exactly this. I mean, how do you compare a Ballybunion with a Mount Juliet ? The nature of the challenge is just so different, even though its still the same sport. Even on a smaller scale in Dublin how do you compare a pan flat layout like, say, Milltown with a mountain course like a Stackstown and a Portmarnock ? Its the same sport but that's about all they have in common. That's before you even look at the hugely variable conditions we can face on our little windswept rock. WHS might work for Florida resort golf but I don't think its a good fit for us tbh.

Even the notion of a handicap that's transferable around the world - how many people does that apply to, really ? Talk about a red herring.

big_drive

Would it just be better to have a handicap index that you round up or down and you just use that. Full handicap with no percentage adjustment for different courses,tees. Or is that too simple. Go back to using the old standard scratch score system that adjusts based on difficulty of course used for handicap cuts, etc.

Example, a 6.2 handicap round to 6, another person with 17.6 handicap rounds to 18

Gandalph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123784455#Comment_123784455

I know a few too! It's always fairly evident when Interclubs rolls around and a lot of the players don't want to play away…we're a links club and it becomes even more obvious when it's a parklands opponent.

Seve OB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123784710#Comment_123784710

isn’t that basically CONGU

while I’m not a massive fan of WHS the one really good thing is it adjusting for different course difficulties

And while that process does have its flaws as mentioned above, it is fairer than a flat handicap

blue note

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123784312#Comment_123784312

It would have to be an adjustment after the scores are in. I don't know about a lot of people as you describe - there are a few who shaves a couple of strokes off their scores from experience on a course, but given enough scores from different players, it'll balance out at least to a hell of a lot closer than we have now.

And comparing the difficulty of all the different courses - didn't CONGU do that too with standard scratch?

I just think this is an obvious flaw in the system. I could pick a couple of courses and guess that if you looked at all the away scores on them, the average score differentials throughout all the different handicap indexes are consistently higher than the average score differentials on all aways courses throughout the handicap indexes. The handicaps that will be most affected by this will be the members.

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123784697#Comment_123784697

To play devils advocate here a little. Given above example of someone short off the tee struggling in Ballybunion, they will have the exact same issues in MJ off the blues so yes the courses are wildly different but a lack of distance is a universal hindrance regardless of course setup. I do agree that the ratings don't account for the variability in course style, green complexes etc. as it almost all seems to be weighted in favour or distance and hazards. Courses with no water aren't necessarily easy but WHS rates them as such.

Russman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123785690#Comment_123785690

Oh I don't disagree with you. It just seems, from what I've seen (in fairness I haven't looked into it in great detail, so maybe i'm totally wrong), that distance seems to have way too much weighting in the rating process. You can have a short, tight, tricky layout that's very difficult to actually score on, even its its only 5,800-6,000 yards or something. I often find elevation changes and prevailing wind direction have a bigger influence than pure yardage.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123778923#Comment_123778923

Re-rating happens every ten years or so. Courses being rated now, probably haven't been rated since 2014 or 2015.

Also as pointed out above, if changes have been made. Played Donegal (Murvagh) yesterday and it has been re-rated because of changes to some of the holes. Most notably the 5th. Rated easier now.

prawnsambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123779211#Comment_123779211

You have to apply them manually. From the HM help system:

1. On the Handicapping Menu, choose Record Penalty Score and select the applicable Member. 2. In the Played On box, enter the date when the qualifying score was returned. Choose the order the score is entered in the handicap record by selecting AM or PM. 3. Select the Holes Played for this penalty score. 4. Click Next >. 5. Select the applicable course to be used for the Penalty Score in the Course Played box. 6. In the Tees box, choose the applicable tees to record the score against. 7. Click OK. 8. Enter the Penalty Score.

big_drive

Anyone having trouble since yesterday signing into the Golf Ireland app?