Is The Property Market Unfair to First Time Buyers?

fliball123

brisan wrote: »

There was always people looking for houses for free
That's why Ballyfermot, Finglas Cabra ,Ballymun was built
Trouble is now the Government will not build them as it would upset the big developers
Money is there ,land is there ,the will to build is not

You also have to look at the nature of how hard it is to get on the property ladder and even do it is harder now it was always hard. Some people don't like others being given something for free when others are breaking their billocks off working paying tax , paying a mortgage to get the same. The whole Moral hazard side of property is probably the worst part of it for me.

As an example I have a 2 nieces 1 has 3 kids 3 different daddies never worked a day in her life and already she has turned down 4 houses off the housing list (nice ones at that aswell) she wants to live in a certain area and in a certain style and she has told me she will be getting what she wants next year. The other niece played by the rules college, good job, saving like hell, no kids she wants to get married and be settled in a gaff before that and she is struggling, now she does like to go on the beer and holidays and upgraded her car twice in the last 5 years and always seems to have the new iPhone model and in the last year she save 5 times whats she had saved in the last 3 yeas due to not being able to spend. But she cant buy as she is on her todd. So there is a lot of unfairness in it and can understand a some of the frustration on here with the system.

Just on the areas you mentioned they were notorious trouble spots when I was growing up and I dont think we need a repeat of that. Anyone building should be including 10% social housing in all areas even leafy Foxrock, Howth and the likes

almostover

fliball123 wrote: »

They have tried. I mean they upped the first time buyers grant and the builders up the price of a new house. How do you fix it? I mean if you took all the meddling away including the bank restrictions houses could of gone up a hell of a lot more, they might have came down. There are too many lefties looking for the houses for free for the market to left alone.

One of the best economic development programs was FDRs new deal post the great depression. The UK did something similar in the 1950s to get the working class housed and their economy took off as a result, a similar economic stimulus was enacted post WW2 in the US. Ireland also did this with the Lemass governments. It's a simple formula, making housing, transport, healthcare and education more accessible to those on low pay results in huge economic benefits. But there are too many free market proponents floating around in Ireland now for anyone to show enough gumption to do what is right and what is needed. Instead people get cast aside as communists and leftists if they dare to suggest anything other than the status quo.

Smiley11

almostover wrote: »

Currently looking to by my first home with my partner and finding that the property market is mental. We had set our sights on a modest detached house not too far from Cork city where we both work but that now has been ruled out as anything in our price range (€300k mortgage + €40k cash) requires a lot more that cosmetic overhaul in most cases. We have a combined salary of €105k per annum. Both of us want to be out of a mortgage in 25 years maximum and have limited our budget accordingly. No point having the so called house of your dreams if you have no disposable income to enjoy your life or be in constant fear or losing one's job and home.

We have more or less given up on the idea of a detached house in the countryside. There appears to be no value for money in the second-hand market. For example we viewed a 4 bed detached house 30mins from the city last week that was advertised for €285k and had a offer of €280k. When we viewed the property it was quite neglected, damage to the eaves and slates on the roof, cracks in the load bearing wall in the kitchen and damp around the chimney upstairs. All things fixable if the house was at the right price. But when redecoration and renovation of those items are costed the house was very poor value for money. Especially considering that the help to buy scheme gives €30k off a new A rated house. We have viewed perhaps 15 similar properties this year and have always come to the same conclusion. Therefore, have now switched tack to purchasing a semi-d in a new development.

We enquired on Thursday last week about a 4-bed semi D in a new development. 15 mins or so from the city. On the market 1 week. Only 3 properties left. Agent did not provide much in the way of details when questioned on garden sizes, aspects, technical data on build structure etc. Was sent a sexy marketing brochure and a price list and feck all else. Was told that agent would find out about other details for me but that they were getting huge demand to buy off plans. I called again at 9am this morning and in 1 day all remaining properties were sold. I am an engineer by profession and tend to ask for more detail but it's easier for the estate agents to snap up booking deposits from those less interested in the specification of what they are reserving for purchase. It's a complete frenzy out there, people forking over decent portions of their hard saved deposits based on a sales brochure. If you bought a new car from a brochure without even test driving it people would question you but one has to act fast in the property market despite the investment being about 10 times the price of a new car.

What's interesting on the new development is that the detached houses struggle to sell. The 'market' valuation dictates the asking price yet there seems to be very few customers in this market that can afford the prices of the larger detached homes.

No real point to this post other than ranting but our property market is dysfunctional. There are lots of people winning form it but it certainly isn't young working couples looking to buy their first home. The property market needs state intervention, I'm convinced of that now.

Totally agree with you on this. It seems like buyers are positively rabid when it comes to house purchases over the last few months. We're 2nd time buyers & utterly deflated. Going to view a house this week & read its write up in the paper today which is definitely pitched for the hard sell. Over 4k hits on the house on Daft. My poor husband is hopeful that we might have a chance at getting this one but I'm quite detached from the whole thing at the moment as I don't want to get emotional about a house ever again after a bad heartbreak on the last we bid on! I think we'd be better off bowing out of the market for a few months in the hope that the demand dissipates some bit in the interim but I'm not sure that will happen any time soon..its all very frustrating.

Good luck with your search...looks like we all need it at the moment!

PropQueries

almostover wrote: »

One of the best economic development programs was FDRs new deal post the great depression. The UK did something similar in the 1950s to get the working class housed and their economy took off as a result, a similar economic stimulus was enacted post WW2 in the US. Ireland also did this with the Lemass governments. It's a simple formula, making housing, transport, healthcare and education more accessible to those on low pay results in huge economic benefits. But there are too many free market proponents floating around in Ireland now for anyone to show enough gumption to do what is right and what is needed. Instead people get cast aside as communists and leftists if they dare to suggest anything other than the status quo.

And you can’t win when the only political party who apparently has your back believes building houses on state owned land and selling them onto you for c.€250k is affordable housing.

When the market does turn (and it will IMO), you will be looking at the €250k for a three bed semi near Dublin City as an insane amount of money.

I’m just hoping it happens before too many are caught out as otherwise it then it becomes my problem as it’s my pension I believe they will be coming after.

jimmycrackcorm

brisan wrote: »

Trouble is now the Government will not build them as it would upset the big developers
Money is there ,land is there ,the will to build is not

You're far from the truth. The big developers would be happy not have the government interfere with their projects as then they would sell much easier to people who don't want to have the councils install social housing trouble makers as their neighbours.

The big problem is that the bleeding heart brigade doesn't want the government to build mass council housing like we used to do in years gone by. Quite rightly they'll point to Ballymun as an example of what can go wrong, but they refuse to deal with the obvious solution which was to kick out the unsocial element. That's down to the entitlement culture that sees council housing as a right without any respect to it being a privilege given at a significant cost by the taxpayer. What's the answer to the point about a developer building a small estate of 10 one million euro houses having to provide two of them as social housing?

Now we "have" to have integrated housing development which means shelling out for more expensive housing by purchasing from private developers.

The money isn't there either, how many houses does a billion build at 300k+ a pop?

brisan

fliball123 wrote: »

There is also evidence of 30k FTBs of people getting mortgage approval from the start of the year to date which shows that if there is a will there is a way. I agree there is a lack of supply but I would also state that if you take the average full time salary of 49k

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/average-full-time-salary-in-republic-nearly-49-000-1.4289348#:~:text=The%20latest%20figures%20show%20average,increase%20of%203.7%20per%20cent).

and look for a house 3.5 times that (49k for you 49k for your partner add them together then multiply by the 3.5 add in your 10% deposit). so round it down to 350k in Dublin alone there are over 850 houses advertised for sale in Dublin alone under and up to 350k

You would need a 35k deposit 5k for stamp and solicitor. Most banks offer cash back as well at the moment.

So between you and your partner your bringing home over 6k a month after tax

https://taxcalc.ie/budget-2021/

So if you putting figures together for a mortgage and taking 1100 a month (what the other poster is paying for rent) add in another 1.9k for food, elecy, transport and other bills (which is nearly 500 a week so pretty generous) so your left with 3k .. If anyone bothered saving so no holidays, no going out, no new iphones, no car upgrade, turn off sky, netflix and amazon for the year they could have the 40k saved outlined above in a little over a year.

Now the problems with this over simplistic model is this.

People wont want to live in certain areas - bad luck you pay premium for location

Some people will not be on the average or above the average wage - Well its not my job to tell you what to do but if I was earning under the AIW I would be retraining into an area that I could earn more.

People want to live in ready to go homes - bad luck again you pay a premium for this

Some people are trying to buy by themselves - I would be looking at a 1 bed apartment about 65 1 beds up for sale under 200k , going on the average wage again.

So my point being if you want to own a home in the next 2 years you can you but you have to save and be less picky about where you want to live.

If you want to live in a desirable area in a luxury house you have to pay a premium this has always been the case and its not just in Ireland either

Bought our first house in 82
Took us 3 more moves and 37 years to get to where we always wanted to be
Some of the things we done to make our first house livable would be laughed at today
Second hand kitchen ,Smoke damaged chipboard wallpaper tha we painted over etc
Many on here of my age done exactly the same

brisan

fliball123 wrote: »

You also have to look at the nature of how hard it is to get on the property ladder and even do it is harder now it was always hard. Some people don't like others being given something for free when others are breaking their billocks off working paying tax , paying a mortgage to get the same. The whole Moral hazard side of property is probably the worst part of it for me.

As an example I have a 2 nieces 1 has 3 kids 3 different daddies never worked a day in her life and already she has turned down 4 houses off the housing list (nice ones at that aswell) she wants to live in a certain area and in a certain style and she has told me she will be getting what she wants next year. The other niece played by the rules college, good job, saving like hell, no kids she wants to get married and be settled in a gaff before that and she is struggling, now she does like to go on the beer and holidays and upgraded her car twice in the last 5 years and always seems to have the new iPhone model and in the last year she save 5 times whats she had saved in the last 3 yeas due to not being able to spend. But she cant buy as she is on her todd. So there is a lot of unfairness in it and can understand a some of the frustration on here with the system.

Just on the areas you mentioned they were notorious trouble spots when I was growing up and I dont think we need a repeat of that. Anyone building should be including 10% social housing in all areas even leafy Foxrock, Howth and the likes

Believe it or not there was a council estate in Howth that was as rough as feck back in the day
Going to saints on a night out was always a risk
Walking home as no taxis was no fun either

HerrKuehn

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The big problem is that the bleeding heart brigade doesn't want the government to build mass council housing like we used to do in years gone by. Quite rightly they'll point to Ballymun as an example of what can go wrong, but they refuse to deal with the obvious solution which was to kick out the unsocial element.

There is nothing stopping the council from demonstrating it can deal with the anti social element in existing council houses. It just refuses to do so as it doesn't affect them. Maybe we could go back to social housing estates if the existing ones were well managed.

brisan

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You're far from the truth. The big developers would be happy not have the government interfere with their projects as then they would sell much easier to people who don't want to have the councils install social housing trouble makers as their neighbours.

The big problem is that the bleeding heart brigade doesn't want the government to build mass council housing like we used to do in years gone by. Quite rightly they'll point to Ballymun as an example of what can go wrong, but they refuse to deal with the obvious solution which was to kick out the unsocial element. That's down to the entitlement culture that sees council housing as a right without any respect to it being a privilege given at a significant cost by the taxpayer. What's the answer to the point about a developer building a small estate of 10 one million euro houses having to provide two of them as social housing?

Now we "have" to have integrated housing development which means shelling out for more expensive housing by purchasing from private developers.

The money isn't there either, how many houses does a billion build at 300k+ a pop?

I have said all along with back of the cigarette packet maths that it can be done
Government borrows 5 billion
Builds 25,00 houses (3 bed 95-100sq mts )@200k each on state owned land with state providing infrastructure
Sell 20,000 at 250k and 5000 for social housing
Rinse and repeat every year
Do away with incentives to REITs and hotel builders to encourage labour back into the housing area
If these builders can afford to do while buying land surely the state can do it on their own land
https://www.myhome.ie/residential/ireland/new-homes/property-for-sale?maxprice=250000&minbeds=3

Pkiernan

<MOD SNIP>

Idbatterim

<MOD SNIP>

Idbatterim

Idbatterim wrote: »

we need to keep margaret cash and all the scum here,............
But who gives a toss about them, how much air time does RTE give them versus the sacred cows of "de vulneable" its amazing the compassion the RTE presenters seems to have for them, maybe they can relate to them, to two people thieving a living!

SF are infinitely worse than RTE at that stuff.... Mary Lou constantly wants the dole etc raised.

Graham

Mod Note

Turn this into a social housing bashing at your peril.

There will no no warnings, there may be immediate forum bans.

PropQueries

Has the department of housing got all their figures wrong? In September this year they stated the following:

“The Department of Housing figures, based on competitively tendered local authority housing projects in 2019, show the cost per unit in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and in south Dublin was €277,500, while in Waterford city it was €243,100.”

Link to article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cost-of-building-homes-can-be-much-cheaper-1.4351897?mode=amp

How can the department of housing come to the conclusion that building a home in South Dublin is not much more expensive than building in Waterford? If it is, that’s great news for the FTB and it’s about time they admitted as such.

Just to make their figures even more out of touch with market realities, A-rates three bed semis in Waterford City are currently asking €210k

Link to MyHome here: https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/three-bed-semi-detached-radharc-na-siuire-knockboy-grantstown-waterford-city-waterford/4437868

fliball123

PropQueries wrote: »

Has the department of housing got all their figures wrong? In September this year they stated the following:

“The Department of Housing figures, based on competitively tendered local authority housing projects in 2019, show the cost per unit in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and in south Dublin was €277,500, while in Waterford city it was €243,100.”

Link to article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cost-of-building-homes-can-be-much-cheaper-1.4351897?mode=amp

How can the department of housing come to the conclusion that building a home in South Dublin is not much more expensive than building in Waterford? If it is, that’s great news for the FTB and it’s about time they admitted as such.

Just to make their figures even more out of touch with market realities, A-rates three bed semis in Waterford City are currently asking €210k

Link to MyHome here: https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/three-bed-semi-detached-radharc-na-siuire-knockboy-grantstown-waterford-city-waterford/4437868

Cant see the first link does the building include land and other building related tasks that are not part of the actual build cost?

brisan

PropQueries wrote: »

Has the department of housing got all their figures wrong? In September this year they stated the following:

“The Department of Housing figures, based on competitively tendered local authority housing projects in 2019, show the cost per unit in Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown and in south Dublin was €277,500, while in Waterford city it was €243,100.”

Link to article here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/cost-of-building-homes-can-be-much-cheaper-1.4351897?mode=amp

How can the department of housing come to the conclusion that building a home in South Dublin is not much more expensive than building in Waterford? If it is, that’s great news for the FTB and it’s about time they admitted as such.

Just to make their figures even more out of touch with market realities, A-rates three bed semis in Waterford City are currently asking €210k

Link to MyHome here: https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/three-bed-semi-detached-radharc-na-siuire-knockboy-grantstown-waterford-city-waterford/4437868

One can only assume that the state owned the land
Even then the figures are too high

brisan

fliball123 wrote: »

Cant see the first link does the building include land and other building related tasks that are not part of the actual build cost?

It also notes that local authorities do not have to bear the same risk premium in securing construction finance and also that, in some cases, they will be building on land that they have bought some years ago at prices prevailing at that time.

“Where land is available, actual construction, de-risked from speculative markets and high-cost finance, is affordable, ” University College Dublin academic and housing expert Orla Hegarty, who obtained the figures, said. This is confirmed by the department’s own figures, Ms Hegarty said.

“These prices make a nonsense of what councils are paying for Part Vs and turnkeys,” she said.

“If you want to build affordable housing in Ireland, how you go about it is really important,” Ms Hegarty said. “What we’ve got at the moment is a system whereby we rely very heavily on developers, which is just one way of buying housing, and their way of buying housing is largely to do with maximising the land value,” she said.

poker--addict

Graham wrote: »

Mod Note

Turn this into a social housing bashing at your peril.

There will no no warnings, there may be immediate forum bans.

is there a specific thread for that?:D

optogirl

poker--addict wrote: »

is there a specific thread for that?:D

Yes. Pretty much every thread in After Hours.