Is The Property Market Unfair to First Time Buyers?

beauf

Shoden wrote: »

I actually question the narrative running through this thread that it's always been very hard to buy a house on a single income. Families in the past were very often single income until it became the norm that both parents worked.

How far back are you going? I would say this was common enough in the 80's. Thats 40yrs ago.

It would be interesting to find out what % of the total income is that second salary and how much ends in your pocket after the costs associated with it. Creche fees etc.
You'd also have to consider the profile of somewhere like Dublin in the 80s was internationally vs what it is now.

Jimson

beauf wrote: »

How far back are you going?
I would say this was common enough in the 80's. Thats 40yrs ago.

It would be interesting to find out what % of the total income is that second salary and how much ends in your pocket after the costs associated with it. Creche fees etc.

You'd also have to consider the profile of somewhere like Dublin in the 80s was internationally vs what it is now.

Still a dump in fairness.

Idbatterim

Jimson wrote: »

Still a dump in fairness.

there are great things and really ridiculous things! its setting is lovely, great atmosphere during normal times. transport is a disgrace, still a large amount of dereliction, the public realm is pretty crap too!

lainey_d_123

Eric Cartman wrote: »

80s : one income looks after a husband, wife and 2-3 kids
now : two incomes look after two people and a dog.

80s : no central heating and a bit of fibreglass in the attic, 1 bathroom
now : underfloor heat pump heating throughout, 3 bathrooms, solar panels etc..

This is such a weird argument.

Building standards change and things move on. Those people in the 80s didn't feel hard done by by not having underfloor heating or a solar panels because they didn't really exist. It's not as if they were roughing it at the time - they were buying the kind of houses that were available.

You might as well say they were all spoiled and didn't know they were born because they had indoor bathrooms and didn't have to go out to the outside toilet like in the old days. Or that they had these fancy brick houses rather than a makeshift shack.

People looking to buy today are looking for a reasonable level of comfort for the times they live in, just like everyone in every decade.

lainey_d_123

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm 34 and on the autism spectrum too. I have aspergers. I'm also a college dropout from TCD.


I started in my current company in November 2009. I'm currently a senior risk data analyst - a role that suits perfectly the strengths of my ASD brain, logic and numbers and binary facts.
I worked prior to that as a pricing analyst in the energy sector, same deal.


I have my own (owned) 3 bed apartment now and we are looking to move in the next 12 months to a large house outside in the country. Withboth of us working from home, we are thinking about wexford to be beside the sea (sea noises are super calming for me when I'm overwhelmed).


If I can do that theres no reason anyone else on the spectrum can't. No offense but it really bugs me when people use ASD as an excuse. Sure it's difficult and there's days I need to walk circles, punch knuckles on the wall, lie in a dark room, etc. But I get by.

How cute you think ASD is my biggest issue. :rolleyes:

I only mentioned ASD because of the extra challenges in the workplace. I also have a chronic physical illness and that's the thing that makes working really hard. Do you know what it's like to be so fatigued that you can barely keep your eyes open by 10am? Or not be able to walk up a flight of stairs because your joints are so painful? To deal with the repeated humiliation of having to run to the bathroom in the middle of meetings so you can go and sh1t blood again? Have colleagues be nasty to you to the point of bullying because you need yet more time off work for surgery and they don't understand, and feel like you're slacking off because your disability is invisible?

Many people with my condition can't work at all, or can't work more than part time, because it can be so limiting and disabling. So please spare me the 'if I can do it, anyone can' ableist bullsh1t.

Geuze

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Table 5.1

One adult <65 median NET wealth 73.7k.

Whats the difference between Net and Gross wealth in this context?

Net wealth is after liabilities are deducted.

Ok, I see the 73.7k in table 5.2. (not table 5.1)

That is the median net wealth of households made up of one adult, aged under 65.

It is NOT the median net wealth for all people aged under 65.

PHG

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

How cute you think ASD is my biggest issue. :rolleyes:

I only mentioned ASD because of the extra challenges in the workplace. I also have a chronic physical illness and that's the thing that makes working really hard. Do you know what it's like to be so fatigued that you can barely keep your eyes open by 10am? Or not be able to walk up a flight of stairs because your joints are so painful? To deal with the repeated humiliation of having to run to the bathroom in the middle of meetings so you can go and sh1t blood again? Have colleagues be nasty to you to the point of bullying because you need yet more time off work for surgery and they don't understand, and feel like you're slacking off because your disability is invisible?

Many people with my condition can't work at all, or can't work more than part time, because it can be so limiting and disabling. So please spare me the 'if I can do it, anyone can' ableist bullsh1t.

Without being too intrusive and considering the detail you went to above, why not just say what your condition is so the posters can understand?

Geuze

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Table 5.1

One adult <65 median NET wealth 73.7k.

Whats the difference between Net and Gross wealth in this context?

Here is some more data on median net wealth:

Age of Reference Person

Under 35 = 14.6k
35-44 = 94.2k
45-54 = 252.1k
55-64 = 293.2k
65+ = 256.0k

Padre_Pio

Geuze wrote: »

Net wealth is after liabilities are deducted.

Ok, I see the 73.7k in table 5.2. (not table 5.1)

That is the median net wealth of households made up of one adult, aged under 65.

It is NOT the median net wealth for all people aged under 65.

We're looking at different things so.

Geuze

Padre_Pio wrote: »

We're looking at different things so.

No, same data.

Note the two words: household composition.


73.7k is the median net wealth of households made up of one adult, who is aged under 65.


73.7k is not the median net wealth of all people aged under 65.

Geuze

For example, most of the people I know who live on their own, aged under 65, are low earners.

So it's not surprising that their net wealth is lower than households with two adults.



Married men earn more than single men.

Padre_Pio

Geuze wrote: »

No, same data.

Note the two words: household composition.


73.7k is the median net wealth of households made up of one adult, who is aged under 65.


73.7k is not the median net wealth of all people aged under 65.

Ah I get ya!

Geuze

For example, most of my friends (aged under 65) are not in the category you highlight, as they live in households with other people, their families.

JimmyVik

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

This is such a weird argument.

Building standards change and things move on. Those people in the 80s didn't feel hard done by by not having underfloor heating or a solar panels because they didn't really exist. It's not as if they were roughing it at the time - they were buying the kind of houses that were available.

You might as well say they were all spoiled and didn't know they were born because they had indoor bathrooms and didn't have to go out to the outside toilet like in the old days. Or that they had these fancy brick houses rather than a makeshift shack.

People looking to buy today are looking for a reasonable level of comfort for the times they live in, just like everyone in every decade.

I wouldnt expect you to understand it.

Ya kinda had to be there

JimmyVik

I think a lot of people these days are under the impression it was always easy to buy a house.
The only time its been easy to buy a house was from about mid to late 1990s to late 2000s.

mariaalice

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think a lot of people these days are under the impression it was always easy to buy a house.
The only time its been easy to buy a house was from about mid to late 1990s to late 2000s.

Depends on your definition of easy, despite what some are saying here there were always grants of one sort or another, council mortgages, housing associations which build affordable housing https://www.rte.ie/archives/2018/0322/949376-housing-cooperatives/ that is an example.

However, unemployment was huge in the 1980s so even having a job that paid enough to get a mortgage was an issue, plus how many single people were buying a house in the 1970s and 1980s.

ELM327

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

How cute you think ASD is my biggest issue. :rolleyes:

I only mentioned ASD because of the extra challenges in the workplace. I also have a chronic physical illness and that's the thing that makes working really hard. Do you know what it's like to be so fatigued that you can barely keep your eyes open by 10am? Or not be able to walk up a flight of stairs because your joints are so painful? To deal with the repeated humiliation of having to run to the bathroom in the middle of meetings so you can go and sh1t blood again? Have colleagues be nasty to you to the point of bullying because you need yet more time off work for surgery and they don't understand, and feel like you're slacking off because your disability is invisible?

Many people with my condition can't work at all, or can't work more than part time, because it can be so limiting and disabling. So please spare me the 'if I can do it, anyone can' ableist bullsh1t.

How cute your woe is me nonsense.
There's no justification like self pity I guess.

cnocbui

JimmyVik wrote: »

I think a lot of people these days are under the impression it was always easy to buy a house.
The only time its been easy to buy a house was from about mid to late 1990s to late 2000s.

That is when I bought my first house in Ireland and doesn't match my recollection, which was of huge demand, low availability and rapidly increasing prices. On one house, we were gazumped by I suspect a flipper, who snuck raround the back of the EA and offered cash while we and the EA waited for the vendor to respond to our offer. Then when we got to the settlement date on another property, the vendor claimed the wife had suddenly got sick and they would need another two weeks, and then it was another two days. Prices were lower, for sure, but the market was frothing madness.

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

That is when I bought my first house in Ireland and doesn't match my recollection.............

Folk who didn't buy in the period reckon it was easy as lots of folk did buy ......... the consensus is it was all 7 times your earnings and 110% mortgages

brisan

Shoden wrote: »

I actually question the narrative running through this thread that it's always been very hard to buy a house on a single income. Families in the past were very often single income until it became the norm that both parents worked.

You would buy with 2 incomes but once a child came along most became single income
Property prices will always rise to the max that people can afford
If the majority of buyers have 2 incomes that will reflect in the price
There is a reason why most new builds in Dublin are at the 400-450 k mark
Similar houses in the country nearly 200k less.
Are you telling me land and other costs are 200k less in wexford .Wicklow Kildare etc

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/ireland/new-homes/property-for-sale?maxprice=250000&minbeds=3

ELM327

+1
Simple supply and demand (within the constraints applied from the CBI rules)

almostover

fliball123 wrote: »

Well there is competition out there for most properties in good condition and in a desirable place to live so thats what your up against

My issue is that the competition is pushing people into making rash decisions with large sums of money. It's a big failure of policy that there is such frenzy about for property purchase and that the second hand stock offers very poor value for money.

I'll give an example, neither of my parents went to third level. My father left school at 16 even to get a trade. Both of them saved hard, just like my girlfriend and I and they were able to build a 4 bedroom detached bungalow in 1985 and pay off their mortgage in 18 years despite the interest rates being 18% on mortgages at the time. There is no way in hell that a welder and a nurse could build the same house and pay off the mortgage in the same timeframe now even with interest rates almost 10 times lower.

We're in big danger in this country of having a lost generation who wish to purchase their home but can't afford it. And I'm talking about degree qualified hard working young professionals here, if you're not lucky enough to be in that bracket then it's FUBAR for you. Also, if you're single then forget about it too as the median income is €35k which would get you a mortgage of €122k, enough to buy a derelict property or a hovel miles from your workplace where you will spend on your disposable income on fuel and your life commuting. Countless governments have made a complete balls of housing and health in this county.

almostover

almostover wrote: »

We're in big danger in this country of having a lost generation who wish to purchase their home but can't afford it. And I'm talking about degree qualified hard working young professionals here, if you're not lucky enough to be in that bracket then it's FUBAR for you.

i have bad news for you, we're well into the second generation of this already imo

and its not even degree, employed, qualified as far as i can tell

its whether mum and dad have the deposit for you, and whether or not you'll gamble on using your first time buyer/first ten years paying to live in a dodgy area or a kip

edit to add: the govt- successive govts- deciding to integrate social housing with the housing market and to stop building dedicated estates in sufficient numbers has had a huge effect on people buying for themselves.

that's on top of the boom/bust model that exists only to keep prices high- which is all that the govt cares about given the votes and financial stability so intrinsically tied up in it

getting lucky in a new build is the only show in town as far as i can tell for FTB

almostover

Deleted User wrote: »

i have bad news for you, we're well into the second generation of this already imo

and its not even degree, employed, qualified as far as i can tell

its whether mum and dad have the deposit for you, and whether or not you'll gamble on using your first time buyer/first ten years paying to live in a dodgy area or a kip

Yes unfortunately neither of us come from wealth. Both of us have had to work for everything we have ourselves. We're up against those who's family can give them a leg up. I don't begrudge them one bit, I hope to be able to do the same in the future for whatever children I do end up having.

almostover

almostover wrote: »

We're up against those who's family can give them a leg up. I don't begrudge them one bit

im not gonna lie to ya

i begrudge them a little bit. just a tiny one.

fliball123

almostover wrote: »

My issue is that the competition is pushing people into making rash decisions with large sums of money. It's a big failure of policy that there is such frenzy about for property purchase and that the second hand stock offers very poor value for money.

I'll give an example, neither of my parents went to third level. My father left school at 16 even to get a trade. Both of them saved hard, just like my girlfriend and I and they were able to build a 4 bedroom detached bungalow in 1985 and pay off their mortgage in 18 years despite the interest rates being 18% on mortgages at the time. There is no way in hell that a welder and a nurse could build the same house and pay off the mortgage in the same timeframe now even with interest rates almost 10 times lower.

We're in big danger in this country of having a lost generation who wish to purchase their home but can't afford it. And I'm talking about degree qualified hard working young professionals here, if you're not lucky enough to be in that bracket then it's FUBAR for you. Also, if you're single then forget about it too as the median income is €35k which would get you a mortgage of €122k, enough to buy a derelict property or a hovel miles from your workplace where you will spend on your disposable income on fuel and your life commuting. Countless governments have made a complete balls of housing and health in this county.

Your leaving out serious comparisons there. How many new iphones upgrades would your parents of got, how many foreign holidays would they have went on a year, what kind of car did he drive and how often did he upgrade it. The problem is this generation most people want it and want it now the generation like your dad's would of saved their holes off fore fitting the likes of sky sports and other luxuries to get a deposit up they would of started off in the hovel your talking about and they would of done one room up at a time. Is it more expensive to build now ??, yes it is, but that's pretty much the same as almost every other commodity and service in the country. I would also hazard a guess that you and your partner would be earning a hell of a lot more then he did when combined. If your looking to buy a place by yourself that hovel might not be a bad idea with the new world of working from home. if your serious about buying your going to have to show the color of your money but it is all refundable i don't understand the hesitation. They cant just run off with it and as another poster pointed out it gives you the freedom to ask the questions you want to ask.

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Your leaving out serious comparisons there. How many new iphones upgrades would you parents of got, how many foreign holidays would they have went on a year, what kind of car did he drive and how often did he upgrade it. The problem is this generation most people want it and want it now the generation like your dad'd would of saved their holes off fore fitting the likes of sky sports and other luxuries to get a deposit up and they would of done one room up at a time. Is it more expensive to build now ??, yes it is, but that's pretty much the same as almost every other commodity and service in the country. I would also hazard a guess that you and your partner would be earning a hell of a lot more then he did when combined. If your looking to buy a place by yourself that hovel might not be a bad idea with the new world of working from home. if your serious about buying your going to have to show the color of your money but it is all refundable i don't understand the hesitation. They cant just run off with it and as another poster pointed out it gives you the freedom to ask the questions you want to ask.

before you make such a response youd actually need to look at even a simple comparison of the cost of housing vs earnings for a buyer from a few decades ago vs today

that would simply blow that argument away

timmyntc

fliball123 wrote: »

Your leaving out serious comparisons there. How many new iphones upgrades would your parents of got, how many foreign holidays would they have went on a year, what kind of car did he drive and how often did he upgrade it. The problem is this generation most people want it and want it now the generation like your dad'd would of saved their holes off fore fitting the likes of sky sports and other luxuries to get a deposit up and they would of done one room up at a time. Is it more expensive to build now ??, yes it is, but that's pretty much the same as almost every other commodity and service in the country. I would also hazard a guess that you and your partner would be earning a hell of a lot more then he did when combined. If your looking to buy a place by yourself that hovel might not be a bad idea with the new world of working from home. if your serious about buying your going to have to show the color of your money but it is all refundable i don't understand the hesitation. They cant just run off with it and as another poster pointed out it gives you the freedom to ask the questions you want to ask.

Even if himself and girlfriend spent nothing at all and didnt even eat or pay rent - they would still not be able to get a mortgage covering the building of a 4 bed detached bungalow, and pay off the mortgage in under 20 years.
Absolutely no way

poker--addict

We could all just give up trying and the gov/council will give us a house, for pennies in comparison, owned by germans whch the council overpay for, and there is a good chance it will be in a better area too.

Depressing isnt it.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

before you make such a response youd actually need to look at even a simple comparison of the cost of housing vs earnings for a buyer from a few decades ago vs today

that would simply blow that argument away

I have conceded that the cost of building a house is higher now but you also have to concede that a job done 40 years ago would pay a lot more now than it did back then. You only have to look at the public sector as an example.

People make choices to have the latest gadgets, an upgrade in their car, sky, netflix and/or amazon to watch.

How many holidays have you been on in the last 5 years not including this one. I went on 1 holiday before I was 19 and that was to prestatyn in wales.

thinking back to my dad he didn't even drive he got the dart to work walking 20 minutes to it and then another 20 minutes to his job. We had basic channels the big 6 (rte 1,2 bbc 1,2 ITV and channel 4) , One TV do you know one family now who only own one TV?

You can say what you like the older generation looked after their pennies a lot better then this one and put up with things not been in tip top condition and ready to go.

Look I ain't saying its easy to get onto the ladder now but it wasn't back then either. Back then it was usually the man who went to work and the wife stayed at home, must of been bloody hard supporting a household with one wage coming in.