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Exit Strategy

Loafing Oaf

I think this question deserves a thread of its own, apologies if the mods don't agree.

So assuming the country moves to Level 5/lockdown over the next week, at what point and in what manner should we move out of that stage?

Is Zero Covid a realistic target, and if not are the sort of numbers we reached in early summer good enough to start easing restrictions?

Do we do a piecemeal relaxation of restrictions like we did then, assuming there is no significant rise in cases, until everything is opened up? Or do some things (like pubs?) have to stay closed until we get a vaccine?

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Away With The Fairies

Local Area Man wrote: »

I don't have an issue with periods of tighter restrictions to suppress the case load for hospitals, followed by an easing of restrictions and so forth. To me that's living with the virus.

I don't think we can expect a zero covid scenario given the internal border on the island and our membership of the EU.

It's not living with the virus if businesses have to shut. I think our government knows this and a second lockdown or severe restrictions will be disastrous and there's no going back. But then we can't have people getting sick, putting pressure on the hospitals where they can't cope and that having knock-on affects with other healthcare issues.

haskellgeek

eleventh wrote: »

One of Europe’s Leading Neurologists Claims Masks Are Dangerous & Explains Why

https://www.collective-evolution.com/2020/10/07/one-of-europes-leading-neurologists-claims-masks-are-dangerous-explains-why/

All of that piece is her opinion and no actual data or anything that anyone else can verify or refute.

Local Area Man

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

It's not living with the virus if businesses have to shut. I think our government knows this and a second lockdown or severe restrictions will be disastrous and there's no going back. But then we can't have people getting sick, putting pressure on the hospitals where they can't cope and that having knock-on affects with other healthcare issues.

I cannot fathom why we didn't build up our ICU capacity over the last 6 months, that to me has been a massive failure of government.

I think many business's have shouldered the blame for the increase in the virus but it seems that the majority of the cases are stemming from household visits.

ebbsy

El Sueño wrote: »

Unless there's some actual enforcement of restrictions there is no exit strategy other than a vaccine

And everyone would have to take it.

Loafing Oaf

Local Area Man wrote: »

I cannot fathom why we didn't build up our ICU capacity over the last 6 months, that to me has been a massive failure of government.
.

To me, that this is even an issue is a symptom of a more fundamental failure. Surely we should be looking to create a situation that the numbers who need intensive care due to covid are very low.

greenfield21

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

To me, that this is even an issue is a symptom of a more fundamental failure. Surely we should be looking to create a situation that the numbers who need intensive care due to covid are very low.

Wow, another excellent contribution. Where have you been the last nine months.

rob316

Rodin wrote: »

The short-term thinking from many is astounding.

We already had this thing beaten. But it was the coming out of lockdown was the issue. We don't have a strategy for that.

NZ aren't crying about closing/opening schools. They aren't worrying about pubs/restaurants being closed and jobs losses. They don't worry about longterm mental health issues with repeated lockdowns.

They took the big decision because Jacinda has foresight. And she's been proven right.

Nobody should leave an airport in this country without being quarantined for 2 weeks at their own expense.

It's a country in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't have a border of another country running through it, it's not part of a border free travel area with another 26 countries.

Honestly it's like talking to wall with people championing zero covid.

Hobgoblin11

its the winter coldness that forces people inside to gather indoors that spreads the virus, 6 weeks?, more like 6 months lockdown until March

eleventh

eleventh wrote: »

One of Europe’s Leading Neurologists Claims Masks Are Dangerous & Explains Why

https://www.collective-evolution.com/2020/10/07/one-of-europes-leading-neurologists-claims-masks-are-dangerous-explains-why/

haskellgeek wrote: »

All of that piece is her opinion and no actual data or anything that anyone else can verify or refute.

It's not just someone's opinion. She is one of the leading experts in the relevant fields that deal directly with brain and environment:

Dr Margareta Griesz-Brisson MD, PhD, is one of Europe's leading consultant neurologists who is based on Harley Street in London. She is the Medical Director of The London Neurology & Pain Clinic, where she currently sees patients.

She specialises in neurology, neuro-regeneration, neuroplasticity, neurotoxicology, environmental medicine and pain management. The uniqueness of this clinic is the working philosophy which is based exclusively on physiological methods based on support and biology, rather than on suppression and pharmacotherapy.

Dr Griesz-Brisson is a member of the American Academy of Neurology, European Federation of Neurological Societies, European Academy of Environmental Medicine, and many others. She also consistently serves as a medico-legal expert in the United Kingdom, Norway, Germany, Switzerland and the United States.

https://www.topdoctors.co.uk/doctor/margareta-griesz-brisson

Local Area Man

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

To me, that this is even an issue is a symptom of a more fundamental failure. Surely we should be looking to create a situation that the numbers who need intensive care due to covid are very low.

Can you keep the numbers low and prevent the economy from collapsing? I'm not so sure. I think the government should have foreseen that allowing society to return to "normality" would have resulted in the situation we find ourselves in now. I would have expected we would be better placed to deal with the increase in hospitalisations, which was always likely to happen.

haskellgeek

eleventh wrote: »

It's not just someone's opinion. She is one of the leading experts in the relevant fields that deal directly with brain and environment:
Dr Margareta Griesz-Brisson MD, PhD, is one of Europe's leading consultant neurologists who is based on Harley Street in London. She is the Medical Director of The London Neurology & Pain Clinic, where she currently sees patients.

She specialises in neurology, neuro-regeneration, neuroplasticity, neurotoxicology, environmental medicine and pain management. The uniqueness of this clinic is the working philosophy which is based exclusively on physiological methods based on support and biology, rather than on suppression and pharmacotherapy.

Dr Griesz-Brisson is a member of the American Academy of Neurology, European Federation of Neurological Societies, European Academy of Environmental Medicine, and many others. She also consistently serves as a medico-legal expert in the United Kingdom, Norway, Germany, Switzerland and the United States.
https://www.topdoctors.co.uk/doctor/margareta-griesz-brisson

So where is the paper who peer reviwed it? Litterally as useless as anyone else's opinion.

pgj2015

Local Area Man wrote: »

If a functional vaccine isn't developed, where does that leave New Zealand in the longer term? Isolated from the rest of the world indefinitely? I'd imagine their economy won't last long in that scenario.

Ireland was doing really well with the staycations,money was being spent here that never was before (Irish people who never holiday in Ireland had to) hotels, boat rentals, bars, shops etc did a great trade, imagine if we had no covid on the island and could go to football matches, gigs, nightclubs etc. we would have been ok for even a year until a vaccine or treatments enabled us to get back to normal.

eleventh

The rebreathing of our exhaled air will without a doubt create oxygen deficiency and a flooding of carbon dioxide. We know that the human brain is very sensitive to oxygen depravation. There are nerve cells for example in the hippocampus, that can’t be longer than 3 minutes without oxygen – they cannot survive. The acute warning symptoms are headaches, drowsiness, dizziness, issues in concentration, slowing down of the reaction time – reactions of the cognitive system.

However, when you have chronic oxygen depravation, all of those symptoms disappear, because you get used to it. But your efficiency will remain impaired and the undersupply of oxygen in your brain continues to progress.

We know that neurodegenerative diseases take years to decades to develop. If today you forget your phone number, the breakdown in your brain would have already started 20 or 30 years ago.

While you’re thinking, that you have gotten used to wearing your mask and rebreathing your own exhaled air, the degenerative processes in your brain are getting amplified as your oxygen deprivation continues

The second problem is that the nerve cells in your brain are unable to divide themselves normally. So in case our governments will generously allow as to get rid of the masks and go back to breathing oxygen freely again in a few months, the lost nerve cells will no longer be regenerated. What is gone is gone.

[..]I do not wear a mask, I need my brain to think. I want to have a clear head when I deal with my patients, and not be in a carbon dioxide induced anaesthesia.

[..]There is no unfounded medical exemption from face masks because oxygen deprivation is dangerous for every single brain. It must be the free decision of every human being whether they want to wear a mask that is absolutely ineffective to protect themselves from a virus.

For children and adolescents, masks are an absolute no-no. Children and adolescents have an extremely active and adaptive immune system and they need a constant interaction with the microbiome of the Earth. Their brain is also incredibly active, as it is has so much to learn. The child’s brain, or the youth’s brain is thirsting for oxygen. The more metabolically active the organ is, the more oxygen it requires. In children and adolescents every organ is metabolically active.

To deprive a child’s or an adolescent’s brain from oxygen, or to restrict it in any way, is not only dangerous to their health, it is absolutely criminal. Oxygen deficiency inhibits the development of the brain, and the damage that has taken place as a result CANNOT be reversed.

The child needs the brain to learn, and the brain needs oxygen to function. We don’t need a clinical study for that. This is simple, indisputable physiology. Conscious and purposely induced oxygen deficiency is an absolutely deliberate health hazard, and an absolute medical contraindication.

An absolute medical contraindication in medicine means that this drug, this therapy, this method or measure should not be used – is not allowed to be used. To coerce an entire population to use an absolute medical contraindication by force, there must be definite and serious reasons for this, and the reasons must be presented to competent interdisciplinary and independent bodies to be verified and authorised.

When in ten years, dementia is going to increase exponentially, and the younger generations couldn’t reach their god-given potential, it won’t help to say “we didn’t need the masks”.

[..]How can a veterinarian, a software distributer, a business man, an electrical car manufacturer and a physicist decided on matters regarding the health of the entire population? Please dear colleagues, we all have to wake up.

I know how damaging oxygen depravation is for the brain, cardiologist knows it for the heart, the pulmonologist knows it for the lungs. Oxygen deprivation damages every single organ.

Where are our health departments, our health insurance, our medical associations? It would have been their duty to be vehemently against the lockdown and to stop it and stop it from the very beginning.

Why do the medical boards give punishments to doctors who give people exemptions? Does the person or the doctor seriously have to prove that oxygen depravation harms people? What kind of medicine are our doctors and medical associations representing?

Who is responsible for this crime? The ones who want to enforce it? The ones who let it happen and play along, or the ones who don’t prevent it?[..]It’s not about masks, it’s not about viruses, it’s certainly not about your health. It is about much much more. I am not participating. I am not afraid.

[..]You can notice, they are already taking our air to breathe.

The imperative of the hour is personal responsibility.

We are responsible for what we think, not the media. We are responsible for what we do, not our superiors. We are responsible for our health, not the World Health Organisation. And we are responsible for what happens in our country, not the government.”

It's not an academic paper. The speaker of the above (who has several academic qualifications,as stated above) is sharing her professional opinion to reach the public.

Another link to the transcript:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/covid-...-abuse/5726059
Share widely please if you care about people's health.

[Deleted User]

eleventh wrote: »

One of Europe’s Leading Neurologists Claims Masks Are Dangerous & Explains Why

https://www.collective-evolution.com/2020/10/07/one-of-europes-leading-neurologists-claims-masks-are-dangerous-explains-why/

Looks like a legit news source :rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

eleventh wrote: »

The rebreathing of our exhaled air will without a doubt create oxygen deficiency and a flooding of carbon dioxide. We know that the human brain is very sensitive to oxygen depravation. There are nerve cells for example in the hippocampus, that can’t be longer than 3 minutes without oxygen – they cannot survive. The acute warning symptoms are headaches, drowsiness, dizziness, issues in concentration, slowing down of the reaction time – reactions of the cognitive system.

.

I won’t even read past the start where it’s back talking nonsense about masks reducing oxygen levels. This myth has been disproven multiple times, not that it even needed to be as it’s obviously nonsense.

People wear masks all day long for decades in their jobs and you didn’t hear them suffering from lack of oxygen.

Keep this rubbish to Facebook where it’s fake news filter will flag it as such and no one will have to read it.

Rodin

Multipass wrote: »

What world are you living in? We had nothing beaten, we hid away for a while, you can’t stay locked down forever. It was always going to spike afterwards, remember ‘flattening the curve’?

We won't need to stay locked down forever.
That's the point.

Rodin

rob316 wrote: »

It's a country in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't have a border of another country running through it, it's not part of a border free travel area with another 26 countries.

Honestly it's like talking to wall with people championing zero covid.

The northerners will get on board.
Already precedent within the UK where Wales is banning people from certain parts of England.

Rodin

Hobgoblin11 wrote: »

its the winter coldness that forces people inside to gather indoors that spreads the virus, 6 weeks?, more like 6 months lockdown until March

The virus is only spread if someone has it.

I think some people believe it emerges spontaneously once a group of people gather in an enclosed space.

Rodin

rob316 wrote: »

It's a country in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't have a border of another country running through it, it's not part of a border free travel area with another 26 countries.

Honestly it's like talking to wall with people championing zero covid.

Border free travel area with 26 countries?
There's a big bloody pond seperating it from every other EU country!

Rodin

Local Area Man wrote: »

If a functional vaccine isn't developed, where does that leave New Zealand in the longer term? Isolated from the rest of the world indefinitely? I'd imagine their economy won't last long in that scenario.

Whereas we, instead of collecting taxes are just putting it all on the social welfare tab. All this spending will have to be reclaimed at some point.

Short term pain is required now for long-term gain.

wanderer 22

eleventh wrote: »

One of Europe’s Leading Neurologists Claims Masks Are Dangerous & Explains Why

https://www.collective-evolution.com/2020/10/07/one-of-europes-leading-neurologists-claims-masks-are-dangerous-explains-why/

For one of Europe's leading neurologists it's odd she has written only one peer-reviewed paper (and that from 14 years ago and has never been cited).

https://www.scopus.com/record/display.uri?eid=2-s2.0-33749256644&origin=resultslist

eleventh

Erick Sweet Gourd wrote: »

I won’t even read past the start ...

No-one asked you to. The post is for people interested in people's health.

Loafing Oaf

Rodin wrote: »

We won't need to stay locked down forever.
That's the point.

Well nothing is forever. But I fear some aspects of Irish society may need to stay shuttered until we get an effective vaccine.

Hobgoblin11

Rodin wrote: »

The virus is only spread if someone has it.

I think some people believe it emerges spontaneously once a group of people gather in an enclosed space.

the virus is in the community, you may have once believed it just arrives by osmosis, we didn't

GazzaL

Local Area Man wrote: »

I cannot fathom why we didn't build up our ICU capacity over the last 6 months, that to me has been a massive failure of government.

I think many business's have shouldered the blame for the increase in the virus but it seems that the majority of the cases are stemming from household visits.

It's madness that they're attempting to force businesses to close when they are not the problem.

PommieBast

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I suppose the fundamental question I'm posing in this thread is whether it's possible to 'open things up' in such a way that covid cases won't spike, or will spike in a manageable way.

Things need to be opened up in a way that still keeps people in smallish circles, so although they are mixing, it is with the same people. For instance my nieces' nursery kept people in "pods" with a maximum of 3-4 families rather than allowing free-for-all mixing. Maybe restrictions like requiring people who do not live or work in Dublin city centre to show proof that they have been doing essential shopping.

[Deleted User]

eleventh wrote: »

No-one asked you to. The post is for people interested in people's health.

It’s absolute nonsense from start to finish, absolute fake made up rubbish that shouldn’t be allowed to be circulated as some fools might believe it.

GT89

rahmalec wrote: »

I say go for zero COVID. At least then I will be able to do my job (events industry).

Alternatively remove all restrictions let the kung flu loose and you'll go to work without issue

Away With The Fairies

GT89 wrote: »

Alternatively remove all restrictions let the kung flu loose and you'll go to work without issue

Trump, is that you?

GT89

Away With The Fairies wrote: »

Trump, is that you?

He's gonna win big