Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Lillyfae

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

It’s the fecking 10th of September. DES ‘are’ to issue. Meaning they haven’t yet. Why not? It’s a bit fecking late tbh!

To be honest it doesn't seem that different from the guidelines that are already in place. If there are schools arranging Christmas concerts for parents they really shouldn't be, and this might need to be reemphasized to them.

khalessi

SusanC10 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/no-choirs-no-indoor-music-no-parents-schools-get-advice-on-celebrating-christmas-1.4432776

Does anyone have the link to this advice for Schools ?
I can't seem to find it on the DES website.

https://t.co/WTNpXr0LRO?amp=1

THink this is it

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Well we've been told often enough in this country that schools and education is an essential service. Before anyone jumps on me I do think we are essential but we are o on called that depending in the narrative that is being espoused in that day.

I have no issue with being essential or anything else. My point was that situation in Germany is significantly worse and importantly not getting better with their lockdown lite restrictions so they have to act. It's not charity on part of Merkel but necessity. We are not there.

Lillyfae

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

It was suggested about a month ago in this country but shot down.

If it was really wanted, then it could have been taken into consideration when planning the school year- days can be moved around here and there. If it was already in the planning in September noone would have had any issues with it.

Boggles

JimmyVik wrote: »

Ive said it before in this thread. I know several people who have said if its safe for 30 kids to sit in a room all day every day, its safe to bring those kids anywhere else.

I know.

It's the main reason I have the problem with the manufactured narrative.

Boggles

meeeeh wrote: »

I have no issue with being essential or anything else. My point was that situation in Germany is significantly worse and importantly not getting better with their lockdown lite restrictions so they have to act. It's not charity on part of Merkel but necessity. We are not there.

The term "worse" is relative.

Countries like Germany can afford to be "worse".

Or are we forgetting they were processing some of our tests and taking in very ill patients from other countries.

Rule of thumb, if Germany are doing it, it's probably a sound idea, especially Merkel as she is a scientist as well as a leader.

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

If it was really wanted, then it could have been taken into consideration when planning the school year- days can be moved around here and there. If it was already in the planning in September noone would have had any issues with it.

Did Germany plan it 3 months ago, or did they change plans accordingly having seen the writing on the wall?

Lillyfae

Stateofyou wrote: »

Did Germany plan it 3 months ago, or did they change plans accordingly having seen the writing on the wall?

But the writing is on the wall there. NPHET haven't even got the whiteboard markers out yet.

meeeeh

the kelt wrote: »

Perhaps make the teachers go into the schools anyway so they dont get a day off might make it a bit more palatable for you and others?

That's not even worth a serious reply. Stop with the victimhood. Schools don't operate in isolation from the rest of society. Weather teachers are in school is irrelevant from the logistics point of view but where kids are is very much relevant for parents who need to work.

I'm sure people would be delighted if I said sorry wages will be after Christmas because I have to mind kids at home.

Boggles

Lillyfae wrote: »

But the writing is on the wall there. NPHET haven't even got the whiteboard markers out yet.

Of course they have, the goal was to get the level of the virus down to 50 a day.

It was always inspirational folly TBF, given schools were open at capacity.

meeeeh

Boggles wrote: »

The term "worse" is relative.

Countries like Germany can afford to be "worse".

Or are we forgetting they were processing some of our tests and taking in very ill patients from other countries.

Rule of thumb, if Germany are doing it, it's probably a sound idea, especially Merkel as she is a scientist as well as a leader.

Did you actually look at German numbers.

There were 568 fatalities in the 24 hours through Wednesday morning, taking the total to 20,002, according to data from Johns Hopkins University. That exceeded the previous high of 510 in mid-April.

Infections have also jumped, despite a partial shutdown that closed bars, gyms and cinemas but allowed schools and other business to continue operating. New coronavirus cases rose by 29,263, the second highest level since the pandemic began. The latest incidence rate stands at 149 infections per 100,000 people over the past seven days, nearly three times the level that the Chancellor Angela Merkel’s government has determined to be manageable.


The number of people dying from the virus has increased dramatically in recent weeks, with the daily toll regularly exceeding 200 since Nov. 11. Around 82% of all intensive care beds are occupied, and the number of severe Covid-19 patients has been at record levels for weeks.

Now tell me how relative are they in comparison to ours.

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

But the writing is on the wall there. NPHET haven't even got the whiteboard markers out yet.

Hasn't it already just been posted here, that government expect there to essentially be a shít show after Christmas?

I know people who are planning on taking their kids out early (and indeed keeping them off 1-2 weeks after). It's on everyone's mind as to how Christmas is going to be spent this year and with whom, and how.

DES/Minister of Education haven't shown any propensity for being proactive and forward thinking; in my opinion that mindset is still at play here.

Lillyfae

Stateofyou wrote: »

Hasn't it already just been posted here, that government expect there to essentially be a shít show after Christmas?

I know people who are planning on taking their kids out early (and indeed keeping them off 1-2 weeks after). It's on everyone's mind as to how Christmas is going to be spent this year and with whom, and how.

DES/Minister of Education haven't shown any propensity for being proactive and forward thinking; in my opinion that mindset is still at play here.

NPHET are expecting that. They don't have to think about the economy, or people's livelihoods, or education, or children's wellbeing. People shouldn't be thinking about how Christmas is going to be spent this year and with whom, and how, they should be protecting their vulnerable relatives by staying away.

Boggles

meeeeh wrote: »

Now tell me how relative are they in comparison to ours.

They have a health care system that is fit for purpose, we don't.

It's why we didn't open as much and as how long as they did.

If we did, our health service would have collapsed.

Edit: collapsed, fell down, overwhelmed, insert your favorite acceptable adjective.

the kelt

meeeeh wrote: »

That's not even worth a serious reply. Stop with the victimhood. Schools don't operate in isolation from the rest of society. Weather teachers are in school is irrelevant from the logistics point of view but where kids are is very much relevant for parents who need to work.

I'm sure people would be delighted if I said sorry wages will be after Christmas because I have to mind kids at home.

I have to work at home also, had to adjust previously, could do it again. A bit of disruption never hurt anyone

What did you do previously? Did people not get paid previously? What happens if you get sick and cant work or your kids get sick and you need to mind them?

Have you dismissed the other questions in the post to just focus on this one point to deflect?

Could it’s possibly save lives and curb numbers? Would it be worth that to do it?

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

NPHET are expecting that. They don't have to think about the economy, or people's livelihoods, or education, or children's wellbeing. People shouldn't be thinking about how Christmas is going to be spent this year and with whom, and how, they should be protecting their vulnerable relatives by staying away.

I didn't say NPHET... I said government, DES and Minister for Education.

People are thinking about it, though. People have family members living alone or that are already part of a support bubble. The government have outlined that from 18th of Dec you can get together with two other households. So to say that they should be staying away instead of proactively planning for what the government have allowed is completely ridiculous.

Boggles

Boggles wrote: »

The term "worse" is relative.

Countries like Germany can afford to be "worse".

Or are we forgetting they were processing some of our tests and taking in very ill patients from other countries.

Rule of thumb, if Germany are doing it, it's probably a sound idea, especially Merkel as she is a scientist as well as a leader.

Germany currently have 5 times our death rate.
Merkel is a good leader, irrespective of background, but other countries could just as easily look at our politicians and our current numbers and conclude that a Teacher and Medical Doctor obviously know the best way to run schools and they should be following our example

wirelessdude01

meeeeh wrote: »

I'm sure people would be delighted if I said sorry wages will be after Christmas because I have to mind kids at home.

If you got knocked down in the morning and couldn't go to work would the wages still be paid?

When I worked in a massive multinational a very good and sensible director once said to me that everyone is dispensable and replaceable. This was said with regards to making sure that a proper work life balance was achieved. Stuck with me ever since.

Lillyfae

Stateofyou wrote: »

I didn't say NPHET... said government, DES and Minister for Education.

People are thinking about it, though. People have family members living alone or that are already part of a support bubble. The government have outlined that from 18th of Dec you can get together with two other households. So to say that they should be staying away instead of proactively planning for what the government have allowed is completely ridiculous.

It's a guideline, not a target. Personal responsibility is being emphasized on the part of the government. Where have DES and Minister for education said it's going to be a shítshow? On this thread??

JDD

When people say "closing early" how early do they mean?

If we were inviting the grandparents for christmas dinner, we would have taken the kids out of school on Thursday 17th. That would have given us a good seven day run up to Christmas Day - the vast majority of people who develop symptoms develop them within five days. Of course the kids may have caught it and no symptoms show up, but they are still infectious. Or the symptoms may have shown up on Stephens' Day or later. But we thought it was the most reasonable option, while ensuring the kids don't miss too much of school.

Anyone who is worried that their kids may transfer the virus on Christmas Day can opt to take their children out of school early. The school doesn't have to close for you to do this.

Some parents work out of the home still, and may not have the option to take their children out early. Some families have opted to have Christmas Day at home with just their own family, so there is no need to take the children out early. For those people the schools should stay open.

If teachers want schools to close early before Christmas Day, so that they can restrict their movements on the run up to Christmas Day, well that's a different story. If enough teachers in the school wanted that, they could have put pressure on their Principal to close the school on the 18th, and make up the days on the other side of the Christmas holiday or at Easter. It would have been open for each Principal to do that, if the teachers had approached the Principal on time - like at least two months ago. It's a bit late now looking for extra days to self isolate with two weeks to go and a load of parents that would have to make emergency childcare arrangements.

I also suspect that their union would not have liked them to do this, as they were trying to negotiate extra holidays where the time would not have had to be made up at the end of the school holidays or at Easter. It's too late now to try and change that unfortunately.

Boggles

Deleted User wrote: »

Germany currently have 5 times our death rate.
Merkel is a good leader, irrespective of background, but other countries could just as easily look at our politicians and our current numbers and conclude that a Teacher and Medical Doctor obviously know the best way to run schools and they should be following our example

I pretty sure we have a higher death rate overall than Germany. As crass as it sounds we can't really be declaring winners and losers in pandemic management until it's over.

But anyway.

Countries have to play to their strengths and more importantly their weakness, when it comes to a balance of overwhelming health care versus the economy.

Stateofyou

Lillyfae wrote: »

It's a guideline, not a target. Personal responsibility is being emphasized on the part of the government. Where have DES and Minister for education said it's going to be a shítshow? On this thread??

I used the term shít show, to paraphrase their acknowledgment/expectation that case numbers will increase and possibly by a lot - I know you're not living in this country so perhaps you aren't seeing this in the news. It was referred to in this thread already, today I think.

People still have personal responsibility, obviously. People will obviously still take precautions the best they can with covid measures we all know well at this stage and by.... yes.... taking children out from school early. But they will be visiting with their family and friends as allowed.

meeeeh

the kelt wrote: »

I have to work at home also, had to adjust previously, could do it again. A bit of disruption never hurt anyone

What did you do previously? Did people not get paid previously?

Have you dismissed the other questions in the post to just focus on this one point to deflect?

Could it’s possibly save lives and curb numbers? Would it be worth that to do it?

No in my opinion it wouldn't make any difference. However it is just opinion like yours and completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that among all recommendations Nphet made and government ignored and two extra days off were not on the list.

The reason I focused on just one point is because it was hysterical nonsense that has nothing to do with the situation people have to deal with. Not every argument can be dismissed with 'but everybody hates teachers'. It ignores valid concerns people have. It might not affect you but not everyone is like you.

As for my personal situation as it happens I have to be in work but as I said it's not an issue because kids would be with their grandmother. You can just as well take an example of butcher selling turkeys. Should they close two days early too?

Stateofyou

JDD wrote: »

When people say "closing early" how early do they mean?

If we were inviting the grandparents for christmas dinner, we would have taken the kids out of school on Thursday 17th. That would have given us a good seven day run up to Christmas Day - the vast majority of people who develop symptoms develop them within five days. Of course the kids may have caught it and no symptoms show up, but they are still infectious. Or the symptoms may have shown up on Stephens' Day or later. But we thought it was the most reasonable option, while ensuring the kids don't miss too much of school.

Anyone who is worried that their kids may transfer the virus on Christmas Day can opt to take their children out of school early. The school doesn't have to close for you to do this.

Some parents work out of the home still, and may not have the option to take their children out early. Some families have opted to have Christmas Day at home with just their own family, so there is no need to take the children out early. For those people the schools should stay open.

If teachers want schools to close early before Christmas Day, so that they can restrict their movements on the run up to Christmas Day, well that's a different story. If enough teachers in the school wanted that, they could have put pressure on their Principal to close the school on the 18th, and make up the days on the other side of the Christmas holiday or at Easter. It would have been open for each Principal to do that, if the teachers had approached the Principal on time - like at least two months ago. It's a bit late now looking for extra days to self isolate with two weeks to go and a load of parents that would have to make emergency childcare arrangements.

I also suspect that their union would not have liked them to do this, as they were trying to negotiate extra holidays where the time would not have had to be made up at the end of the school holidays or at Easter. It's too late now to try and change that unfortunately.

And what about teachers? They have families to go to and children of their own as well. Is that not also the point. Why would teachers organise through the union, as they can't do right in some eyes, ever. They would only be vilified. I have seen (and signed) a petition by parents to close schools early though. Doubt it will go anywhere.

SusanC10

We have decided to take our Kids out on the 18th. There are current cases in our sons school. Not in his Year that we know of. If cases do appear in his Year between now and the 18th then we will take him out earlier.
If we intended to meet with vulnerable or elderly people on the 25th, then they would have been taken out earlier.
I am a SAHM so easy for me but having talked about it with friends, lots who have 1 or both working from home are also taking kids out on the 17th or 18th depending on Christmas plans.

Lillyfae

Stateofyou wrote: »

I used the term shít show, to paraphrase their acknowledgment/expectation that case numbers will increase and possibly by a lot - I know you're not living in this country so perhaps you aren't seeing this in the news. It was referred to in this thread already, today I think.

People refer to many incorrect things in this thread so I don't accept that as any kind of reference. People quote things here without references very frequently- I've done it myself to my detriment!

Stateofyou

meeeeh wrote: »

No in my opinion it wouldn't make any difference. However it is just opinion like yours and completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that among all recommendations Nphet made and government ignored and two extra days off were not on the list.

The reason I focused on just one point is because it was hysterical nonsense that has nothing to do with the situation people have to deal with. Not every argument can be dismissed with 'but everybody hates teachers'. It ignores valid concerns people have. It might not affect you but not everyone is like you.

As for my personal situation as it happens I have to be in work but as I said it's not an issue because kids would be with their grandmother. You can just as well take an example of butcher selling turkeys. Should they close two days early too?

Are butchers spending 6 hours a day with 30+ people in a closed, most likely an unventilated space where proper social distancing is impossible?

HerrKuehn

Stateofyou wrote: »

And what about teachers? They have families to go to and children of their own as well. Is that not also the point. Why would teachers organise through the union, as they can't do right in some eyes, ever. They would only be vilified. I have seen (and signed) a petition by parents to close schools early though. Doubt it will go anywhere.

They are in exactly the same situation as anyone else who has to work until closer to Christmas in an environment where they come into contact with people surely? Parents who are not in that situation and can keep the kids home have the option to do so if they are meeting vulnerable family members.

Lillyfae

Stateofyou wrote: »

And what about teachers? They have families to go to and children of their own as well. Is that not also the point. Why would teachers organise through the union, as they can't do right in some eyes, ever. They would only be vilified. I have seen (and signed) a petition by parents to close schools early though. Doubt it will go anywhere.

If teachers are off then they don't have to worry about childcare but everyone else does. If teachers are not off then noone has to worry about childcare.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

If you got knocked down in the morning and couldn't go to work would the wages still be paid?

When I worked in a massive multinational a very good and sensible director once said to me that everyone is dispensable and replaceable. This was say with regards to making sure that a proper work life balance was achieved. Stuck with me ever since.

Unfortunately we are not massive multinational. One thing I'm proud of is that during all the **** of recession years we were not once late with paying employees. I was even processing wages after my waters broke and before I went to hospital to have my second child. It might not be the end of the world to be a little bit late but this is one thing that is extremely important to me in how we run our business.