Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Smacruairi

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The 14 day case rate has grown 2% in the past 7 days, and has fallen 5% in the last 3days. Looks like a peak to me

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1170216/

Associate Professor of Biochemistry at Trinity College Dublin Tomás Ryan has said the situation with Covid-19 has got worse since Sunday and despite two weeks of Level 3 restrictions in Dublin, we still have "what looks like exponential growth".

Mrsmum

I have to say I have no confidence at all in remote learning. Many children will do fine with it but imo a considerable number will not. The reasons they won't are more often than not nothing at all to do with teachers, who I believe will be doing their best, but because the school building controls lots of anti learning issues in kids lives. Also pupils are already behind where they should be. My son's LC maths teacher is giving them extra maths classes at lunchtime because they are so far behind. My best friend is a teacher in the US and they are teaching remotely where she lives but she tells me every teacher she knows is being paid by parents as home tutors. And even before Covid they had summer school there to allow kids catch up to certain standards. If we have to go to remote learning, so be it, but imo it falls far short of the real thing and we shouldn't be pretending it doesn't.

Smacruairi

Mrsmum wrote: »

I have to say I have no confidence at all in remote learning. Many children will do fine with it but imo a considerable number will not. The reasons they won't are more often than not nothing at all to do with teachers, who I believe will be doing their best, but because the school building controls lots of anti learning issues in kids lives. Also pupils are already behind where they should be. My son's LC maths teacher is giving them extra maths classes at lunchtime because they are so far behind. My best friend is a teacher in the US and they are teaching remotely where she lives but she tells me every teacher she knows is being paid by parents as home tutors. And even before Covid they had summer school there to allow kids catch up to certain standards. If we have to go to remote learning, so be it, but imo it falls far short of the real thing and we shouldn't be pretending it doesn't.

Agree with the thrust of this. And thus why teachers are so dismayed at the lack of a remote learning plan. By leaving things up to local arrangements you effectively abandon a certain cohort of students, while starting an arms race amongst others. This has the effect of both burning out teachers, and students, and building bad habits all around.

If the DES came out and said something even as simple as "secondary schools, if you have 3 classes a week, live stream teach one, use one to record a lesson and upload it, and use the last one for individual questions and homework" , it would go a long way to easing everyones mind. Why haven't they even done that? As teachers we are used to the disrespect from the DES, but parents should be livid that the govt is washing its hands of this

BonsaiKitten

Smacruairi wrote: »

Agree with the thrust of this. And thus why teachers are so dismayed at the lack of a remote learning plan. By leaving things up to local arrangements you effectively abandon a certain cohort of students, while starting an arms race amongst others. This has the effect of both burning out teachers, and students, and building bad habits all around.

If the DES came out and said something even as simple as "secondary schools, if you have 3 classes a week, live stream teach one, use one to record a lesson and upload it, and use the last one for individual questions and homework" , it would go a long way to easing everyones mind. Why haven't they even done that? As teachers we are used to the disrespect from the DES, but parents should be livid that the govt is washing its hands of this

This is exactly it. I don't see any teachers saying that remote learning is better than in-person. Kids certainly can learn in such a setup but it's not the ideal.

But that's not the point - if it has to happen, it has to happen and there should be a solid framework and supports put in place by the DES for such an event. The guidelines they put out last night did neither. However, now they can say they ticked the box and any blame can be passed onto schools.

Any other teacher surprised that this document came out on a Thursday btw? What happened to the time honoured tradition of releasing things late on Friday when their office is closed and phone lines off?

lulublue22

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

My class of 9 year olds could follow and learn from Zoom lessons no bother last year. It can be done if it is set up.

On another note, this section of the article Khalessi posted really made me laugh:
"It builds on lessons learned during the emergency closure between March and June and puts a framework on how schools can best support students and families."

Eh, what lessons and framework would those be exactly? Another case of the Department saying sort yerselves out to schools? They had months to put something together and this is what we got :pac:

Just in relation to Zoom / online learning for primary school - There are significant socio- economic factors at play. I take from your posts that you teach in a fairly middle class school. Where issues such as access to ICT and support to access online learning isn’t an issue at all. My school’s context would be very very different and it was reflected in engagement with the online learning last year. We had a significant lack of engagement across the school despite staff physically dropping school ICT to individual pupils homes , posting out work ringing parents etc. Even my class who where very good come June engagement was brutal. I think a full return to online learning will continue to perpetuate inequality in educational provision and adversely affect those who need it the most. I would be in favour of a system that would allow vulnerable / at risk students to go to school and provide online remote learning for all others outside that group. I don’t think we have the resources to allow parents to chose which option they prefer but I do think we could with a bit of planning have a system where DEIS / special schools and perhaps children of frontline staff attend school.

wirelessdude01

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Any other teacher surprised that this document came out on a Thursday btw? What happened to the time honoured tradition of releasing things late on Friday when their office is closed and phone lines off?

This is the part that got my attention yesterday. Why is it being released the week after NPHET recommended level 5? As above, why rush it out on a Thursday when their traditional day and time is a Friday at approximately 5pm? I'm wondering if they are preempting what we all fear. I know our principal talked to us all yesterday about the chances of a 6 week shutdown and to start thinking about how we would individually approach it.

SusanC10

Personally, I feel we are in a very lucky position that if the schools closed in the morning that educationally our Kids would be fine.
Neither is in a crucial year.
The Secondary School had a good online set up in March - June and we don't feel that our son has fallen behind at all.
The Primary did well but less so. However our daughter's Teacher this year is excellent and has had them set up on Google Classroom since Week 1 with all homework online including spellings, maths etc again since Week 1.

We are also lucky that I did not go back to work as planned in 2020 and am SAM and my Husband is WFH although very busy.
Although we are not Teachers, we both have PostGrad level qualifications in very different fields and speak (albeit not fluently) the language our son is studying at Secondary so we can comfortably help with the school work.
Both kids would be good to work independently too.

But I am very aware that we are very fortunate and that there are a lot of kids out there that would really struggle without school and have done so earlier this year. Also, all schools are not equal as shown by this thread and the previous one.

is_that_so

Smacruairi wrote: »

https://amp.rte.ie/amp/1170216/

Associate Professor of Biochemistry at Trinity College Dublin Tomás Ryan has said the situation with Covid-19 has got worse since Sunday and despite two weeks of Level 3 restrictions in Dublin, we still have "what looks like exponential growth".

He's a COVID zero zealot and a biochemist uniquely qualified to comment on epidemiology. Bit of a media darling though because he goes against the consensus.

irishblessing

is_that_so wrote: »

He's a COVID zero zealot and a biochemist uniquely qualified to comment on epidemiology. Bit of a media darling though because he goes against the consensus.

I heard many government politicians in the Dáil last night referring to the virus being in exponential growth now, including Stephen Donnelly. Quite a few gave the opinion that we'll be in level 5 lockdown soon anyway.

irishblessing

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This is the part that got my attention yesterday. Why is it being released the week after NPHET recommended level 5? As above, why rush it out on a Thursday when their traditional day and time is a Friday at approximately 5pm? I'm wondering if they are preempting what we all fear. I know our principal talked to us all yesterday about the chances of a 6 week shutdown and to start thinking about how we would individually approach it.

I think you're on the right track. We've been sent the logins and permissions now for our kids' school online platform.

Smacruairi

is_that_so wrote: »

He's a COVID zero zealot and a biochemist uniquely qualified to comment on epidemiology. Bit of a media darling though because he goes against the consensus.

I was told by a few on here that we had reached a peak, lockdown measures in Dublin were having a great impact etc. The official data, nphet recommendations, and other commentators opinions do not reflect that. Yet others see fit to insist thst schools persist as normal, the emperor has new clothes etc.

irishblessing

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This is the part that got my attention yesterday. Why is it being released the week after NPHET recommended level 5? As above, why rush it out on a Thursday when their traditional day and time is a Friday at approximately 5pm? I'm wondering if they are preempting what we all fear. I know our principal talked to us all yesterday about the chances of a 6 week shutdown and to start thinking about how we would individually approach it.

To add to my last response, I've just seen from the fb group (of over 80k members) that the media has now been joined up with teachers/principals and are about to go public. They're trying to get in front of it. You almost want to laugh, almost.

Icyseanfitz

irishblessing wrote: »

To add to my last response, I've just seen from the fb group (of over 80k members) that the media has now been joined up with teachers/principals and are about to go public. They're trying to get in front of it. You almost want to laugh, almost.

Fair play to them, about 2 months late. Also saw that post on the page and to be honest I'll believe it when i see it. Seeing more and more reports of an extended midterm (2 weeks), 1. 2 weeks is going to do nothing if they keep schools as is. 2. Get ready for the ****storm of vitriol coming as this will all be about lazy teachers.

wirelessdude01

irishblessing wrote: »

To add to my last response, I've just seen from the fb group (of over 80k members) that the media has now been joined up with teachers/principals and are about to go public. They're trying to get in front of it. You almost want to laugh, almost.

Saw that. Wonder who the journalist is?

Icyseanfitz

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Saw that. Wonder who the journalist is?

It will be the sun again :pac::D

khalessi

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

This is the part that got my attention yesterday. Why is it being released the week after NPHET recommended level 5? As above, why rush it out on a Thursday when their traditional day and time is a Friday at approximately 5pm? I'm wondering if they are preempting what we all fear. I know our principal talked to us all yesterday about the chances of a 6 week shutdown and to start thinking about how we would individually approach it.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/schools-to-close-for-longer-at-mid-term-break-to-try-curb-covid-19-39604165.html

You called it.

Get the online classrooms ready.

Boggles

is_that_so wrote: »

He's a COVID zero zealot and a biochemist uniquely qualified to comment on epidemiology. Bit of a media darling though because he goes against the consensus.

He seems to be on par with NPHET's consensus.

khalessi

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

It will be the sun again :pac::D

At least Damien got people talking.

The Sun was the only paper in June looking at the number of children with Covid and it is not a paper I like.

Icyseanfitz

khalessi wrote: »

At least Damien got people talking.

The Sun was the only paper in June looking at the number of children with Covid and it is not a paper I like.

I 100% agree, usually hate the sun, but that article was well written and badly needed, well done Damien

irishblessing

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Fair play to them, about 2 months late. Also saw that post on the page and to be honest I'll believe it when i see it. Seeing more and more reports of an extended midterm (2 weeks), 1. 2 weeks is going to do nothing if they keep schools as is. 2. Get ready for the ****storm of vitriol coming as this will all be about lazy teachers.

I think a very critical article is about to land them in it...

They also mentioned an extended midterm break in the Dáil last night, so I think there's some teeth to it. Our children are going to be schooled from home anyway. All the commenters saying schools should stay open will now realise they can't and it was always going to go this way - we should have had a hybrid remote learning plan from the start. That's more supportive and conducive to better education than this shít show.
It's absolutely ridiculous that DES couldn't work on recommending a platform, rolling out training and providing resources and funding. Pure ineptitude- those people should not be in those roles if they are unwilling to rise to the challenge. Nothing to do with teachers so they won't get away with it though no doubt a few will try.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Saw that. Wonder who the journalist is?

I wonder!!

is_that_so

Boggles wrote: »

He seems to be on par with NPHET's consensus.

I don't find him a useful commentator on all of this, not because of what he does or doesn't know but because of his agenda.

wirelessdude01

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

It will be the sun again :pac::D

Hopefully not.

Boggles

is_that_so wrote: »

I don't find him a useful commentator on all of this, not because of what he does or doesn't know but because of his agenda.

I never heard of him TBH.

But everyone has an agenda.

Apart from Irelands newest millionaire Luke O'Neill.

"Yeah, virus, terrible, Calvary is coming. - Now back to my book, you are addicted to your phone".

Icyseanfitz

irishblessing wrote: »

I think a very critical article is about to land them in it...

They also mentioned an extended midterm break in the Dáil last night, so I think there's some teeth to it. Our children are going to be schooled from home anyway. All the commenters saying schools should stay open will now realise they can't and it was always going to go this way - we should have had a hybrid remote learning plan from the start. That's more supportive and conducive to better education than this shít show.
It's absolutely ridiculous that DES couldn't work on recommending a platform, rolling out training and providing resources and funding. Pure ineptitude- those people should not be in those roles if they are unwilling to rise to the challenge. Nothing to do with teachers so they won't get away with it though no doubt a few will try.



I wonder!!

Yeah its a disaster, they will go remote again with the only actual difference being that schools have gotten a bit of forewarning that its happening. All the time the department had to put in place an actual plan for education other than pile them in as usual and hope for the best and this is what we have. Depressing.

irishblessing

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Yeah its a disaster, they will go remote again with the only actual difference being that schools have gotten a bit of forewarning that its happening. All the time the department had to put in place an actual plan for education other than pile them in as usual and hope for the best and this is what we have. Depressing.

We deserve better leaders.

BonsaiKitten

lulublue22 wrote: »

Just in relation to Zoom / online learning for primary school - There are significant socio- economic factors at play. I take from your posts that you teach in a fairly middle class school. Where issues such as access to ICT and support to access online learning isn’t an issue at all. My school’s context would be very very different and it was reflected in engagement with the online learning last year. We had a significant lack of engagement across the school despite staff physically dropping school ICT to individual pupils homes , posting out work ringing parents etc. Even my class who where very good come June engagement was brutal. I think a full return to online learning will continue to perpetuate inequality in educational provision and adversely affect those who need it the most. I would be in favour of a system that would allow vulnerable / at risk students to go to school and provide online remote learning for all others outside that group. I don’t think we have the resources to allow parents to chose which option they prefer but I do think we could with a bit of planning have a system where DEIS / special schools and perhaps children of frontline staff attend school.

That's very true and it's something I have talked about on here before. I also noticed that the guidelines said schools should loan devices to kids - how many devices are we talking about here and from what stockpile? I know a lot of schools where such devices are thin on the ground.

Doesn't change the fact that remote learning can work well - if you have the supports available as my school did - and with regard to that particular post, I was replying to someone who said their child can't remote learn as they are in 6th class with working parents. Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with parents in that situation. However my point was that my class, who were younger and had similar parents did manage to learn well online. With the odd problem here and there of course.

I would be in favour of vulnerable children being able to attend school too as long as it doesn't lead to teachers double jobbing. Although I'd wonder how many schools could open if Covid was rampant and staff out ill... hopefully we won't have to deal with these things in reality.

lulublue22

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

That's very true and it's something I have talked about on here before. I also noticed that the guidelines said schools should loan devices to kids - how many devices are we talking about here and from what stockpile? I know a lot of schools where such devices are thin on the ground.

Doesn't change the fact that remote learning can work well - if you have the supports available as my school did - and with regard to that particular post, I was replying to someone who said their child can't remote learn as they are in 6th class with working parents. Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with parents in that situation. However my point was that my class, who were younger and had similar parents did manage to learn well online. With the odd problem here and there of course.

I would be in favour of vulnerable children being able to attend school too as long as it doesn't lead to teachers double jobbing. Although I'd wonder how many schools could open if Covid was rampant and staff out ill... hopefully we won't have to deal with these things in reality.

I agree it can work well and I didn’t mean to imply that it was without issues or difficulties for parents and staff but there are a cohort of children who really need to be catered for if we are looking at closing schools. I think a hybrid situation could work but it would need to be very clear and no opting in or out for parents. If my school stayed open we would not be in a position to provide online learning as well unless extra staff were allocated to the school

jimmytwotimes 2013

If extending midterm by a week, it needs to be clearly agreed with unions if this week is to see online learning or will an extra week be added to end of school year to compensate.

Online learning still isn't just a case of having the will to do it. A lot of unresolved issues around online learning that won't be fixed anytime soon.

meeeeh

irishblessing wrote: »

I heard many government politicians in the Dáil last night referring to the virus being in exponential growth now, including Stephen Donnelly. Quite a few gave the opinion that we'll be in level 5 lockdown soon anyway.

Not in Dublin. They stated that reproductive rate in Dublin is 1 and the rest of the country is 1.5. So that argument is disingenuous if it implies measures in Dublin didn't work at all.

As for level 5 lockdown, we might be. However if it happens it will be more strict than in in vast majority of Europe, large parts with much higher numbers than Ireland. Instead on doubling up on masks and stopping congregating, increasing fines there is a group that likes to put in prison whole nation.

Icyseanfitz

meeeeh wrote: »

Not in Dublin. They stated that reproductive rate in Dublin is 1 and the rest of the country is 1.5. So that argument is disingenuous if it implies measures in Dublin didn't work at all.

As for level 5 lockdown, we might be. However if it happens it will be more strict than in in vast majority of Europe, large parts with much higher numbers than Ireland. Instead on doubling up on masks and stopping congregating, increasing fines there is a group that likes to put in prison whole nation.

Bit early to be saying Dublin worked, give it 2 more weeks.