Schools closed until February? (part 3)

khalessi

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/1007/1170104-schools-covid-19/

slowly starting to report on them

Smacruairi

First official case in a diff colleagues secondary school. Principal emailed all parents and teachers to inform them, and close contacts are contacted with more specific info. No teachers contacted by tracers, but in the realms of 29kids were.

Why aren't teachers being contacted as close contacts and they're in an enclosed space with confirmed cases???

khalessi

TheTorment wrote: »

Why aren't teachers being contacted as close contacts and they're in an enclosed space with confirmed cases???

Well I reckon one of the reasons it is because there arent enough subs. Our Min for Education and Josepha Madigan said there were plenty of subs and extra teachers and announced 1080 teachers which were for secondary only. THe 1080 works out at about 1.3 per school, not enough.

In primary they made a panel of subs. My school has 70+ teachers and is one of 16 schools with similar numbers, medium and large schools, who have 4 subs to cover all sick days or teacher absences due to testing or whatever. in all 16 schools. So that is about 1000 teachers with 4 subs covering sick days.

Another reason I reckon, is that they threw out the old roadmap of phased reopening of schools and reopened schools en masse in order to score an early goal of success and they cannot afford mass testing of teachers and students as it would put a shadow over their success reopening schools. Hence the fact that criteria for testing in schools is different to other sectors.

irishblessing

TheTorment wrote: »

Why aren't teachers being contacted as close contacts and they're in an enclosed space with confirmed cases???

They are close contacts by definition but teachers are sacrificed on the proverbial alter because it would cause major disruption of classrooms & schools across the country and it would all go títs up because there aren't enough subs and there is no national remote learning plan that kicks in. Nice.

is_that_so

TheTorment wrote: »

Why aren't teachers being contacted as close contacts and they're in an enclosed space with confirmed cases???

It's a HSE public health team call and done case by case.

If this is true and it can be proven, surely there would be legal cases for teachers to take if they became infected as a result?

Icyseanfitz

TheTorment wrote: »

If this is true and it can be proven, surely there would be legal cases for teachers to take if they became infected as a result?

the one thing the department of education and other government bodies are absolutely astoundingly good at, is covering their own arses at all times

is_that_so

TheTorment wrote: »

If this is true and it can be proven, surely there would be legal cases for teachers to take if they became infected as a result?

It is true, they keep repeating it and it's in writing here.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/5/publichealth/publichealthdepts/moh/covid-19-and-schools.html

You can't sue a virus anyway. They could have picked it up elsewhere.

khalessi

So after closing in March and reopening in September, the Deptartment of Education has released a document on remote learning tonight which basically says sort it out yourselves schools. They had 7 months to design a national framework and nothing. This document covers September to December and is issued in October.

So it seems what went before could repeat itself if parents who were unhappy dont make their views known to the schools.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/department-of-education-warns-primary-schools-to-have-contingency-plans-in-the-event-of-covid-19-related-closure-39602717.html

The Department of Education has told primary schools to ensure they have contingency plans to keep teaching and learning going in the event of Covid-19-related closure or pupils isolating at home.

New guidance to 3,200 primary schools sets out the sort of preparations required to ensure that pupils are supported in the event that some or all of them have to revert to distance learning.

A number of schools have already faced such challenges since the new term began and the Department’s advice includes examples of good practice drawn from those experiences.

The Guidance on Remote Learning in a Covid-19 Context was published today and similar advice is expected for post-primary schools. It is intended to cover the first term and will be updated in December.

It builds on lessons learned during the emergency closure between March and June and puts a framework on how schools can best support students and families. Among its messages is the importance of communications with parents.

The Department says schools need to plan for and be ready to support pupils’ learning in a number of possible scenarios which could occur during the 2020/21 school year.

“As the extent to which these scenarios may occur cannot be predicted, it is possible that individual pupils or groups of pupils and teachers may find that they are advised to self-isolate or restrict their movements on a number of occasions during the school year.

“This may lead to an accumulation of a significant number of days where pupils learn from home and/or teachers work from home. Therefore, it is crucial that all schools make every effort to enable teachers to support the continuation of pupils’ learning effectively during each possible scenario.

irishblessing

khalessi wrote: »

So after closing in March and reopening in September, the Deptartment of Education has released a document on remote learning tonight which basically says sort it out yourselves schools. They had 7 months to design a national framework and nothing. This document covers September to December and is issued in October.

So it seems what went before could repeat itself if parents who were unhappy dont make their views known to the schools.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/department-of-education-warns-primary-schools-to-have-contingency-plans-in-the-event-of-covid-19-related-closure-39602717.html

The Department of Education has told primary schools to ensure they have contingency plans to keep teaching and learning going in the event of Covid-19-related closure or pupils isolating at home.

New guidance to 3,200 primary schools sets out the sort of preparations required to ensure that pupils are supported in the event that some or all of them have to revert to distance learning.

A number of schools have already faced such challenges since the new term began and the Department’s advice includes examples of good practice drawn from those experiences.

The Guidance on Remote Learning in a Covid-19 Context was published today and similar advice is expected for post-primary schools. It is intended to cover the first term and will be updated in December.

It builds on lessons learned during the emergency closure between March and June and puts a framework on how schools can best support students and families. Among its messages is the importance of communications with parents.

The Department says schools need to plan for and be ready to support pupils’ learning in a number of possible scenarios which could occur during the 2020/21 school year.

“As the extent to which these scenarios may occur cannot be predicted, it is possible that individual pupils or groups of pupils and teachers may find that they are advised to self-isolate or restrict their movements on a number of occasions during the school year.

“This may lead to an accumulation of a significant number of days where pupils learn from home and/or teachers work from home. Therefore, it is crucial that all schools make every effort to enable teachers to support the continuation of pupils’ learning effectively during each possible scenario.

Jesus. Typed that out over a cuppa tea tonight did they? Great effort.

Kiwi in IE

irishblessing wrote: »

They are close contacts by definition but teachers are sacrificed on the proverbial alter because it would cause major disruption of classrooms & schools across the country and it would all go títs up because there aren't enough subs and there is no national remote learning plan that kicks in. Nice.

How is this position different from doctors, nurses, care assistants, Gardaí etc? Teachers are essential workers. Put on your PPE and get on with it like the rest of us do and a large percentage of the private sector wish they could. Teachers are not more special than other essential public servants sorry.

khalessi

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

How is this position different from doctors, nurses, care assistants, Gardaí etc? Teachers are essential workers. Put on your PPE and on with it like the rest of us do. Teachers are not more special than other essential public servants sorry.

Thank you for asking. We are not treated the same as other essential workers. And you are correct we are not more special we are the same and deserve to be treated the same.

Here is how we are different. This is a previous reply I wrote to a similar comment.

No not worse than a doctor or nurse in dealing with covid but worse in other ways. As a nurse I always knew hospitals had my back when it came to safety. I was provided with ppe as necessary and given guidance in how to deal with cross infection. In March nurses needed improved ppe and the first batches were flown into the country in April. We have transparency with hospitals reporting numbers in hopsital with Covid19.

Let us compare that with education.

As a teacher I dont feel the Department has my safety or that of my colleagues in mind at all. In schools, teachers are dealing with crowded classrooms with insufficient ventilation. Some staff such as SNAs are still struggling to have PPE supplied to them, many have had to buy their own. In school, I am washing tables and chairs between students every 25 minutes or so as they cannot do it themselves.

A close contact is someone within 2 metres for longer than 15 minutes mask or no mask. In teaching a teacher is not considered a close contact. I was isolated following a case and not considered a close contact despite having the student for an hour and we were sitting either side of a desk.

In a hospital setting, my sister came in contact with a covid positive Doctor last week as part of her work, she has been tested 3 times in last 6 days, all negative tg. In school, I have a teacher friend who discovered by accident there were 2 children who were covid positive in her class and she was not considered a close contact despite spending 5 1/2 hours in the same room as them and within 2 metres.

The numbers in schools are not being recorded publically due to GDPR, strange GDPR does not apply to hospitals. There should not be a problem with knowing the numbers, it should not be left to an FB site. Obviously with nearly 80,000 members parents are interested.

Children are being ignored as spreaders, the 15-24 year group has increased since September and this is being pinned on everything except schools.

Teachers are now considered frontline workers like nurses and doctors but without the safety measurements, the testing and tracking. When 30 teachers were found to be close contacts by the tracker app, HSE intervened to say it was a glitch, yet there is no problem checking multiple medical staff who came in contact with the covid +ve doctor. Why?

IN hospitals, staff are being offered the flu vaccine, teachers are not.


Regarding shop workers, numbers allowed in stores limited, shoppers wear masks, sanitiser and sd. In schools overcrowded, no masks in primary and sd impossible

mvl

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

How is this position different from doctors, nurses, care assistants, Gardaí etc? Teachers are essential workers. Put on your PPE and on with it like the rest of us do. Teachers are not more special than other essential public servants sorry.

teachers are essential workers that can also practice their jobs remotely. so why don't you compare them with ... all these ppl who can wfh today, because they have an adequate environment for remote work too. unlike teachers.
not to mention that not all healthcare staff is front line staff, these days I can only ring my GP !!!

khalessi

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

How is this position different from doctors, nurses, care assistants, Gardaí etc? Teachers are essential workers. Put on your PPE and get on with it like the rest of us do and a large percentage of the private sector wish they could. Teachers are not more special than other essential public servants sorry.

I would also add post 275 in reply to this.

Kiwi in IE

mvl wrote: »

teachers are essential workers that can also practice their jobs remotely. so why don't you compare them with ... all these ppl who can wfh today, because they have an adequate environment for remote work too. unlike teachers.
not to mention that not all healthcare staff is front line staff, these days I can only ring my GP !!!

No they can’t practice their jobs remotely. My 12 year old cannot be homeschooled I’m afraid as both his parents are nurses not teachers. We cannot homeschool while both are working full time, one on nights and one on days.

Kiwi in IE

khalessi wrote: »

Thank you for asking. We are not treated the same as other essential workers. And you are correct we are not more special we are the same and deserve to be treated the same.

Here is how we are different. This is a previous reply I wrote to a similar comment.

No not worse than a doctor or nurse in dealing with covid but worse in other ways. As a nurse I always knew hospitals had my back when it came to safety. I was provided with ppe as necessary and given guidance in how to deal with cross infection. In March nurses needed improved ppe and the first batches were flown into the country in April. We have transparency with hospitals reporting numbers in hopsital with Covid19.

Let us compare that with education.

As a teacher I dont feel the Department has my safety or that of my colleagues in mind at all. In schools, teachers are dealing with crowded classrooms with insufficient ventilation. Some staff such as SNAs are still struggling to have PPE supplied to them, many have had to buy their own. In school, I am washing tables and chairs between students every 25 minutes or so as they cannot do it themselves.

A close contact is someone within 2 metres for longer than 15 minutes mask or no mask. In teaching a teacher is not considered a close contact. I was isolated following a case and not considered a close contact despite having the student for an hour and we were sitting either side of a desk.

In a hospital setting, my sister came in contact with a covid positive Doctor last week as part of her work, she has been tested 3 times in last 6 days, all negative tg. In school, I have a teacher friend who discovered by accident there were 2 children who were covid positive in her class and she was not considered a close contact despite spending 5 1/2 hours in the same room as them and within 2 metres.

The numbers in schools are not being recorded publically due to GDPR, strange GDPR does not apply to hospitals. There should not be a problem with knowing the numbers, it should not be left to an FB site. Obviously with nearly 80,000 members parents are interested.

Children are being ignored as spreaders, the 15-24 year group has increased since September and this is being pinned on everything except schools.

Teachers are now considered frontline workers like nurses and doctors but without the safety measurements, the testing and tracking. When 30 teachers were found to be close contacts by the tracker app, HSE intervened to say it was a glitch, yet there is no problem checking multiple medical staff who came in contact with the covid +ve doctor. Why?

IN hospitals, staff are being offered the flu vaccine, teachers are not.


Regarding shop workers, numbers allowed in stores limited, shoppers wear masks, sanitiser and sd. In schools overcrowded, no masks in primary and sd impossible

OK, you make some good points. I didn’t realise that you were not being provided with the same safety measure as other essential workers. That is ridiculous and needs to be addressed ASAP.

iguana

I wonder if a situation more like the UK system in the spring/early summer would be an option? Schools were open for children of essential workers. Children who were deemed to have an at risk home life were also offered the opportunity to keep attending school. All other children were at home, so the numbers of children at school were low enough for safer distancing.

mvl

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

No they can’t practice their jobs remotely. My 12 year old cannot be homeschooled I’m afraid as both his parents are nurses not teachers. We cannot homeschool while both are working full time, one on nights and one on days.

ok. my 12 yo can follow zoom/teams classes no bother. i am not a teacher, so would not consider home schooling, but I find secondary school kids these days can adapt to remote teaching easier than some ppl think.

Kiwi in IE

mvl wrote: »

ok. my 12 yo can follow zoom/teams classes no bother. i am not a teacher, so would not consider home schooling, but I find secondary school kids these days can adapt to remote teaching easier than some ppl think.

He’s a primary school kid. In 6th class after having missed half of 5th and due to start secondary school next year.

khalessi

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It actually really needs to be addressed. As a nurse my colleagues and I often rant about schools, the teachers unions, the threat of closures etc. None of us have any idea I don’t think, that you are not being provided with proper safety measures. The media does not portray this only that teachers don’t want to work. The media has a lot to answer for at the moment in regard to polarising society and turning us against each other. I’m sorry for the initial rant an I fully believe the position you describe.

I can understand the rant, I know how difficult it is trying to manage day and night duty but I did it before I had children. I dont know how I would manage now.

irishblessing

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

No they can’t practice their jobs remotely. My 12 year old cannot be homeschooled I’m afraid as both his parents are nurses not teachers. We cannot homeschool while both are working full time, one on nights and one on days.

A hybrid remote learning plan would allow for parents to have choice. Full time home, full time in school, or part time in school/part time home. Families need choice. There will most likely come a time in the near future when your child will need to quarantine or his class/school will close and his school education will stop then or hopefully be attempted to continue remotely by school as was just announced tonight.


On another note... I just read that Varadkar is to raise the issue of blended learning with Norma Foley after TD Gary Gannon raised the issue today at leaders questions. Anyone else see this?

Kiwi in IE

khalessi wrote: »

Thank you for asking. We are not treated the same as other essential workers. And you are correct we are not more special we are the same and deserve to be treated the same.

Here is how we are different. This is a previous reply I wrote to a similar comment.

No not worse than a doctor or nurse in dealing with covid but worse in other ways. As a nurse I always knew hospitals had my back when it came to safety. I was provided with ppe as necessary and given guidance in how to deal with cross infection. In March nurses needed improved ppe and the first batches were flown into the country in April. We have transparency with hospitals reporting numbers in hopsital with Covid19.

Let us compare that with education.

As a teacher I dont feel the Department has my safety or that of my colleagues in mind at all. In schools, teachers are dealing with crowded classrooms with insufficient ventilation. Some staff such as SNAs are still struggling to have PPE supplied to them, many have had to buy their own. In school, I am washing tables and chairs between students every 25 minutes or so as they cannot do it themselves.

A close contact is someone within 2 metres for longer than 15 minutes mask or no mask. In teaching a teacher is not considered a close contact. I was isolated following a case and not considered a close contact despite having the student for an hour and we were sitting either side of a desk.

In a hospital setting, my sister came in contact with a covid positive Doctor last week as part of her work, she has been tested 3 times in last 6 days, all negative tg. In school, I have a teacher friend who discovered by accident there were 2 children who were covid positive in her class and she was not considered a close contact despite spending 5 1/2 hours in the same room as them and within 2 metres.

The numbers in schools are not being recorded publically due to GDPR, strange GDPR does not apply to hospitals. There should not be a problem with knowing the numbers, it should not be left to an FB site. Obviously with nearly 80,000 members parents are interested.

Children are being ignored as spreaders, the 15-24 year group has increased since September and this is being pinned on everything except schools.

Teachers are now considered frontline workers like nurses and doctors but without the safety measurements, the testing and tracking. When 30 teachers were found to be close contacts by the tracker app, HSE intervened to say it was a glitch, yet there is no problem checking multiple medical staff who came in contact with the covid +ve doctor. Why?

IN hospitals, staff are being offered the flu vaccine, teachers are not.


Regarding shop workers, numbers allowed in stores limited, shoppers wear masks, sanitiser and sd. In schools overcrowded, no masks in primary and sd impossible

It actually really needs to be addressed. As a nurse my colleagues and I often rant about schools, the teachers unions, the threat of closures etc. None of us have any idea I don’t think, that you are not being provided with proper safety measures. The media does not portray this only that teachers don’t want to work. The media has a lot to answer for at the moment in regard to polarising society and turning us against each other. I’m sorry for the initial rant an I fully believe the position you describe.

irishblessing

mvl wrote: »

ok. my 12 yo can follow zoom/teams classes no bother. i am not a teacher, so would not consider home schooling, but I find secondary school kids these days can adapt to remote teaching easier than some ppl think.

My friends and family with kids in the US ranging from Kindergarten to upper classes in high school are all remote learning just fine....

Kiwi in IE

irishblessing wrote: »

A hybrid remote learning plan would allow for parents to have choice. Full time home, full time in school, or part time in school/part time home. Families need choice. There will most likely come a time in the near future when your child will need to quarantine or his class/school will close and his school education will stop then or hopefully be attempted to continue remotely by school as was just announced tonight.

Yup, I like that plan, choice sounds good.

jrosen

Given NEPHETs latest Id imagine some paper pusher in the department quickly typed up some nonsense about remote learning. Its actually bananas.

If they cant provide adequate distance learning schools should close. Allow the school holidays to be used to bridge the gap while we have this peak and the weather is against us and then re-open when the days are better and some classes can take part outside.

Because nothing that was given to either of my kids last time round resembled anything like an education. I have a JC kid this year and there isn't a hope in hell ill sit by quietly while his education is being affected.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

Given NEPHETs latest Id imagine some paper pusher in the department quickly typed up some nonsense about remote learning. Its actually bananas.

If they cant provide adequate distance learning schools should close. Allow the school holidays to be used to bridge the gap while we have this peak and the weather is against us and then re-open when the days are better and some classes can take part outside.

Because nothing that was given to either of my kids last time round resembled anything like an education. I have a JC kid this year and there isn't a hope in hell ill sit by quietly while his education is being affected.

This is the issue, there was an uneven approach to education, some did very well, some ok, some appalling. The Dept had 7 months to address this, they could have used the seconded staff but instead issued a document throwing it back on schools to sort out.

I will be interested to hear what Min for Education has to say about a blended learning model.

jrosen

khalessi wrote: »

This is the issue, there was an uneven approach to education, some did very well, some ok, some appalling. The Dept had 7 months to address this, they could have used the seconded staff but instead a documet throwing it back on schools to sort out.

I will be interested to hear what Min for Education has to say about a blended learning model.

Its absolutely not acceptable. Its not fair to anyone. My sons teacher seems on the ball and im thankful but know thats not the case for all. My son told me today his teacher was absent for the second half of the day so he could go help another school with their IT.

khalessi

jrosen wrote: »

Its absolutely not acceptable. Its not fair to anyone. My sons teacher seems on the ball and im thankful but know thats not the case for all. My son told me today his teacher was absent for the second half of the day so he could go help another school with their IT.

Agreed, but I feel the Department should have stepped in to develop an infrastructure that could be dipped into by schools. They also could provide laptops to staff and students who need them for work. As it is in 6th class there are kids trying to use phones to complete work and this can only be mirrored in secondary. There should have been a link up with Dept of IT and Dept of Education to improve infrastructure and then have a framework or modules available for schools to use.

BonsaiKitten

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

He’s a primary school kid. In 6th class after having missed half of 5th and due to start secondary school next year.

My class of 9 year olds could follow and learn from Zoom lessons no bother last year. It can be done if it is set up.

On another note, this section of the article Khalessi posted really made me laugh:
"It builds on lessons learned during the emergency closure between March and June and puts a framework on how schools can best support students and families."

Eh, what lessons and framework would those be exactly? Another case of the Department saying sort yerselves out to schools? They had months to put something together and this is what we got :pac: