All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

PintOfView

pearcider wrote: »

Cases came down because the virus is clearly seasonal disappearing in the winter in the northern hemisphere and moving to the Southern Hemisphere. Lockdowns don’t work because they destroy jobs, mental health and risk fracturing civil society for no net gain.

- Yes, the virus is likely to be somewhat seasonal, and will spread faster when people congregate indoors, which will happen more in winter.
- I don't think the evidence supports you when you say that the virus moves hemisphere winter / summer.
What about Brazil, it's in the Southern hemisphere but has a huge surge right now, same as Europe!
The US had peaks last April, August, and December, so virus didn't disappear at any stage
So you appear to be wrong on that point!

pearcider wrote: »

They also encourage more virulent strains to emerge since they apply selection pressure on the virus. Furthermore places that have not locked down such as Japan and Sweden have no discernible difference in mortality or case numbers. Conversely countries with the most extreme lockdowns like Italy and Spain have performed poorly.

- Surely more mutations will happen the more people who get the virus, so how do lockdowns cause more virulent strains to appear?
In fact the opposite would seem to be the case, letting the virus infect everyone would be likely to cause more mutations.

- I don't know about Japan, but as regards Sweden:
Sweden has a population of 10.2m. It has had 12,798 covid deaths so far (=1,255 per m)
Denmark + Norway + Finland have a combined population of 16.7m. They have had 4,331 deaths so far (= 259 per m)
And this is with Sweden in effect having a half lockdown
(masks were recommended on public transport from Jan, social distancing is becoming more stringent, 20 people can attend a funeral, public gatherings limited to 8 people, etc)

Are you saying that Denmark, Norway, Finland would have had the same number of deaths without their lockdowns?

pearcider wrote: »

The virus spreads in family homes and hospitals. Lockdowns are simply idiotic making huge sacrifices for no benefit in the long run.

Are you saying the virus only spreads in homes & hospitals, and doesn't spread in bars, restaurants, parties, weddings, funerals, church, etc?

As regards no benefit in the long run, would a few thousand people being still alive not be a benefit?
If the vaccines get rolled out by the end of the Summer, won't we have saved a large number of people by locking down?

pearcider wrote: »

This whole charade is just another example of the incredibly poor calibre of politicians we have now in the world. Interfering busy bodies who are convinced that whatever they do they must do something. Anything! Just like the world economy must be bailed out, the virus must be eliminated. Never mind that they are making things orders of magnitude worse. It’s pure narcissism and nothing more. We cannot eliminate a virus without herd immunity end of story. You may as well try and stop the tide coming in. It never crosses the dull intellects of these socialist fools that their intervention is doing more harm than good. But that’s narcissism for ya.

Do you not think that most politicians are trying to do what they think is best in the situation?

Have you ever participated in a committee, or helped run an organisation?
I suspect not, because you don't seem to realise it's not as easy as making pronouncements from your arm chair!

As regards "dull intellects of these socialist fools". Firstly, what has 'socialist' got to do with anything?
And if you think your intellect is superior why don't you lay out details of what you think we should do, while minimising deaths!
(but please avoid re-using the points above that are demonstrably mistaken)

Dohnjoe

pearcider wrote: »

Cases came down because the virus is clearly seasonal disappearing in the winter in the northern hemisphere and moving to the Southern Hemisphere.

Wow, that's a new one

March/April 2020 was not winter. Cases came down in those months, globally, in the Northern and Southern hemisphere, because there was a global lockdown in those months.

When cases dropped significantly, the lockdown measures were relaxed (too much), and there was a resurgence in the virus.

The virus spreads among people, the closer people are, the easier it spreads. When they are further apart, it reduces the spread. This is not complex stuff, children can understand it.

Dohnjoe

pearcider wrote: »

The virus spreads in family homes and hospitals.

I missed this one, according to you the virus only spreads in family homes and hospitals?

ShatterAlan

robinph wrote: »

Nothing in what you have posted suggests any kind of pre-planning behind wanting to bring in restrictions. Just that in order to get out the other side of this pandemic some restrictions might hang around for a bit longer whilst levels reach a more manageable level.

What is the point of limiting economic activity? Why would a government want to have reduced activity in their population just so that they wear masks for a bit longer than initially hoped for?

That's what this discussion is about. You have softened your cough from temporary measures to ones that are going to last a bit longer.


How much longer? Or is "as long as it takes" your go-to reply?

That was the answer when Bush was asked how long the "War on Terra" was going to last, 20 years ago.


Bin Laden is dead and has been for years. Was not the operation to get him and try him or kill him and then go back to life as normal having punished this dastardly rogue for attacking America?
If he's now dead then why the ongoing presence in Afghanistan?


People posited that question 15, 20 years ago. And you can't answer it. They are asking the same question now and you are besmirching them.

Dohnjoe

ShatterAlan wrote: »

That's what this discussion is about. You have softened your cough from temporary measures to ones that are going to last a bit longer.


How much longer? Or is "as long as it takes" your go-to reply?

That was the answer when Bush was asked how long the "War on Terra" was going to last, 20 years ago.


Bin Laden is dead and has been for years. Was not the operation to get him and try him or kill him and then go back to life as normal having punished this dastardly rogue for attacking America?
If he's now dead then why the ongoing presence in Afghanistan?


People posited that question 15, 20 years ago. And you can't answer it. They are asking the same question now and you are besmirching them.

It's not what this discussion is about. This is about some unsupported conspiracy notion that the lockdown measures are for some ulterior purpose and as such are supposed to be permanent, both of which are, of course, complete nonsense.

The original poster believes that Covid is a ruse to secretly usher in global Communism.

pearcider

Fighting Tao wrote: »

How does that explain South American countries such as Brazil?

We know it’s seasonal there is numerous data online. It would be weird if it wasn’t seasonal.

pearcider

PintOfView wrote: »

- Yes, the virus is likely to be somewhat seasonal, and will spread faster when people congregate indoors, which will happen more in winter.
- I don't think the evidence supports you when you say that the virus moves hemisphere winter / summer.
What about Brazil, it's in the Southern hemisphere but has a huge surge right now, same as Europe!
The US had peaks last April, August, and December, so virus didn't disappear at any stage
So you appear to be wrong on that point!



- Surely more mutations will happen the more people who get the virus, so how do lockdowns cause more virulent strains to appear?
In fact the opposite would seem to be the case, letting the virus infect everyone would be likely to cause more mutations.

- I don't know about Japan, but as regards Sweden:
Sweden has a population of 10.2m. It has had 12,798 covid deaths so far (=1,255 per m)
Denmark + Norway + Finland have a combined population of 16.7m. They have had 4,331 deaths so far (= 259 per m)
And this is with Sweden in effect having a half lockdown
(masks were recommended on public transport from Jan, social distancing is becoming more stringent, 20 people can attend a funeral, public gatherings limited to 8 people, etc)

Are you saying that Denmark, Norway, Finland would have had the same number of deaths without their lockdowns?



Are you saying the virus only spreads in homes & hospitals, and doesn't spread in bars, restaurants, parties, weddings, funerals, church, etc?

As regards no benefit in the long run, would a few thousand people being still alive not be a benefit?
If the vaccines get rolled out by the end of the Summer, won't we have saved a large number of people by locking down?




Do you not think that most politicians are trying to do what they think is best in the situation?

Have you ever participated in a committee, or helped run an organisation?
I suspect not, because you don't seem to realise it's not as easy as making pronouncements from your arm chair!

As regards "dull intellects of these socialist fools". Firstly, what has 'socialist' got to do with anything?
And if you think your intellect is superior why don't you lay out details of what you think we should do, while minimising deaths!
(but please avoid re-using the points above that are demonstrably mistaken)

You’re the one stating there was no alternative lockdown I gave two. There are plenty others. Not to mention Spain and Italy with strict lockdowns did worse. In fact all the studies out of the US suggests that states that had no lockdown had the same results as states with lockdown except in the states with no lockdown there is far less unemployment. Ergo there will be a lot less deaths from suicide, drug addiction even car accidents.

And no a thousand extra people alive may not be a benefit if it’s costs a hundred thousand lives to buy us them. Lockdowns kill people and will continue to kill people long after they are called off. Lockdown is only a sane strategy if you’re to remain in lockdown indefinitely.

pearcider

And I’m not the one saying the virus spreads principally in homes and hospitals. That’s from the official figures. Most of the deaths happened in nursing homes too. Tell me how lockdown helped those poor souls.

arccosh

Just wanted to wade in on the Spanish argument...

It's true that the majority of Spain is in a severe lockdown, however, some municipals (notably Madrid) are not and functioning with minimal restrictions.

The rationale is so they don't banjax the economy completely....

guess where the majority of cases are traced back to, and is keeping the surrounding municipals case numbers high

pearcider

arccosh wrote: »

Just wanted to wade in on the Spanish argument...

It's true that the majority of Spain is in a severe lockdown, however, some municipals (notably Madrid) are not and functioning with minimal restrictions.

The rationale is so they don't banjax the economy completely....

guess where the majority of cases are traced back to, and is keeping the surrounding municipals case numbers high

Madrid would obviously have higher numbers that’s like saying Dublin has higher numbers here. Fact is their lockdown didn’t work. But who will count the lives lost in the economic devastation that will follow?

Dohnjoe

pearcider wrote: »

And I’m not the one saying the virus spreads principally in homes and hospitals. That’s from the official figures. Most of the deaths happened in nursing homes too. Tell me how lockdown helped those poor souls.

The virus spreads from one person to another, you do realise this right?

So whatever the season, whether you are in a hospital or a cinema, if you have it and you come into contact with someone else you can pass it to them. It's highly infectious, ergo we have measures to reduce that spread. It's amazing how many times the basics have to be explained thread, and that's not a coincidence.

EyesClosed

244 pages in on mobile... Still no covid measures which will be permanent... There is no conspiracy at all here

Dohnjoe

"It's seasonal"
"It doesn't exist"
"It does exist but it's exaggerated"
"It's the flu"
"It's real but man-made"
"It's spread by Big Pharma"

Interesting how a class of school-children could explain what's going on, but conspiracy theorists can't even decide what it is.

pearcider

EyesClosed wrote: »

244 pages in on mobile... Still no covid measures which will be permanent... There is no conspiracy at all here

Well that is clearly still up for debate but nice of you to chime in and try shut it down anyway. You’ll be cheered to know the mods don’t require any assistance in that regard.

Dohnjoe

pearcider wrote: »

Well that is clearly still up for debate but nice of you to chime in and try shut it down anyway. You’ll be cheered to know the mods don’t require any assistance in that regard.

No credible or coherent conspiracy has been presented, no one has given a plausible explanation as to why measures will be permanent. So there really isn't any debate.

EyesClosed

pearcider wrote: »

Well that is clearly still up for debate but nice of you to chime in and try shut it down anyway. You’ll be cheered to know the mods don’t require any assistance in that regard.

There has been literally no debate... Currently we are back at Sweden didn't lockdown?.. Which if anything proves lockdowns won't be permanent... Or Sweden somehow isn't part of the world wide plot?

pearcider

EyesClosed wrote: »

There has been literally no debate... Currently we are back at Sweden didn't lockdown?.. Which if anything proves lockdowns won't be permanent... Or Sweden somehow isn't part of the world wide plot?

Well there’s been thousands of posts so you’re simply wrong when you say there is “literally” no debate. But ignoring dissent is standard operating procedure for globalist apologists like you.

EyesClosed

pearcider wrote: »

Well there’s been thousands of posts so you’re simply wrong when you say there is “literally” no debate. But ignoring dissent is standard operating procedure for globalist apologists like you.

Yes thousands of posts... And not one measure that might be permanent... Can you simply name one?

pearcider

EyesClosed wrote: »

Yes thousands of posts... And not one measure that might be permanent... Can you simple name one?

Well clearly it’s too early to tell. But the signs are there for those who would see them. The free peoples of the planet increasingly concern themselves with trivial things. The free press is no more. Silicon Valley is malevolent towards dissent. The politicians are bought and paid for. The free nations are bankrupt, a communist superpower has arisen and nobody may dare question the technocrats.

Dohnjoe

pearcider wrote: »

Well clearly it’s too early to tell. But the signs are there for those who would see them. The free peoples of the planet increasingly concern themselves with trivial things. The free press is no more. Silicon Valley is malevolent towards dissent. The politicians are bought and paid for. The free nations are bankrupt, a communist superpower has arisen and nobody may dare oppose the technocrats.

It was "corporate-fascism" just a few pages ago.

EyesClosed

pearcider wrote: »

Well clearly it’s too early to tell. But the signs are there for those who would see them. The free peoples of the planet increasingly concern themselves with trivial things. The free press is no more. Silicon Valley is malevolent towards dissent. The politicians are bought and paid for. The free nations are bankrupt, a communist superpower has arisen and nobody may dare question the technocrats.

OK so no permanent covid rules?
So yea... No conspiracy

King Mob

pearcider wrote: »

Well clearly it’s too early to tell. But the signs are there for those who would see them.

What signs though?

What measures do you believe might be permanent? Why do you believe those measures would benefit the secret cabal you believe controls everything?

So far, the only measure that's been stated to be permanent according to your guys is mask wearing.
Do you agree with this? If so, why would this benefit anyone?

Sorry for asking you questions that would clarify your position. I know you believe that this kinda thing somehow "shuts down debate".

King Mob

buzzerxx wrote: »

Why not call them what they are traditionally called, conspiracy theorists? and why are you surprised to see many theorists here in a forum NAMED conspiracy theories?

Because there's a difference between the folks who will naively swallow stuff from the internet and the folks who produce false evidence and manipulated facts to feed to those people for profit or for other motivations.
I'm referring to the latter when I refer to "conspiracy mongers".
People who do things like filming at a hospital they know is actually busy and claiming that it's not are conspiracy mongers.
What term would you use for them?

buzzerxx wrote: »

I dont know ,thats why i posted it for debate.

Ok. So given that we've nothing to show that the video actually is being completely honest and does actually show a fair represention of the facts, we don't have to take it at all seriously.

buzzerxx wrote: »

Why dont you ask this fella that question first? I responded to @Fighting Tao , thats the relevance

Ok. And he was replying to a post who claimed that there was no visits allowed and that this was part of a governmental conspiracy for some reason.

We all agree that claim is false. Cool.

Timberrrrrrrr

EyesClosed wrote: »

Yes thousands of posts... And not one measure that might be permanent... Can you simply name one?

pearcider wrote: »

Well clearly it’s too early to tell. But the signs are there for those who would see them. The free peoples of the planet increasingly concern themselves with trivial things. The free press is no more. Silicon Valley is malevolent towards dissent. The politicians are bought and paid for. The free nations are bankrupt, a communist superpower has arisen and nobody may dare question the technocrats.

So that's a no?

pearcider

EyesClosed wrote: »

OK so no permanent covid rules?
So yea... No conspiracy

You said and I quote “there is literally no debate.” Clearly with thousands of posts there is in fact a debate. But you ignore that. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

GT89

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Interesting how a class of school-children could explain what's going on, but conspiracy theorists can't even decide what it is.

Because children's minds are like sponges they going to believe what they are taught by their parents and teachers their brains are not developed enough to independently think.

It's something parents of a particular side the argument will often bring out and say things like "well my 5 year old can wear a mask over their mouth and nose, amazing how some adults can't". Your 5 year old wears a mask because you either a) are telling them to do so or b) because they see mammy or daddy doing so they think they must also do so.

On the other hand if you taught your children that covid is a hoax they too will also explain that it's a hoax too. That's the way children work.

GT89

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Wow, that's a new one

March/April 2020 was not winter. Cases came down in those months, globally, in the Northern and Southern hemisphere, because there was a global lockdown in those months.

When cases dropped significantly, the lockdown measures were relaxed (too much), and there was a resurgence in the virus.

The virus spreads among people, the closer people are, the easier it spreads. When they are further apart, it reduces the spread. This is not complex stuff, children can understand it.

It is credible that covid may be seasonal. January is typically the month with highest cases of seasonal illnesses and was the month with highest covid cases, cases of seasonal illnesses tend to go up when schools go back especially around October and November covid cases went up in those months. Cases of seasonal illnesses go down dramatically in the months of June/July covid was virtually non existent then in Ireland.

We had a lockdown in November and cases went down yes I accept that but they did not go down to the extent they did in April/May 2020 and not to the level NPHET anticipated with level 5 restrictions.

King Mob

pearcider wrote: »

You said and I quote “there is literally no debate.” Clearly with thousands of posts there is in fact a debate. But you ignore that. Ignorance is bliss I guess.

Yes. When one side does nothing but dodge direct questions and refuses to even state their beliefs directly and clearly, then it's not a debate.

When one side constantly uses false information and ignorance of basic science and reason, it's also not really a debate.

So if you're interested in a debate, simply and without ranting off on tangents:
State what measure you think might be permanent.
State what you believe the benefit is for this for the people behind the conspiracy.

But as we've seen from the last nearly 200 posts, no conspiracy theorists seem able to do these two simple things.
I think it's because you guys can't even speculate what measures will be permanent as it doesn't make any logical sense for them to be permanent. You guys just don't want to admit this.

arccosh

pearcider wrote: »

Madrid would obviously have higher numbers that’s like saying Dublin has higher numbers here. Fact is their lockdown didn’t work. But who will count the lives lost in the economic devastation that will follow?

good work on missing the point completely .....

and quite the contrary about lockdown not working....

Spain, along with the UK are two of the main culprits in Europe where you have factual, measurable empirical evidence where you have

a) a population area during lockdown where cases and deaths reduced
b) a population area during no lockdown where cases and deaths increased

the key thing about Spain is that you have the majority of the country with heavy restrictions, then you have Madrid, with as you mentioned it's heavy population density. Madrid municipal, as mentioned previously, have chosen to have minimal restrictions so not to banjax the economy, to the detriment of their population and surrounding areas.... that's factual (and somewhat necessary in my eyes also.... just in case you think I'm jumping on the bandwagon berating you)..

But that is one of the key areas as to why Spain's cases are so high, large population dense area with minimal restrictions, hence negating your argument that "Spain is in lockdown", where that's not the case...

PintOfView

pearcider wrote: »

We know it’s seasonal there is numerous data online. It would be weird if it wasn’t seasonal.

Can you link to some of the numerous data that shows it's seasonal?

If it's seasonal why did the US have a peak in deaths in April, August, and December (their normal peak is December)?
https://public.tableau.com/views/COVID_excess_mort_withcauses_03172021/WeeklyExcessDeaths?:embed=y&:jsdebug=y&:toolbar=n&:tabs=n&:display_count=n&:origin=viz_share_link