All Covid-19 measures are permanent, don't be a boiling frog!

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What is your evidence that “the majority of people making up the numbers likely would not have died but for Covid.”?

I use smoking as an example. Do you agree that these are preventable deaths? But the government continue to licence and profit from the sale of a product responsible for 4 times as many annual deaths as Covid.

Lets leave the smoking, I can't catch smoking off you, and people have all the information they need to avoid dying of smoking.

Re evidence that most of the people making up the numbers would not have died but for covid,

See the following from HIQA (it's long - see graph on p15)
https://www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2020-07/Analysis-of-excess-all-cause-mortality-in-Ireland-during-the-COVID-19-epidemic_0.pdf

See the US CDC numbers of weekly deaths from all causes
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
(scroll down to the graph - there's a lot of text at the top)

What does that graph tell you?

SafeSurfer

EyesClosed wrote: »

OK and this idea is based on what? Nowhere has anyone said restrictions are around forever

Absolutely right.

They said they would last 4 weeks.

Last March.

rtron

Does anyone know if Guinness will reverse those god awful 440ml cans or still use the excuse there are no widgets cause of the corona virus when all this is said and done?

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

No. The current measures are primarily to stop our health systems becoming overwhelmed from a disease that is quite new - we managed to get cases to drop significantly in the summer with these measures, but we didn't persist and a second wave happened. We've been doing all this without vaccines, and once they rollout properly, then the threat to the national health systems should subside significantly, meaning we should be able to drop the tougher measures (lockdown)

The private hospitals requisitioned at huge cost in spring went largely unused for Covid patients.

Ireland’s health system was often under huge pressure long before Covid.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Absolutely right.

They said they would last 4 weeks.

Last March.

They aren't prophets, no one has a crystal ball, many thought that with the decline and figures that it would be practically gone by summer, likewise many warned there would be a second wave. It's a dynamic and fluid situation, which governments around the world are reacting to. Increases? more measures. Decreases? reduce measures.

A lot of points you are making are very similar to Covid denier talking points we've been seeing since last year.

SafeSurfer

rtron wrote: »

Does anyone know if Guinness will reverse those god awful 440ml cans or still use the excuse there are no widgets cause of the corona virus when all this is said and done?

Wine should come in 1 litre bottles for the duration of the pandemic also.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The private hospitals requisitioned at huge cost in spring went largely unused for Covid patients.

Ireland’s health system was often under huge pressure long before Covid.

Requisitioned as a precaution. Some countries built hospitals in record time. Money can be borrowed, lives can't, no one wants to have a situation where people are dying unable to get medical help.

I've noticed you aren't addressing any questions about the conspiracy you claim is happening..

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

They aren't prophets, no one has a crystal ball, many thought that with the decline and figures that it would be practically gone by summer, likewise many warned there would be a second wave. It's a dynamic and fluid situation, which governments around the world are reacting to. Increases? more measures. Decreases? reduce measures.

A lot of points you are making are very similar to Covid denier talking points we've been seeing since last year.

So in a couple of threads you are convinced Covid won’t be round forever on one hand and arguing that it’s a dynamic and fluid situation on the other.

I have read a lot about this virus and believe it is much more likely we will be dealing with it for the foreseeable future rather than believing it will be “gone by summer” or “gone by September”.

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The private hospitals requisitioned at huge cost in spring went largely unused for Covid patients

Isn't that a good thing, that the lockdown worked so we didn't need to use them. It was still prudent to requisition them in view of what was happening in Italy at the time.

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Ireland’s health system was often under huge pressure long before Covid.

Not sure what point you're making there

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Requisitioned as a precaution. Some countries built hospitals in record time. Money can be borrowed, lives can't, no one wants to have a situation where people are dying unable to get medical help.

I've noticed you aren't addressing any questions about the conspiracy you claim is happening..

The conspiracy of over reporting of deaths which I linked to or the notion that every media outlet is feeding off Covid fear mongering. The doomsday clock has even been moved!
John Kerry is now insisting emissions must be halved by 2030. Do you believe that will happen without some extraordinary new powers being required by central governments? Exactly what commentators like Ben Bernanke are forecasting.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

So in a couple of threads you are convinced Covid won’t be round forever on one hand and arguing that it’s a dynamic and fluid situation on the other.

I can only assume you are misunderstanding

Covid could be around forever (like e.g. seasonal flu), that doesn't automatically mean it will be the same threat as it is now (to overwhelm national health services)

The situation is dynamic. Measures are a reaction to that situation, which is why measures are also dynamic. Cases go up? measures increased. Cases go down? measures decrease. It's all relative, and quite fluid.

I have read a lot about this virus and believe it is much more likely we will be dealing with it for the foreseeable future rather than believing it will be “gone by summer” or “gone by September”.

Again, another misunderstanding. Gone is not literal, just means not the same threat as it is right now.

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The conspiracy of over reporting of deaths which I linked to or the notion that every media outlet is feeding off Covid fear mongering. The doomsday clock has even been moved!
John Kerry is now insisting emissions must be halved by 2030. Do you believe that will happen without some extraordinary new powers being required by central governments? Exactly what commentators like Ben Bernanke are forecasting.

Sorry but am still waiting for an answer to any of the questions about your conspiracy..

Are posters allowed to question that conspiracy? if not, why not?

Risteard81

PintOfView wrote: »

Isn't that a good thing, that the lockdown worked so we didn't need to use them.

It didn't work, and they don't work, and they can't work.

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I can only assume you are misunderstanding

Covid could be around forever (like e.g. seasonal flu), that doesn't automatically mean it will be the same threat as it is now (to overwhelm national health services)

The situation is dynamic. Measures are a reaction to that situation, which is why measures are also dynamic. Cases go up? measures increased. Cases go down? measures decrease. It's all relative, and quite fluid.



Again, another misunderstanding. Gone is not literal, just means not the same threat as it is right now.

Oh sorry, my misunderstanding. I didn’t realise you were using the none literal “gone”.

SafeSurfer

Risteard81 wrote: »

It didn't work, and they don't work, and they can't work.

And more and more people around the world are beginning to see that.

Dohnjoe

Risteard81 wrote: »

It didn't work, and they don't work, and they can't work.

It did work, cases decreased significantly. The problem is most countries relaxed too much, and due to that there is a second wave, ergo we've had to lockdown again.

Risteard81

Dohnjoe wrote: »

It did work, cases decreased significantly. The problem is most countries relaxed too much, and due to that there is a second wave, ergo we've had to lockdown again.

Not true. Cases rise and fall - this is independent of control measures as constantly proven. It has nothing to do with relaxing too much - an endemic virus is still there and will continue to rise and fall.

They don't work. They will never work. It is impossible for them to work. You can't control nature. This idiotic totalitarian junta would do well to realise that instead of killing us all with their vile and evil ways.

SafeSurfer

Risteard81 wrote: »

Not true. Cases rise and fall - this is independent of control measures as constantly proven. It has nothing to do with relaxing too much - an endemic virus is still there and will continue to rise and fall.

They don't work. They will never work. It is impossible for them to work. You can't control nature. This idiotic totalitarian junta would do well to realise that instead of killing us all with their vile and evil ways.

Another conspiracy theory is that individuals are planted on social media when questions are by posed to post inane nonsense in an attempt to undermine valid questions.

PintOfView

Risteard81 wrote: »

It didn't work, and they don't work, and they can't work.

But it did work last spring. How do you explain the big rise in deaths in Apr last year, and the decrease and back to normal by June.
Jan in normally the highest month for deaths.
Last year April was
Why do you think that was?

Are we to just believe you, just because you say so, even if you can't put up any reasons?

martingriff

PintOfView wrote: »

I think it's possible that some people with terminal illness do catch covid, and die with covid, and contribute to the numbers.
However the majority of people making up the numbers of deaths likely would not have died but for covid.

Re smoking, that is not a communicable disease, at least not in the way covid is, so not really comparable.

If covid results in a 1% mortality, and if everyone in the country got it eventually, then that adds up to about 50,000 people.
There is also a percentage of people who seem to have symptoms that last months or longer.
Do you think that that's an acceptable result if we were to just open up again?

If we decide it is then we need to be prepared to accept those consequences, or worse.
(the mortality rate would likely increase in the absence of hospital care, as hospitals would not have
capacity for the numbers requiring care, plus additional mortality due to other patients being pushed out of the system)

Just because someone is terminally ill does not mean covid could not have hastened there death. They could have lived for x number more months years etc. So it be right to add them to the numbers

PintOfView

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Another conspiracy theory is that individuals are planted on social media when questions are by posed to post inane nonsense in an attempt to undermine valid questions.

Are you saying it's a baseless conspiracy, or that you think that is happening?

And you haven't responded to the evidence yet, the graph on this page
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Risteard81

PintOfView wrote: »

But it did work last spring. How do you explain the big rise in deaths in Apr last year, and the decrease and back to normal by June.
Jan in normally the highest month for deaths.
Last year April was
Why do you think that was?

Are we to just believe you, just because you say so, even if you can't put up any reasons?

IT. HAD. NOTHING. TO. DO. WITH. THE. UNCONSTITUTIONAL. AND. UNLAWFUL. AND. ILLEGAL. TOTALITARIAN. RESTRICTIONS.

Dohnjoe

Risteard81 wrote: »

Not true. Cases rise and fall - this is independent of control measures as constantly proven. It has nothing to do with relaxing too much - an endemic virus is still there and will continue to rise and fall.

They don't work. They will never work. It is impossible for them to work. You can't control nature.

Not sure where to start with this. Cases decreased relatively as measures to tackle the spread of the virus were enacted, cases went back up again as certain measures were relaxed. Likewise countries are now trying to stablise/decrease cases with the latest measures. There's a direct correlation.

This idiotic totalitarian junta would do well to realise that instead of killing us all with their vile and evil ways.

Which junta? and they are "killing us" how?

Dohnjoe

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Another conspiracy theory is that individuals are planted on social media when questions are by posed to post inane nonsense in an attempt to undermine valid questions.

Vague conspiracy
Evading questions on the conspiracy <-- We are currently here, and close to moving to the next level
Accusing posters of being shills

Timberrrrrrrr

Risteard81 wrote: »

Not true. Cases rise and fall - this is independent of control measures as constantly proven. It has nothing to do with relaxing too much - an endemic virus is still there and will continue to rise and fall.

They don't work. They will never work. It is impossible for them to work. You can't control nature. This idiotic totalitarian junta would do well to realise that instead of killing us all with their vile and evil ways.

You're doing awful well for a dead lad.

SafeSurfer

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Vague conspiracy
Evading questions on the conspiracy <-- We are currently here, and close to moving to the next level
Accusing posters of being shills

Well I am sorry but I consider someone trying to move a discussion on lockdown strategy to one about satanic cults to be a shill.

PintOfView

Risteard81 wrote: »

IT. HAD. NOTHING. TO. DO. WITH. THE. UNCONSTITUTIONAL. AND. UNLAWFUL. AND. ILLEGAL. TOTALITARIAN. RESTRICTIONS.

So why did the daily cases drop from 8,000 a few weeks ago to around 1,000 at the moment?

Or are we being lied to by 'them'?

Risteard81

PintOfView wrote: »

So why did the daily cases drop from 8,000 a few weeks ago to around 1,000 at the moment?

Or are we being lied to by 'them'?

Because they will drop!

They don't rise exponentially forever, in spite of the ludicrous claims of the State.

PintOfView

Risteard81 wrote: »

Because they will drop!

They don't rise exponentially forever, in spite of the ludicrous claims of the State.

So is it just a coincidence that the numbers dropped since we locked down?

Is that what you actually believe?

Dohnjoe

Risteard81 wrote: »

Because they will drop!

They don't rise exponentially forever, in spite of the ludicrous claims of the State.

According to some, you are a paid shill for the state to disrupt the real questions, what do you think of that?

Who can we trust