How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

Icyseanfitz

JJJackal wrote: »

What are you talking about sacrifice? Emotive language to illicit an emotive response.

Are you willing to sacrifice a generations mental and social development? How manynlives will be lost with that

I mean we are intentionally putting children and an entire workface in the firing line of covid-19 with little to no real protections in place, I am emotive because this farce directly effects me, my family and my students health.

Regarding mental health and social development, this is much less of an issue with post primary schools, in fact being in school at the moment is negatively effecting a lot of my students mental health due to anxiety issues and being afraid of getting this virus and bringing it home. I have said it before a childs mental health will be horribly damaged if they bring covid home to their parents and grandparents.

Smacruairi

JJJackal wrote: »

I referenced the CDC position

This is the who position

School closures have clear negative impacts on child health, education and development, family income and the overall economy.

The decision to reopen schools should include consideration of the following benefits:

Allowing students to complete their studies and continue to the next level
Essential services, access to nutrition, child welfare, such as preventing violence against children
Social and psychological well-being
Access to reliable information on how to keep themselves and others safe
Reducing the risk of non-return to school
Benefit to society, such as allowing parents to work

Yeah we read that too. That's why we have recommended hybrid opening, which you keep ignoring.

My rudimentary example of half in before lunch, half in after. That would straight away double the space available. Would you support that measure.

JJJackal

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yeah we read that too. That's why we have recommended hybrid opening, which you keep ignoring.

My rudimentary example of half in before lunch, half in after. That would straight away double the space available. Would you support that measure.

The risk benefit ratio needs to be factored in. This needs to take into account all the elements in cdc/who recommendations. A conclusion needs to be reached by gov/NPHET. Factors like local prevalence rate need to be taken into account

khalessi

JJJackal wrote: »

The risk benefit ratio needs to be factored in. This needs to take into account all the elements in cdc/who recommendations. A conclusion needs to be reached by gov/NPHET. Factors like local prevalence rate need to be taken into account

Well here is their continuum of risk for schools

Continuum of risk
By model of learning and implementation of proven mitigation strategies
In general, the risk of COVID-19 spread in schools increases across the continuum of virtual, hybrid, to in-person learning with the risk moderated for hybrid and in-person learning based upon the range of mitigation strategies put in place and the extent they are conscientiously followed.

While not exhaustive, this stratification attempts to characterize the risks of spread among students, teachers, and staff across this continuum:

Lowest risk:

Students and teachers engage in virtual-only classes, activities, and events

Some risk:

Hybrid Learning Model: Some students participate in virtual learning and other students participate in in-person learning
Small, in-person classes, activities, and events
Cohorting, alternating schedules, and staggered schedules are applied rigorously
No mixing of groups of students and teachers throughout/across school days
Students and teachers do not share objects
Students, teachers, and staff follow all steps to protect themselves and others at all times including proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Regularly scheduled (i.e., at least daily or between uses) cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas implemented with fidelity

Medium risk:

Hybrid Learning Model: Most students participate in in-person learning, some students participate in virtual learning
Larger in-person classes, activities, and events
Cohorting, alternating schedules, and staggered schedules are applied with some exceptions
Some mixing of groups of students and teachers throughout/across school days
Students and teachers minimally share objects
Students, teachers, and staff follow all steps to protect themselves and others such as proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Regularly scheduled cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas largely implemented with fidelity

Higher risk:

Students and teachers engage in in-person only learning, activities, and events
Students minimally mix between classes and activities
Students and teachers share some objects
Students, teachers, and staff follow some steps to protect themselves and others at all times such as proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Irregular cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas


Highest risk:

Students and teachers engage in in-person only learning, activities, and events
Students mix freely between classes and activities
Students and teachers freely share objects
Students, teachers, and staff do not/are not required to follow steps to protect themselves and others such as proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Irregular cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas

Icyseanfitz

JJJackal wrote: »

The risk benefit ratio needs to be factored in. This needs to take into account all the elements in cdc/who recommendations. A conclusion needs to be reached by gov/NPHET. Factors like local prevalence rate need to be taken into account

it has been, covid-19 cant infect anyone as long as they are within a school building, or eating a 9 euro meal.

Smacruairi

JJJackal wrote: »

The risk benefit ratio needs to be factored in. This needs to take into account all the elements in cdc/who recommendations. A conclusion needs to be reached by gov/NPHET. Factors like local prevalence rate need to be taken into account

Risk benefit... To removing kids from a potentially unsafe environment.. And you can't find a straight answer there. Grand thanks.

Nphet by the way says we should be limiting our contacts, no guests more than 1,no indoor gatherings at all, no hospital visitations, cancel non essential surgeries, no non essential travel.

But you won't even contemplate a hybrid model because...

Icyseanfitz

khalessi wrote: »

Well here is their continuum of risk for schools

Continuum of risk
By model of learning and implementation of proven mitigation strategies
In general, the risk of COVID-19 spread in schools increases across the continuum of virtual, hybrid, to in-person learning with the risk moderated for hybrid and in-person learning based upon the range of mitigation strategies put in place and the extent they are conscientiously followed.

While not exhaustive, this stratification attempts to characterize the risks of spread among students, teachers, and staff across this continuum:

Lowest risk:

Students and teachers engage in virtual-only classes, activities, and events

Some risk:

Hybrid Learning Model: Some students participate in virtual learning and other students participate in in-person learning
Small, in-person classes, activities, and events
Cohorting, alternating schedules, and staggered schedules are applied rigorously
No mixing of groups of students and teachers throughout/across school days
Students and teachers do not share objects
Students, teachers, and staff follow all steps to protect themselves and others at all times including proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Regularly scheduled (i.e., at least daily or between uses) cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas implemented with fidelity

Medium risk:

Hybrid Learning Model: Most students participate in in-person learning, some students participate in virtual learning
Larger in-person classes, activities, and events
Cohorting, alternating schedules, and staggered schedules are applied with some exceptions
Some mixing of groups of students and teachers throughout/across school days
Students and teachers minimally share objects
Students, teachers, and staff follow all steps to protect themselves and others such as proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Regularly scheduled cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas largely implemented with fidelity

Higher risk:

Students and teachers engage in in-person only learning, activities, and events
Students minimally mix between classes and activities
Students and teachers share some objects
Students, teachers, and staff follow some steps to protect themselves and others at all times such as proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Irregular cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas


Highest risk:

Students and teachers engage in in-person only learning, activities, and events
Students mix freely between classes and activities
Students and teachers freely share objects
Students, teachers, and staff do not/are not required to follow steps to protect themselves and others such as proper use of face masks, social distancing, hand hygiene
Irregular cleaning and disinfection of frequently touched areas

and there you have irish schools, highest risk

JJJackal

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

it has been, covid-19 cant infect anyone as long as they are within a school building, or eating a 9 euro meal.

I presume you mean can.

Risk is based on local prevalence and a multitude of factors.

Risk benefit of schols opening is based on a multitude of factors in addition to if i am in contact with someone I can get covid

Icyseanfitz

JJJackal wrote: »

I presume you mean can.

Risk is based on local prevalence and a multitude of factors.

Risk benefit of schols opening is based on a multitude of factors in addition to if i am in contact with someone I can get covid

no I said cant, it was sarcasm

wirelessdude01

The first death of a student, teacher or ancillary school staff member that can be traced back to a school building will be a poignant moment in the history of our state. It will the time when people realise commercial interests trumped the health of our citizens.

It isn't a question of if it will happen but when it will happen. This cannot be denied by anyone.

Icyseanfitz

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The first death of a student, teacher or ancillary school staff member that can be traced back to a school building will be a poignant moment in the history of our state. It will the time when people realise commercial interests trumped the health of our citizens.

It isn't a question of if it will happen but when it will happen. This cannot be denied by anyone.

from what I've seen since august, the majority wont even notice, or will lap up whatever story is thrown out about said person contracting it in the community but certainly not within a school.

Locotastic

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The first death of a student, teacher or ancillary school staff member that can be traced back to a school building will be a poignant moment in the history of our state. It will the time when people realise commercial interests trumped the health of our citizens.

It isn't a question of if it will happen but when it will happen. This cannot be denied by anyone.

Of course it can be denied, that is by no means a certainty just because you said so.

I'm beginning to think that some people will be disappointed if things don't end disastrously.

Locotastic

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

from what I've seen since august, the majority wont even notice, or will lap up whatever story is thrown out about said person contracting it in the community but certainly not within a school.

Covid fatigue has well and truly set in, not many people give a **** anymore about guidelines, advice or restrictions. Plenty have stopped reading about it or checking daily numbers or reading the news.

That's society slowing accepting things and moving on, that's how these things go. People need to put on blinkers to progress with normal life.

Government saying we must do more we must do more and shutting down businesses again after a short couple of months, businesses that have done everything bending over backwards to continue trading.

Ever growing number of people can't do any more they just aren't able to.

Icyseanfitz

Locotastic wrote: »

Covid fatigue has well and truly set in, not many people give a **** anymore about guidelines, advice or restrictions. Plenty have stopped reading about it or checking daily numbers or reading the news.

That's society slowing accepting things and moving on, that's how these things go. People need to put on blinkers to progress with normal life.

Government saying we must do more we must do more and shutting down businesses again after a short couple of months, businesses that have done everything bending over backwards to continue trading.

Ever growing number of people can't do any more they just aren't able to.

Thats all well and good, but covid-19 is not gone, the danger isn't gone, and people putting their fingers in their ears going lalalala and pretending it doesn't exist won't change a damn thing.

kowloonkev

Will Yam wrote: »

Why is it inevitable that all schools will have to close?

If there is an outbreak in, say, dingle, why should a school in Donegal have to close?

Because the numbers in hospital will eventually rise to an unmanageable level where they actually can't cope and people deathly ill won't be able to have a fighting chance. They won't get a bed in ICU or even oxygen maybe.

That's how the virus works if you basically ignore it. Use your brain.

HSE workers have done an amazing job and don't deserve this negligence from the government.

I'm not even saying schools should be closed. But the fact they're not even wearing masks is insanity and will definitely lead to huge spread in the community. And it's unnecessary.

wirelessdude01

Locotastic wrote: »

Of course it can be denied, that is by no means a certainty just because you said so.

I'm beginning to think that some people will be disappointed if things don't end disastrously.

See that's the thing. The one certainty is that there will be deaths that can be traced back to schools.

Not a case of being alarmist or anything like that, more a case of being fully aware of what is actually happening on the ground.

kowloonkev

Locotastic wrote: »

Of course it can be denied, that is by no means a certainty just because you said so.

I'm beginning to think that some people will be disappointed if things don't end disastrously.

head firmly in sand

pwurple

Lordie... Schools must close? Dramatic storm off?

We don't have widespread broadband infrastructure. We don't have teachers who are trained to do online teaching. Blended learning is an idea that has already been put in the bin for those reasons.

And places like Sligo have feck all cases, yet they get on with all the restrictions without whining. Dublin parents, send kids in with Covid. Punish Sligo though is it?

The correct approach is exactly what is being done now. Case by case basis.

combat14

is it acceptable for schools to strike for the following reasons:


- Lack of Physical distancing in schools
- Lack of Provision of PPE
- Poor definition of close contacts
- Lack of Comprehensive testing and testing turnaround times
- Lack of / No Provisions for high risk teachers
- Zero provision of IT resources for students and teachers to facilitate remote teaching/ learning


what do people think do we want to keep schools open and students, teachers and the wider community safe or are we happy for the current unsafe **** show in schools to continue

irishblessing

JJJackal wrote: »

The risk benefit ratio needs to be factored in. This needs to take into account all the elements in cdc/who recommendations. A conclusion needs to be reached by gov/NPHET. Factors like local prevalence rate need to be taken into account

You quoted the American CDC- the American's have taken on board their advice and to protect all their citizens states have a remote hybrid learning plan. I have family and friends in more than a few US states. They all have a hybrid learning model, and some of their kids are starting the first fall term fully remote due to big outbreaks in their area. The others have options for families and teachers.

irishblessing

pwurple wrote: »

Lordie... Schools must close? Dramatic storm off?

We don't have widespread broadband infrastructure. We don't have teachers who are trained to do online teaching. Blended learning is an idea that has already been put in the bin for those reasons.

And places like Sligo have feck all cases, yet they get on with all the restrictions without whining. Dublin parents, send kids in with Covid. Punish Sligo though is it?

The correct approach is exactly what is being done now. Case by case basis.

Quote one person who said or advocated for schools closing.

You're wrong. We do have widespread broadband / internet even rurally. Note I used your word widespread and am not claiming everyone has full access.
We do have teachers that are trained to do online teaching. Some of them already did that in March-June. Others are currently training (as they are now even in our very small rural school). Professionals in any industry normally upskill to stay current with changing technology and software and trends. Uni's are doing it as well as other online courses being around for years. The teaching profession is no different so you're going nowhere with that bs.
Please post a link that supports that statement- blended learning was considered and then put in the bin for those reasons.
Even if that were true, that doesn't make it right. Other major countries have done it, are you saying that Ireland's education department and it's teachers are incapable where others succeeded? You'd want to be careful coming from a position like that.
And I'm pretty sure people everywhere all over this island are whining. Give over, you can't speak for the actions of an entire county of people. :rolleyes:

E36Ross

Put teachers on the €350 and they wouldn't want to close.....

Not all about teachers, You've Bus Drivers, SNA, Cleaners, Canteen Staff etc.....

khalessi

E36Ross wrote: »

Put teachers on the €350 and they wouldn't want to close.....

Not all about teachers, You've Bus Drivers, SNA, Cleaners, Canteen Staff etc.....

We know it is not all about teachers. It is about safety, bus drivers have a panel between them , and passengers who are socially distant and wearing masks except on school buses which they cant manage even though they have had 6 months to sort it.

SNAs sit less than 60cm from the people they are helping and that is a problem as not all wear masks also a problem. CLeaners generally wear ppe and clean after school when it is empty but also can be an issue if they are in school during the day. Canteen staff wearing ppe but same issues all rules that apply else where for safety do not apply to schools. Even recently 30 teachers were alerted that they were close contacts of someone by the Covid tracking app and all was fine until it was discovered they worked in a school, they were told they did not have to be tested or worry.

Why is the Covid tracker applies to everyone but those who work in schools?

Welcome to the discussion btw it is about schools so teachers will be discussed but other staff also included.

meeeeh

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

The first death of a student, teacher or ancillary school staff member that can be traced back to a school building will be a poignant moment in the history of our state. It will the time when people realise commercial interests trumped the health of our citizens.

It isn't a question of if it will happen but when it will happen. This cannot be denied by anyone.

So a death of a meat factory worker, bus driver, care assistant is part of the job but a death connected to education is a truly poignant moment in Irish history. I love how you put value of your life above other Covid victims. A truly pompous statement with complete disregard for sacrifices people in other professions made.

JJJackal

it appears to me that everyone would only like to work in schools if 0 risk. This won't be the case.

NHPET as time goes by will advise on who and how to test close contacts in school.

I note the concern is primarily about testing teachers. Not students, SNAs etc. Interesting

khalessi

JJJackal wrote: »

it appears to me that everyone would only like to work in schools if 0 risk. This won't be the case.

NHPET as time goes by will advise on who and how to test close contacts in school.

I note the concern is primarily about testing teachers. Not students, SNAs etc. Interesting

Well considering many people have referred to all staff in schools many many times in this thread and that you are new to discussion, I am sure it is. But teachers have the loudest voice so what applies to them also appllies to SNAs, office staff, caretakers, cleaners and other staff who work in schools. So do you think if they are not listening to teachers they are not listening to the other staff?

In the reopening of schools guidelines SNAs are barely referenced by the plans. They appear in a drawing and are not sd because they help the student. It was complained aobut at the time and fell on deaf ears. SNAs cannot do their job and socially distance.

alroley

E36Ross wrote: »

Put teachers on the €350 and they wouldn't want to close.....

Not all about teachers, You've Bus Drivers, SNA, Cleaners, Canteen Staff etc.....

I'd take that option if given. At least my high risk family member and I would be safe.

Also, I don't want schools to close. I want them to be safer, because right now my workplace is criminally dangerous. I just want the same protections shop staff etc. have. Reduced numbers and additional ppe.

Icyseanfitz

JJJackal wrote: »

it appears to me that everyone would only like to work in schools if 0 risk. This won't be the case.

NHPET as time goes by will advise on who and how to test close contacts in school.

I note the concern is primarily about testing teachers. Not students, SNAs etc. Interesting

I am sna and have near enough the same concerns as everyone else voicing their opinion here. My job within a school makes a complete mockery of pods/groups/whatever you want to call them, we float around a classroom of 30 students, a foot distance at the most, and then move to another class of 30 students after an hour.

And no we don't expect zero risk (although we should most certainly aspire to it), we just expect the same level of procedures and safety afforded to every other industry essential service or not.

irishblessing

meeeeh wrote: »

So a death of a meat factory worker, bus driver, care assistant is part of the job but a death connected to education is a truly poignant moment in Irish history. I love how you put value of your life above other Covid victims. A truly pompous statement with complete disregard for sacrifices people in other professions made.

And there has been absolute outrage over those deaths. Lessons should have been learned. It doesn't seem they have been. It's not about valuing one life over the other. It's about recognising where we failed those people and their families and doing better in future.

Icyseanfitz

khalessi wrote: »

Well considering many people have referred to all staff in schools many many times in this thread and that you are new to discussion, I am sure it is. But teachers have the loudest voice so what applies to them also appllies to SNAs, office staff, caretakers, cleaners and other staff who work in schools. So do you think if they are not listening to teachers they are not listening to the other staff?

In the reopening of schools guidelines SNAs are barely referenced by the plans. They appear in a drawing and are not sd because they help the student. It was complained aobut at the time and fell on deaf ears. SNAs cannot do their job and socially distance.

We have been given no guidance as a whole profession, basically told put on a mask/visor and get on with it as normal.