How will schools be able to go back in September? (Continued)

JJJackal

Blondini wrote: »

Jaysus the thread has gone crazy this Saturday evening.

The only thing worse than an imbecelic teacher-bashing cretin is a drunk imbecelic teacher-bashing cretin.

I am a student advocate

Jinglejangle69

Blondini wrote: »

Jaysus the thread has gone crazy this Saturday evening.

The only thing worse than an imbecelic teacher-bashing cretin is a drunk imbecelic teacher-bashing cretin.

But only your opinion matters.

As you made clear yesterday.

Nothing else.

Smacruairi

JJJackal wrote: »

Have you bern in the 'waiting area'? The waiting areas are corridors.

Well buses don't need full capacity due to decreased demand. If the bus only needs to carry 10 people it can easily operate at reduced capacity. That is why.

100% of students still need their education.

All other industries where workers have not been able to work, have put their workers on the covid payment . I suspect you agree that teachers should be treated like all other businesses in this reagard? If they can't work in a safe environment like bars etc

I have been there. Exactly, they are not wards. So likewise kids are OK to be left in corridors or outside and not placed in packed rooms, as per your comparison. I'm sure the lack of supervision because the DES won't pay for extra teachers won't be an issue with parents and guardians..

Yes but if that bus is packed you still can't get on. Some classes are smaller than others (eg applied maths) but to again use your analogy, you put on more buses for English, you don't just point to small applied maths class and think that the Class size will be fine. You cite demand, well there is no demand for all students to be in all classes all the time if it violates safety protocols,as many many commenters have posted.

No problem with a covid payment actually,but that actually has nothing to do with what we are talking about, the conditions of work, so I'd rather you stayed on that topic as opposed to trying to move it away from where you clearly are having an issue.

Why are every other sector operating within safety protocols and entitled to as safe an environment as possible, but not schools. Again you really haven't answered this at all.

Blondini

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

But only your opinion matters.

As you made clear yesterday.

Nothing else.

Know your level JJ and stick with it.

dubrov

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

But only your opinion matters.

As you made clear yesterday.

Nothing else.

"If you don't agree with me you are an imbecille".

It's sad but that is the way online discussions have gone.
No attempt on either side to argue a point by backing up with evidence.

Jinglejangle69

Smacruairi wrote: »

I have been there. Exactly, they are not wards. So likewise kids are OK to be left in corridors or outside and not placed in packed rooms, as per your comparison.

Yes but if that bus is packed you still can't get on. Some classes are smaller than others (eg applied maths) but to again use your analogy, you put on more buses for English, you don't just point to small applied maths class and think that the Class size will be fine.

No problem with a covid payment actually,but that actually has nothing to do with what we are talking about, the conditions of work, so I'd rather you stayed on that topic as opposed to trying to move it away from where you clearly are having an issue.

Why are every other sector operating within safety protocols and entitled to as safe an environment as possible, but not schools. Again you really haven't answered this at all.

I work in many plants across food, dairy, pharmaceutical etc..

And I can tell you there is no magic safety protocalls in place that schools don't have.

Sure just look at supermarkets.

The argument could be made schools are just as safe/dangerous depending on your point of view.

JJJackal

Smacruairi wrote: »

I have been there. Exactly, they are not wards. So likewise kids are OK to be left in corridors or outside and not placed in packed rooms, as per your comparison.

Yes but if that bus is packed you still can't get on. Some classes are smaller than others (eg applied maths) but to again use your analogy, you put on more buses for English, you don't just point to small applied maths class and think that the Class size will be fine. You cite demand, well there is no demand for all students to be in all classes all the time if it violates safety protocols,as many many commenters have posted.

No problem with a covid payment actually,but that actually has nothing to do with what we are talking about, the conditions of work, so I'd rather you stayed on that topic as opposed to trying to move it away from where you clearly are having an issue.

Why are every other sector operating within safety protocols and entitled to as safe an environment as possible, but not schools. Again you really haven't answered this at all.

Re buses you use a single decker for applied maths and a double decker for English. Schools have expanded and or optimised space. In the one school I know all students aren't in the class at once. As explained above.


I dont believe teachers would be happy with a pay reduction do you? Ie 300 a week

Jinglejangle69

Blondini wrote: »

Know your level JJ and stick with it.

Know my level?

And you were a teacher.?

Nothing worst than someone looking down their nose at someone else.

Nothing.

Wow, unbelievable.

Smacruairi

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

I work on many plants across food, dairy, pharmaceutical etc..

And I can tell you there is no magic safety prorocalls in place that schools don't have.

Sure just look at supermarkets.

The argument could be made schools are just as safe/dangerous depending on your point of view.

I agree, there are no magic protocols. One thing that does work and is constantly cited however is distancing. School workers only want the same standards applied to other industries, including hospitals. If a td, an essential job surely, can't be in a room with his colleagues closer than 2m, then why is it OK to have 30 in a room for hours at a time? And if someone has covid in those circumstances, why are the whole room not informed as per latest hse developments?

Jinglejangle69

Smacruairi wrote: »

I agree, there are no magic protocols. One thing that does work and is constantly cited however is distancing. School workers only want the same standards applied to other industries, including hospitals. If a td, an essential job surely, can't be in a room with his colleagues closer than 2m, then why is it OK to have 30 in a room for hours at a time? And if someone has covid in those circumstances, why are the whole room not informed as per latest hse developments?

There is no distancing in every place I have quoted.

Nor in supermarkets.

Nor when gards have to do their job.

What about taxi drivers?

There is no distancing in food processing plants.

Can you give any rebut to my points above?

s1ippy

Will Yam wrote: »

And I presume they will soon trot out their old canard -“we are doing all this in the interests of our students. Nothing to do with self interest”

The virus is getting out of control because schools are driving transmission. They are not adequately protecting their staff, students and communities and they're a massive source of spread. Instead of fixating on a sector of society who you resent, why don't you look at it from their perspective.

Smacruairi

JJJackal wrote: »

Re buses you use a single decker for applied maths and a double decker for English. Schools have expanded and or optimised space. In the one school I know all students aren't in the class at once. As explained above.


I dont believe teachers would be happy with a pay reduction do you? Ie 300 a week

Yes and I questioned your maths on your example and you never elaborated. Where is the extra teacher coming from, as the DES has not provided for that in their accounts. It's ironic we are using bus metaphors as the DES actually gave up on the bus plans and school buses are at usual capacities, just with masks now. No distancing at all.

No one is happy with less money, obviously, but school workers want to work in environments that are safe. Likewise students are entitled to a learning environment that does not place them in unnecessarily hazardous environments. At the moment the DES has said go to the school building, and if you are uncomfortable, then sorry we are not helping you at all. Do you think that is OK?

Again, why is it OK for schools to have one set of rules, and hospitals restaurants and everything else have different ones. You keep ignoring this.

dubrov

s1ippy wrote: »

The virus is getting out of control because schools are driving transmission. They are not adequately protecting their staff, students and communities and they're a massive source of spread. Instead of fixating on a sector of society who you resent, why don't you look at it from their perspective.

You seem to have access to data which the rest of us don't

Jinglejangle69

s1ippy wrote: »

The virus is getting out of control because schools are driving transmission. They are not adequately protecting their staff, students and communities and they're a massive source of spread. Instead of fixating on a sector of society who you resent, why don't you look at it from their perspective.

Can you provide the evidence schools are driving transmission?

Bet you can't.

Just more soundbites.

Jinglejangle69

dubrov wrote: »

You seem to have access to data which the rest of us don't

100%

How do people get away with quoting non facts.

Smacruairi

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

There is no distancing in every place I have quoted.

Nor in supermarkets.

Nor when gards have to do their job.

What about taxi drivers?

There is no distancing in food processing plants.

Can you give any rebut to my points above?

Well I am not au fait with the procedures of dairy and meat plants. I do know however we have had clusters and mass transmissions leading to the lock down of counties owing to transmission in food plants so I would recommend that they are not the exemplars to follow at all.

In terms of supermarkets, yes there are increased restrictions, every supermarket I have been in has allowed only a certain amount of people in for example. You must wear a mask or you are not allowed in. They have removed utensils which would be for common use. Some don't accept cash, only wireless transactions,but the main one I see is the physical distancing achieved through reducing the numbers through the door and they enforce that rule vigilantly. Schools however have to open up for all students at all times so I don't think your comparison works at all, does that count as a rebuttal.

JJJackal

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yes and I questioned your maths on your example and you never elaborated. Where is the extra teacher coming from, as the DES has not provided for that in their accounts. It's ironic we are using bus metaphors as the DES actually gave up on the bus plans and school buses are at usual capacities, just with masks now. No distancing at all.

No one is happy with less money, obviously, but school workers want to work in environments that are safe. Likewise students are entitled to a learning environment that does not place them in unnecessarily hazardous environments. At the moment the DES has said go to the school building, and if you are uncomfortable, then sorry we are not helping you at all. Do you think that is OK?

Again, why is it OK for schools to have one set of rules, and hospitals restaurants and everything else have different ones. You keep ignoring this.

You don't need more teachers or staff.

For COVID-19 you need more space! Thus bigger rooms. The only school I know about has addresed the space issue and not employed extra staff.

The HSE uses masks wher they can't socially distance.

You should familiarise yourself with the hospital setup you keep referring too

teachinggal123

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

100%

How do people get away with quoting non facts.

This thread is full of non-facts being spouted as gospel.

History Queen

JJJackal wrote: »

You don't need more teachers or staff.

For COVID-19 you need more space! Thus bigger rooms. The only school I know about has addresed the space issue and not employed extra staff.

The HSE uses masks wher they can't socially distance.

You should familiarise yourself with the hospital setup you keep referring too

The fact that you think we don't need more teachers speaks volumes about your knowledge, or lack thereof, when it comes to schools.

Smacruairi

JJJackal wrote: »

You don't need more teachers or staff.

For COVID-19 you need more space! Thus bigger rooms. The only school I know about has addresed the space issue and not employed extra staff.

The HSE uses masks wher they can't socially distance.

You should familiarise yourself with the hospital setup you keep referring too

Yes more space,i agree. You can't just double the size of all rooms for the craic though can you? Not in the 6 weeks the govt released their plan, but I agree with you on space, least we are getting somewhere.

How have they addressed the space issue? You never actually elaborated on that one for me.

They use masks yes, but are on a 1-1 basis with patients, and those patients are essential ones. They are not spending hours at a time a room with 25+ patients.

Im very familiar with a hospital set up, thank you very much. It's why I find it baffling you keep referring to hospitals and schools in the same breath in terms of protocols. But while we are here, weren't nurses and junior doctors threatening strike actions several times in the past few years? Did you support them or did you tell them just to get on with it.

And the fact that you think more staff is not needed when there is a HUGE recruitment issue, particularly in Dublin... It's actually appalling.

teachinggal123

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Will Yam is a troll who, frankly, would take pleasure from the deaths of teachers.
That's not an exaggeration.

This is a truly despicable post. Those who thanked this should be ashamed of themselves.

Queried

JJJackal wrote: »

You don't need more teachers or staff.

For COVID-19 you need more space! Thus bigger rooms. The only school I know about has addresed the space issue and not employed extra staff.

The HSE uses masks wher they can't socially distance.

You should familiarise yourself with the hospital setup you keep referring too

Hi JJJackal,

Can I ask how the school addressed the space issue? Genuinely curious because in my school this just isn't an option and wondering how other schools have managed.

JJJackal

History Queen wrote: »

The fact that you think we don't need more teachers speaks volumes about your knowledge, or lack thereof, when it comes to schools.

You may well need more teachers to get optimal ratios etc or to dedicate more time per student.

The discussion here revolves around safety and risk benefit.

Covid19 safety revolves around space between students and staff. You need more space to socially distance. Even if you had more teachers you would need more class rooms... and more space. The key for safety is distance.

Queried

JJJackal wrote: »

You may well need more teachers to get optimal ratios etc or to dedicate more time per student.

The discussion here revolves around safety and risk benefit.

Covid19 safety revolves around space between students and staff. You need more space to socially distance. Even if you had more teachers you would need more class rooms... and more space. The key for safety is distance.

For sure, space for distancing is the main issue in my opinion. Its just not an option in any school that I'm aware of.

Smacruairi

JJJackal wrote: »

You may well need more teachers to get optimal ratios etc or to dedicate more time per student.

The discussion here revolves around safety and risk benefit.

Covid19 safety revolves around space between students and staff. You need more space to socially distance. Even if you had more teachers you would need more class rooms... and more space. The key for safety is distance.

Great. I agree with this completely. And if you have more rooms for more distancing even better, though you would need more staff to monitor these rooms but the spacing is vital.

However the DES is intentionally not trying to space students. Don't you agree this is awful.

JJJackal

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yes more space,i agree. You can't just double the size of all rooms for the craic though can you? Not in the 6 weeks the govt released their plan, but I agree with you on space, least we are getting somewhere.

How have they addressed the space issue? You never actually elaborated on that one for me.

They use masks yes, but are on a 1-1 basis with patients, and those patients are essential ones. They are not spending hours at a time a room with 25+ patients.

Im very familiar with a hospital set up, thank you very much. It's why I find it baffling you keep referring to hospitals and schools in the same breath in terms of protocols. But while we are here, weren't nurses and junior doctors threatening strike actions several times in the past few years? Did you support them or did you tell them just to get on with it.

And the fact that you think more staff is not needed when there is a HUGE recruitment issue, particularly in Dublin... It's actually appalling.

Junior doctors threatened strike over working 36 hours in a row. How many hours does a teacher work in a week? ( sorry you walked into that one!)

Re space - convert gyms, ensure all rooms in use, convert any and all space to big rooms. Put some students in the computer suites and zoom them in?

All patients are essential. You probably shouldn't physically be occupying a hospital bed unless your essential? Other work would be outpatient work. Healthcare workers see patients with confirmed covid. Well documented that they are at higher risk than teachers worldwide. See all who have died

Queried

Smacruairi wrote: »

Great. I agree with this completely. And if you have more rooms for more distancing even better, though you would need more staff to monitor these rooms but the spacing is vital.

However the DES is intentionally not trying to space students. Don't you agree this is awful.

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said. More space = less risk for all involved. The DES have no intention of doing anything about the space issue, too much work.

JJJackal

Smacruairi wrote: »

Great. I agree with this completely. And if you have more rooms for more distancing even better, though you would need more staff to monitor these rooms but the spacing is vital.

However the DES is intentionally not trying to space students. Don't you agree this is awful.

Very few people intentionally do anything to harm others when safe options are available. I dont consider not educating children safe or practical.

History Queen

JJJackal wrote: »

You may well need more teachers to get optimal ratios etc or to dedicate more time per student.

The discussion here revolves around safety and risk benefit.

Covid19 safety revolves around space between students and staff. You need more space to socially distance. Even if you had more teachers you would need more class rooms... and more space. The key for safety is distance.

Or we might need more teachers to teach classes when teachers are self isolating/restricting movements due to being close contacts or having symptoms, let alone if they are ill with Covid. Or are you suggesting that unsupervised classes doesn't come under the remit of safety and risk benefit?

I do agree that more space would be a huge help

JJJackal

Queried wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly with what you've said. More space = less risk for all involved. The DES have no intention of doing anything about the space issue, too much work.

the onky school I can reference has almost doubled I space. I know they were lucky to be able to do this. I dont know the situation in every school.

I am sure the one school I know isn't unique in creating more space?