Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Tenzor07

Limpy wrote: »

We need a big protest like other EU citizens do when the government take them for fools.

Nah, the Irish are very compliant, we were all happy to let the Catholic church run the country for almost 50 years, to let corrupt politicians that make Trump look like an Angel run our Government, Haughey, Ahearn, re-electing Michael Lowry year after year....the list goes on..

Sofa King

I may have misheard this on Prime Time last night, and if I did then I apologise in advance.

Did they mention on Prime time that NPHET requested extra powers for the Gardaí? If so, why is this?

_Kaiser_

John O.Groats wrote: »

Sleepy Eamon? Coming from someone who the other day was accusing the pro restrictions people about resorting to insults you seem to be engaging in the exact same thing yourself. Not for the first time either I might add.

It's not an insult if it's accurate. Shall I dig out the video for you John?

_Kaiser_

Sofa King wrote: »

I may have misheard this on Prime Time last night, and if I did then I apologise in advance.

Did they mention on Prime time that NPHET requested extra powers for the Gardaí? If so, why is this?

There was talk of giving Gardai greater powers to police private house parties.
The Government stopped short of doing that though saying it's under consideration in the briefing yesterday.

bush

Sofa King wrote: »

I may have misheard this on Prime Time last night, and if I did then I apologise in advance.

Did they mention on Prime time that NPHET requested extra powers for the Gardaí? If so, why is this?

I was wondering this too

odyssey06

Sofa King wrote: »

I may have misheard this on Prime Time last night, and if I did then I apologise in advance.
Did they mention on Prime time that NPHET requested extra powers for the Gardaí? If so, why is this?

It said gardaí should be given any powers necessary to interrupt and prevent house parties. The Cabinet also agreed that new powers should be given to gardaí so that pubs that are clearly disregarding public health guidelines could be immediately closed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0819/1159959-covid-19-enforcement-ag/

bush

odyssey06 wrote: »

It said gardaí should be given any powers necessary to interrupt and prevent house parties. The Cabinet also agreed that new powers should be given to gardaí so that pubs that are clearly disregarding public health guidelines could be immediately closed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0819/1159959-covid-19-enforcement-ag/

What a load of bollocks

Plumbthedepths

Private property rights are enshrined in the constitution. It's going to be a tricky one for the government to give AGS the power they have suggested. Sounds like a toothless threat tbh, but my opinion is based on very limited general knowledge of Bunreacht Na hEireann. Maybe someone with a more detailed knowledge can explain the realities.

Sofa King

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

There was talk of giving Gardai greater powers to police private house parties.
The Government stopped short of doing that though saying it's under consideration in the briefing yesterday.

odyssey06 wrote: »

It said gardaí should be given any powers necessary to interrupt and prevent house parties. The Cabinet also agreed that new powers should be given to gardaí so that pubs that are clearly disregarding public health guidelines could be immediately closed.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0819/1159959-covid-19-enforcement-ag/

As per the RTE article linked;

'In its advice to Government published last night, the National Public Health Emergency Team said the majority, or 172 out of 290 outbreaks, are located in private houses

It said gardaí should be given any powers necessary to interrupt and prevent house parties.'

I still don't understand why NPHET should have any influence over what the Gardaí do?

It really makes me question who is making the actual decisions in these meetings.

odyssey06

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Private property rights are enshrined in the constitution. It's going to be a tricky one for the government to give AGS the power they have suggested. Sounds like a toothless threat tbh, but my opinion is based on very limited general knowledge of Bunreacht Na hEireann. Maybe someone with a more detailed knowledge can explain the realities.

Probably why they were not introduced ASAP but have gone to the Attorney General for consideration.

John O.Groats

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's not an insult if it's accurate. Shall I dig out the video for you John?

I`m quite capable of "digging out" the video myself thanks very much and I have already seen it several times anyway. The point is that if you yourself are going to engage in insults/smart comments then I put it to you that you have no grounds to complain when others who don`'t agree with your narrative do the same.

odyssey06

Sofa King wrote: »

As per the RTE article linked;

'In its advice to Government published last night, the National Public Health Emergency Team said the majority, or 172 out of 290 outbreaks, are located in private houses

It said gardaí should be given any powers necessary to interrupt and prevent house parties.'

I still don't understand why NPHET should have any influence over what the Gardaí do?

It really makes me question who is making the actual decisions in these meetings.

NPHET don't have any influence on what Gardai do operationally.
That is the published advice they gave to the Cabinet.
If they feel existing laws or regulations are not sufficient for the enforcement of public health rules, it would be negligent of them not to mention this.
It's up to the Cabinet to accept reject or modify them.

_Kaiser_

Sofa King wrote: »

As per the RTE article linked;

'In its advice to Government published last night, the National Public Health Emergency Team said the majority, or 172 out of 290 outbreaks, are located in private houses

It said gardaí should be given any powers necessary to interrupt and prevent house parties.'

I still don't understand why NPHET should have any influence over what the Gardaí do?

It really makes me question who is making the actual decisions in these meetings.

You're right and this is why we have mixed, unclear messaging and disjointed approaches

FG started this when Leo effectively abdicated decisions to Dr Tony H and NPHET. FF and Micheal have continued the trend since the new Government was formed.

As I said, NPHET should make their recommendations (and they should be only one of several voices that need to be heard incidentally), Government weigh up and debate all the advice and factors, and agree the approach.

But, that's not happening hence the current mess and growing frustration fro the public and indeed from elements in the Government itself.

_Kaiser_

John O.Groats wrote: »

I`m quite capable of "digging out" the video myself thanks very much and I have already seen it several times anyway. The point is that if you yourself are going to engage in insults/smart comments then I put it to you that you have no grounds to complain when others who don`'t agree with your narrative do the same.

And what has that to do with the topic at hand this morning? Your deflection tactics and petty antics don't wash with me.

Sofa King

odyssey06 wrote: »

NPHET don't have any influence on what Gardai do operationally.
That is the published advice they gave to the Cabinet.
If they feel existing laws or regulations are not sufficient for the enforcement of public health rules, it would be negligent of them not to mention this.
It's up to the Cabinet to accept reject or modify them.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You're right and this is why we have mixed, unclear messaging and disjointed approaches

FG started this when Leo effectively abdicated decisions to Dr Tony H and NPHET. FF and Micheal have continued the trend since the new Government was formed.

As I said, NPHET should make their recommendations (and they should be only one of several voices that need to be heard incidentally), Government weigh up and debate all the advice and factors, and agree the approach.

But, that's not happening hence the current mess and growing frustration fro the public and indeed from elements in the Government itself.

I will have to go onto the RTE Player and watch Prime Time back just to check the actual wording, but I am pretty certain they said that NPHET requested that Gardaí get extra powers and not that they recommended.

Again, it would come back to why are they in a position to request instead of recommend.

Allinall

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

And what has that to do with the topic at hand this morning? Your deflection tactics and petty antics don't wash with me.

I didn't see any sign of Ryan being sleepy this morning?

road_high

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Private property rights are enshrined in the constitution. It's going to be a tricky one for the government to give AGS the power they have suggested. Sounds like a toothless threat tbh, but my opinion is based on very limited general knowledge of Bunreacht Na hEireann. Maybe someone with a more detailed knowledge can explain the realities.

They’re gone to the AG for his scrutiny so I don’t think it’s as straightforward as just giving them these proposed extra powers

_Kaiser_

road_high wrote: »

They’re gone to the AG for his scrutiny so I don’t think it’s as straightforward as just giving them these proposed extra powers

Someone above suggested it could be a constitutional issue. I can't see the general public supporting the notion in a referendum.

John O.Groats

Idbatterim wrote: »

I was fooled once! No party that i would actually happily vote for exists here ...

Hmmm...... That contradicts what you stated before the last GE and repeated again recently when you stated you were strongly considering voting for SF.

odyssey06

Sofa King wrote: »

I will have to go onto the RTE Player and watch Prime Time back just to check the actual wording, but I am pretty certain they said that NPHET requested that Gardaí get extra powers and not that they recommended.
Again, it would come back to why are they in a position to request instead of recommend.

The full text is here. They are in a position to request measures from government and other state agencies, (as are other state agencies), via the proper channels.
Neither a request or recommendation is an order.

They advised that the government "give consideration to implementing the following measures" ... one of which was "Gardai should be given any powers necessary to interrupt and prevent house parties"

See Appendix 1:
https://t.co/CHr1FDxsKj?amp=1

_Kaiser_

John O.Groats wrote: »

Hmmm...... That contradicts what you stated before the last GE and repeated again recently when you stated you were strongly considering voting for SF.

I think the situation with SF is that most people see them as a useful watchdog over the excesses of FF/FG but few who are interested in these things would really want to see them in a decision-making role in Government.

There really is no accountability it seems.

NPHET can do as they please and nothing is their fault. They're only an advisory board.
Govt can just claim that they are following health advise from the experts.

I imagine there will be a lot of shoulder shrugging when the recession starts.
"We are all in this together", says the politician on 100K+ while the local barman watches his home get repossessed.

TomsOnTheRoof

With regards to the Gardaí having the right to enter your household: Though Article 40 of the Constitution states that the dwelling of every citizen is inviolable, it also states that exceptions may be made where they are in accordance with law. Essentially this means that the government may grant AGS such powers and those powers would, in theory, operate within the confines of the Constitution. Now that's not to say that such legislation would, or could, go unchallenged but nevertheless people should be up in arms over even the slightest suggestion of such measures.

Edit: It's important to note that the Dail must be sitting in order to pass any such legislation.

John O.Groats

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Well, there ya have it, the Gardai will soon have the power to enter your home without warrant, only "reasonable suspicion" will be needed in court to make the entry to your property legal...
The Government will tell you this is a "Temporary power" in the interests of "public safety"... however I can see it being extended...

Even if the powers do get extended any law abiding citizen should have no reason to be concerned.

namloc1980

Bring back Leo. He's not great, but he's a million times better than Martin. He's way in over his head.

_Kaiser_

Another report in the press about the argument between Micheal and Leo on yesterday's approach:

The stand-out comment at yesterday's Cabinet meeting, according to some, was not about the rise in Covid-19 cases or the new ­public-health restrictions.

Rather it was Tánaiste Leo Varadkar's comments via a teleconference screen in the meeting room in Government Buildings from his staycation in Co Mayo.

"If we keep doing business like this, we won't be doing business for very long," Varadkar insisted, according to three people who attended the meeting.

I don't have a Indo sub so can't see the full thing but is this the media feeding on the general discontent and making a mountain out of molehill, or is there something deeper to it I wonder?

_Kaiser_

namloc1980 wrote: »

Bring back Leo. He's not great, but he's a million times better than Martin. He's way in over his head.

Leo just has a better speechwriter, but we're in the position we are because of the approach set by him and his Government in March.

facehugger99

Must be absolutely galling to be a young 20something in this country. Your education, travel opportunities, sporting and social outlets all suspended for months with no end in sight accompanied by continuous finger-wagging.

What the fcuk did we expect young people to do with pubs and nightclubs closed for months? Take a vow of chastity for a couple of years until the hysteria mongers feel safe again?

I really hope young people stand up to this. Their very futures are being sacrificed and they are being saddled with billions of our debt.

We are the most cowardly country in Europe and it is shaming to be Irish during this.

odyssey06

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Another report in the press about the argument between Micheal and Leo on yesterday's approach:

I don't have a Indo sub so can't see the full thing but is this the media feeding on the general discontent and making a mountain out of molehill, or is there something deeper to it I wonder?

Not sure where I read it but it was more a 'process' thing, that there should have been a cabinet sub-committee meeting before the full Cabinet meeting to set agenda etc probably involving party leaders and those ministers most affected by the restrictions.

namloc1980

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Leo just has a better speechwriter, but we're in the position we are because of the approach set by him and his Government in March.

That's an absolute stretch. Martin is incoherent and comes across as not having much of a clue. People went along with Leo, on the other hand Martin has lost the dressing room so to speak.