Relaxation of Restrictions, Part V - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

I think people wouldn't want to restrict the elders so much if we were a lot less queasy about people dying.

But we are apparently not prepared to accept deaths. So it is better if they stay in.

PTH2009

None of the government and Health experts have to worry financial with their salarys

Fear for whats going to come later today and what restrictions they introduce/reintroduce

Assetbacked

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think people wouldn't want to restrict the elders so much if we were a lot less queasy about people dying.

But we are apparently not prepared to accept deaths. So it is better if they stay in.

Without wanting to be too cold, the fact is that the median age of deaths "with" covid in Ireland is higher than the median life expectancy in Ireland. It doesn't even look like it is a unique threat to the older people as a result.

HeidiHeidi

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people wouldn't want to restrict the elders so much if we were a lot less queasy about people dying.

But we are apparently not prepared to accept deaths. So it is better if they stay in.

My God, I'm glad I'm not your grandparent :mad:


Death is a fact of life.



We are not prepared to accept deaths which could be avoided, had some people not taken the responsibility in adjusting their lifestyes (just like the elderly and vunerable have had to do) to reduce the spread of a potentially fatal virus.



80% of recent infections are in the under-45s. That's where the deaths will come from, if the virus is let run free.

Assetbacked

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

My God, I'm glad I'm not your grandparent :mad:


Death is a fact of life.



We are not prepared to accept deaths which could be avoided, had some people not taken the responsibility in adjusting their lifestyes (just like the elderly and vunerable have had to do) to reduce the spread of a potentially fatal virus.



80% of recent infections are in the under-45s. That's where the deaths will come from, if the virus is let run free.

Statistically the death rate is 0% for that age group though.

completedit

Covid has been a fascinating insight into how we view death as a species. I lost my parents young so death to me has always just seemed to be a part and parcel of life. To embrace it rather than fear it. There's no good time and I lost my parents suddenly. It shapes how you view death imo. Don't like bringing my own circumstances into it but I just don't see why people take exception to dying from a natural virus. It seems we can accept death but by god, it cannot under any circumstances be because of coronavirus.

I think when we view the virus we have to fundamentally think of it as being a short vs long term trade off. In an ideal world, we'd try to save everyone all of the time. Nobody would die ever. I'd have kept my mum and dad on life support for eternity. But other people needed to have a chance. We all want our grandparents and parents and loved ones to live forever but we shouldn't do it to the detriment of everyone else. Lives are being destroyed as we speak because of this pandemic. Depression soaring. Job losses soaring. Possibilities for a generation dwindling. We have to face facts. It's all well and good if you're sitting in your house, surrounded by family, making some good money working from home but not everyone is in that position to sit on the sidelines and wait for an effective vaccine to appear, if it does appear.

I don't want to be insensitive. My attitude to death is based off my life circumstances. I never knew my grandparents and as I have explained above, the sudden death of my mum and dad means I have had embrace death as a natural course of life. To me, we exist to serve the generations that follow us and personally, knowing the statistics that we know, I don't think it justifies derailing a whole generations young life.

Assetbacked

Assetbacked wrote: »

Without wanting to be too cold, the fact is that the median age of deaths "with" covid in Ireland is higher than the median life expectancy in Ireland. It doesn't even look like it is a unique threat to the older people as a result.

Oh 100%.
Most of the elderly that actually died were in nursing homes were already extremely ill. As in late stages of cancer, COPD, heart disease.

Your average 70 year old will likely be grand.

drunkmonkey

Thierry12 wrote: »

Your right on all that.

It's either stay out of harms way or face the prospect of getting very sick or dieing

We are practically 100% sure the vaccine's work at this stage and we can have them ready next year

They are facing the prospect of getting sick or dieing anyways, I lost my dad to some unknown virus he picked up in hospital 3yrs ago a few days before he was due home, he walked in with a different problem and got it sorted, could he still be here if the hospital was as concious about transmission in hospitals back then, I'm pretty sure he would he, I know exactly what he'd tell me if I ordered him to stay at home.

Locking your parents up and getting them some fresh vaccine in a few months is crazy, your acting like old people are 3yr old with no sense.

lee_baby_simms

completedit wrote: »

Covid has been a fascinating insight into how we view death. I lost my parents young so death to me has always just seemed to be a part and parcel of life. To embrace it rather than fear it. There's no good time and I lost my parents suddenly. It shapes how you view death imo. Don't like bringing my own circumstances into it but I just don't see why people take exception to dying from a natural virus. It seems we can accept death but by god, it cannot under any circumstances be because of coronavirus.

I think Covid has certainly instilled a certain amount of psychosis into the public resulting in a myopic view of seasonal viruses in general.

The fact is that in a few years a bad flu is going to come along and sadly kill just as many people, especially if preceded by a few mild winters. Infants and children will die. In 2014/15 the flu killed 104 children between the ages of 0-14 in the UK.

We're they preventable? Yes. Nationwide lockdown with mandatory quarantines/vaccinations may have worked.

If you suggested that in 2014 you would have been branded insane. But not now.

Penfailed

PTH2009 wrote: »

None of the government and Health experts have to worry financial with their salarys

Fear for whats going to come later today and what restrictions they introduce/reintroduce

Fear? Genuinely? Are you actually scared?

John O.Groats

PTH2009 wrote: »

None of the government and Health experts have to worry financial with their salarys

Fear for whats going to come later today and what restrictions they introduce/reintroduce

If you are going to be afraid of anything then it should be of the Covid-19 virus not fear of any further restrictions measures that may be announced.

growleaves

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

I think Covid has certainly instilled a certain amount of psychosis into the public resulting in a myopic view of seasonal viruses in general.

The fact is that in a few years a bad flu is going to come along and sadly kill just as many people, especially if preceded by a few mild winters. Infants and children will die. In 2014/15 the flu killed 104 children between the ages of 0-14 in the UK.

We're they preventable? Yes. Nationwide lockdown with mandatory quarantines/vaccinations may have worked.

If you suggested that in 2014 you would have been branded insane. But not now.

On the CDC web site they say that in a few early weeks of 2019, influenza accounted for 16% (!!) of all total deaths of Americans.

In April I remember trying to explain to posters who were saying "We're only four months into this thing!" that the April peak would not continue indefinitely for 12 months or more.

But what I didn't expect is that with an average of 0-1 deaths a day people would be claiming "There's evidence the virus is getting worse" (paraphrase of a post on the megathread)

Its no fun living inside of someone else's psychotic delusions.

completedit

Does anyone think that the support of restrictions also show a complete disconnect between quality of life and well-being and the health of our modern economy. In this 2020 world, we are all supposed to be suspicious of economic growth and the economic fundamentals that underpin our lives and I think this has fed into people's contentment to just use this opportunity to instigate certain agendas. You often hear commentators talk of this being a perfect time for a 'reset' or to 'let the planet heal'. We think we can just put the economy into a deep freeze(I know it's much more open now than it was but now uncertainty is rife) and expect to come out the other side unscathed. But, it will be the richer people who actually benefit from all this. The poor, the world over, will suffer disproportionately economically out of these overzealous measures we have taken.

It feels almost taboo to discuss or to raise the possible consequences of the measures on long-term economic prosperity.

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

On the CDC web site they say that in a few early weeks of 2019, influenza accounted for 16% (!!) of all total deaths of Americans.

In April I remember trying to explain to posters who were saying "We're only four months into this thing!" that the April peak would not continue indefinitely for 12 months or more.

But what I didn't expect is that with an average of 0-1 deaths a day people would be claiming "There's evidence the virus is getting worse" (paraphrase of a post on the megathread)

Its no fun living inside of someone else's psychotic delusions.

The worst flu season in the US in the past decade had 61,000 deaths and the average is around 30k.

The official figures for Covid in less than 6 months is now over 170,000 and growing at 1,000 per week. It's likely to get close to 10 times an average flu season by the time 12 months is done

dundalkfc10

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0818/1159815-covid-19-blog/

Jesus Christ

Food Factory's the issue, Solution stop people going outside

Captain_Crash

Deleted User wrote: »

The worst flu season in the US in the past decade had 61,000 deaths and the average is around 30k.

The official figures for Covid in less than 6 months is now over 170,000 and growing at 1,000 per week. It's likely to get close to 10 times an average flu season by the time 12 months is done

The flu has a vaccine tho, so it stands to reason deaths would be lower. And while there is an ave of 30k deaths per year in the US from flu, testing for the flu is not done routinely so its highly likely the number of people dying with flu is substantially higher.



Whereas with covid, everyone gets tested and the deaths in the US much like here are recorded as people "with covid". I'm in no way condoning the response from the US as its been shambolic, but some perspective is needed also.

growleaves

Captain_Crash wrote: »

The flu has a vaccine tho, so it stands to reason deaths would be lower. And while there is an ave of 30k deaths per year in the US from flu, testing for the flu is not done routinely so its highly likely the number of people dying with flu is substantially higher.

Influenza has not been placed under an electron microscope with the media's psychological amplification of every side-effect, suspected death etc.

How many confused people already believe that covid has severe side-effects relative to other diseases like norovirus or glandular fever? You could be laid out for six months after a bacterial infection in a small % of cases and covid is no worse or no better in this respect.

Assetbacked

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0818/1159815-covid-19-blog/

Jesus Christ

Food Factory's the issue, Solution stop people going outside

Absolutely shocking. No spectators at sporting events as meat plants have caused spikes? Pure bollox the Irish restrictions and I hope more people stop following them considering they are completely illogical and just plain wrong!

dundalkfc10

Assetbacked wrote: »

Absolutely shocking. No spectators at sporting events as meat plants have caused spikes? Pure bollox the Irish restrictions and I hope more people stop following them considering they are completely illogical and just plain wrong!

If you buy food for €9 they might let you in

deisedevil

Assetbacked wrote: »

Absolutely shocking. No spectators at sporting events as meat plants have caused spikes? Pure bollox the Irish restrictions and I hope more people stop following them considering they are completely illogical and just plain wrong!

It's doesn't matter who caused the spike! Decisons made to reduce the spread aren't based on who caused it.

Hulk Hands

This is turning into an absolute farce. There seems to be a directive to end all aspects of leisure and fun/enjoyment whatsoever. Nothing is based upon the actual risk of covid spread. It's all aimed at stopping people having any form of a social life. Even the Berlin D2 jump on from the weekend. It looked bad but what annoyed people was the alcohol and dancing to a loud track. There are far far more egregious examples of lack of social distancing involving multiple numbers of people that are ignored.

There has been zero evidence of cases coming from 200 people being spread out outdoors at a sports event, usually held in huge grounds and stadiums. You could understand if this came after evidence of breakouts. Theres none. Your local park on a nice evening is far riskier

Assetbacked

dundalkfc10 wrote: »

If you buy food for €9 they might let you in

If you played the sport as well you'd be immune from the virus and therefore wouldn't need to socially distance yourself from teammates and opposition!

deisedevil

growleaves wrote: »

Influenza has not been placed under an electron microscope with the media's psychological amplification of every side-effect, suspected death etc.

How many confused people already believe that covid has severe side-effects relative to other diseases like norovirus or glandular fever? You could be laid out for six months after a bacterial infection in a small % of cases and covid is no worse or no better in this respect.

So who's pushing this elaborate scam and convincing some of the most intelligent people on the planet to go along with it?

completedit

Hulk Hands wrote: »

This is turning into an absolute farce. There seems to be a directive to end all aspects of leisure and fun/enjoyment whatsoever. Nothing is based upon the actual risk of covid spread. It's all aimed at stopping people having any form of a social life. Even the Berlin D2 jump on from the weekend. It looked bad but what annoyed people was the alcohol and dancing to a loud track. There are far far more egregious examples of lack of social distancing involving multiple numbers of people that are ignored.

There has been zero evidence of cases coming from 200 people being spread out outdoors at a sports event, usually held in huge grounds and stadiums. You could understand if this came after evidence of breakouts. Theres none. Your local park on a nice evening is far riskier

Absolutely. It's so true.

GocRh

Hulk Hands wrote: »

There has been zero evidence of cases coming from 200 people being spread out outdoors at a sports event, usually held in huge grounds and stadiums. You could understand if this came after evidence of breakouts. Theres none. Your local park on a nice evening is far riskier

Case in point - Black Live Matters protests in Dublin. No outbreaks at all as a result.

Captain_Crash

deisedevil wrote: »

So who's pushing this elaborate scam and convincing some of the most intelligent people on the planet to go along with it?

No one is suggesting its a scam. I think he's merely stating that if you placed influenza under similar scrutiny for 8 or 9 months, you would find an awful lot of similarities between the two illnesses.

dundalkfc10

deisedevil wrote: »

It's doesn't matter who caused the spike! Decisons made to reduce the spread aren't based on who caused it.

Why not get proper checks done on where all where the outbreaks are happening?

I can see people saying **** you, Il be attending my local teams GAA match the weekend. They going to have the guards at every game?

Assetbacked

Was this posted today yet?

https://www.irishtimes.com/what-if-herd-immunity-to-coronavirus-is-closer-than-scientists-thought-1.4333022?mode=amp&fbclid=IwAR0JDjaJ-OyY3znRfZvMo3CQdI8P-NoAHlmxCPgpSiF2aPaPCyzLizT7spI

It discusses the possibility for herd immunity being closer than what was originally thought. It outlines some theories and modelling suggesting it may only need 50% and that it is not inconceivable that major cities like NY and London have already achieved it or at least parts anyway. It also outlines that poorer communities are more likely to have antibodies due to living conditions (which throws the mass vaccination needs out the window).

A very promising quote and one which I firmly believe is accurate;

"Another group, led by the mathematician Gabriela Gomes of the University of Strathclyde, in Scotland, accounted for variations within a society in its model and found that Belgium, England, Portugal and Spain have herd immunity thresholds in the range of 10 per cent to 20 per cent.

“At least in countries we applied it to, we could never get any signal that herd immunity thresholds are higher,” Gomes says. “I think it’s good to have this horizon that it may be just a few more months of pandemic.”

Coillte_Bhoy

Assetbacked wrote: »

If you played the sport as well you'd be immune from the virus and therefore wouldn't need to socially distance yourself from teammates and opposition!

When i played underage gaelic football as a corner back i found that i was always socially distanced from my opponent, retired at U-14

growleaves

deisedevil wrote: »

So who's pushing this elaborate scam and convincing some of the most intelligent people on the planet to go along with it?

I didn't say it was an elaborate scam. I'm saying that yellow journalism scare-stories give people a false picture of reality. If people looked at the evidence calmly and thought about it, they would realise the fact that after-effects of individual covid cases appearing in media does not make them more likely to occur than in the cases of other diseases, e.g. norovirus, where every case is not publicised.

That is one just one example of psychological amplification of this phenomenon. In the very early days the media were trying to say that young people were 'just as affected' as the old, and they brought out videos of every young affected person they could lay their hands on.

Television news media and the internet are false contexts. This week we had Gardaí launching an investigation in response to outrage over a TikTok video. We have all failed to take an objective view and chosen to live, to some extent, in a social-media influenced reality.