Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

54and56

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There is far too much focus on the personalities in general when it comes to brexit. This it tittle tattle gossip and adds little. Johnson could be the most ignorant oaf on the planet, but if he had brought something workable to the table this stuff would be glossed over.

Thats all that can be taken from above - he brought nothing new to the table. The rest is noise, not worthy of discussion.

My negotiating experience doesn't stretch to international politics but it does stretch to finding common ground between commercial parties with opposing objectives and I have always found it worthwhile to take the time to understand the person on the other side and build some rapport and respect. It can be boring and sometimes unpalatable but it almost always pays dividends as it's far far easier to secure that last piece of concession from someone who respects (and even better likes) you than someone who doesn't respect you and dislikes you.

If you give people a reason to dislike you you make it very easy for them to stick to their position.

Rrrrrr2

54and56 wrote: »

My negotiating experience doesn't stretch to international politics but it does stretch to finding common ground between commercial parties with opposing objectives and I have always found it worthwhile to take the time to understand the person on the other side and build some rapport and respect. It can be boring and sometimes unpalatable but it almost always pays dividends as it's far far easier to secure that last piece of concession from someone who respects (and even better likes) you than someone who doesn't respect you and dislikes you.

If you give people a reason to dislike you you make it very easy for them to stick to their position.

At the end of the day as humans we deal with and buy off other humans- If they’re likeable, easy to deal with and trustworthy then it helps massively.

I’m sure we’ve all had that obnoxious awkward client or customer we spend the min of time and effort on

maebee

joeysoap wrote: »

question time tonight: ex Australian pm was very good. Explained to anyone listening that the EU was not being vindictive but merely protecting its members. Predictably half the panel weren’t listening. It’s all about sovereignty, ain’t it.

That's what a club does. It protects its members. If one member decides to leave the club that it's been a member of for 50 years, it leaves and suffers the consequences of non-membership of said club. It can't expect the club to change the rules for the departing member.

AutoTuning

He has a track record on this and he's even managed to make racist remarks about Barak Obama, which is likely to haunt him in the new year. It was brought up by a former Obama spokesperson. He's insulted Hillary Clinton, seemingly not realising he might have to encounter her again or that people don't have memories.

If it were a purely technocratic discussion it wouldn't have needed dinner. It's about human interaction.

Unfortunately, in Brussels the general memory of the British is now a bunch of UKIPers in the European Parliament behaving like jingisitic football holigans and some rather cringe inducing speeches by the likes of Farage and Widdecombe.

A lot of people are bemused, others are even very insulted at the accusations that the EU is the USSR or worse when it stands for the total opposite. It's offensive hyperbolic garbage. Most people are weary and just not wanting this to drag on anymore.

They can't be trusted and they're utterly obnoxious. I can't imagine anyone feeling the need to extend the benefit of the doubt.

Rrrrrr2

I want rid at his stage too- they’re sucking up all the oxygen and energy that could be put to much more productive matters.
Basic trade deal to allow industry adjust over time and reduce interaction with the U.K. market abd the U.K. as an entity would suit just fine please

jm08

10000maniacs wrote: »

Replace our grazing land with wheat, we should be 100% flour safe as a country. It's ridiculous that we are not.
Same with potatoes. Its not exactly rocket science to produce potatoes suitable for chips in Ireland.
Ireland was ranked highest in the world as food safe in 2018. Singapore pipped us to number 1 spot in 2019.
We shouldn't have to be so dependent on shipping 52% of our slaughtered meat to the UK.

We don't have a great climate for growing wheat. The climate here is best for grass. The UK are going to continue buying beef from us anyway because they are going to have to get it from somewhere.

AutoTuning

The other obvious conclusion is that the UK is a period of political mayhem, similar to the USA under Trump and is currently not really negotiable with.

So grant a bare bones minimalist deal and let the Tories deal with the domestic consequences, which may well change the political landscape entirely if (and it's likely) they don't deliver their vision of sunlit uplands and golden opportunities and instead cause a massive economic catastrophe.

In a few years time we may end up with a far more pragmatic government in London and desire to build a relationship again.

The only complicating matter has been Northern Ireland, which has hopefully, been solved.

Rrrrrr2

jm08 wrote: »

We don't have a great climate for growing wheat. The climate here is best for grass. The UK are going to continue buying beef from us anyway because they are going to have to get it from somewhere.

We have a great climate for wheat- it’s just hard to get right exactly for milling- a lot is grown for animal feed here and gives some of the worlds best yields. We’ve grown milling wheat for hundreds of years. In south east counties like Kilkenny Wexford and Carlow the town and village river banks are littered with old mill ruins- that tradition became lost to freer trade and competitive advantage

theguzman

Most of our cereal crops are noncompetitive and fossil fuel dependent due to the massive amount of grain drying required. Ireland's climate is getting worse and worse and we receive far too much rain, the majority of the western seaboard should be afforested in native woodland, I live here in Kerry and you could not imagine a more horrible wet damp and cold climate to live in.

mrunsure

theguzman wrote: »

Most of our cereal crops are noncompetitive and fossil fuel dependent due to the massive amount of grain drying required. Ireland's climate is getting worse and worse and we receive far too much rain, the majority of the western seaboard should be afforested in native woodland, I live here in Kerry and you could not imagine a more horrible wet damp and cold climate to live in.

Surely Kerry winters are mild given the proximity to the Atlantic? Valentia Island was the only place I could find with a comprehensive climate chart on Wikipedia. Sure, really wet, but mild winters with an average low of 4.7 in January, compared to 2.4 in Dublin and 2.3 in London.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentia_Island#Climate

Rrrrrr2

theguzman wrote: »

Most of our cereal crops are noncompetitive and fossil fuel dependent due to the massive amount of grain drying required. Ireland's climate is getting worse and worse and we receive far too much rain, the majority of the western seaboard should be afforested in native woodland, I live here in Kerry and you could not imagine a more horrible wet damp and cold climate to live in.

Not true- our heavy rainfall is also an advantage in terms of yield and also no need to irrigate generally.

murphaph

Flour won't be a problem. There's no shortage of it in the EU. Some things are only made in the UK but flour definitely isn't one of them.

ElJeffe

Hopefully a No Deal announcement after the markets close in NY this evening. The sooner the better this has gone on for too long now.

Peregrinus

ElJeffe wrote: »

Hopefully a No Deal announcement after the markets close in NY this evening. The sooner the better this has gone on for too long now.

There'll be no announcement tonight. There's to be a decision on Sunday about the future of the talks; nothing is likely to be announced before that.

And my own view is that there will never be a "no deal" announcement. At most, at some point you'll get an announcement that it is no longer feasible for any deal that may be agreed to be implemented by 1 January, and therefore transition will end with no deal in place, but the talks will continue with a view to putting in place a deal as soon as practicable after 1 January.

Rrrrrr2

Yes talks will keep going regardless of the date tbh- it was utter stupidity to even impose one but such is the level of idiocy you’re dealing with Brexiteers.
So if and when there’s no deal by Jan 01st talks will continue

Henryq.

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Yes talks will keep going regardless of the date tbh- it was utter stupidity to even impose one but such is the level of idiocy you’re dealing with Brexiteers.
So if and when there’s no deal by Jan 01st talks will continue

Would be routine in any process to set a deadline and then extend

Infini

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Yes talks will keep going regardless of the date tbh- it was utter stupidity to even impose one but such is the level of idiocy you’re dealing with Brexiteers.
So if and when there’s no deal by Jan 01st talks will continue

To be fair it was always a given that talks would continue its just that at what point would the change in format be confirmed and the imposition of customs and trade barriers become an absolute certainty.

Thats whats been lacking in all of this. Clarity and mainly by thr British for not defining what they actually wanted in all of this.

Fr Tod Umptious

Infini wrote: »

To be fair it was always a given that talks would continue its just that at what point would the change in format be confirmed and the imposition of customs and trade barriers become an absolute certainty.

Thats whats been lacking in all of this. Clarity and mainly by thr British for not defining what they actually wanted in all of this.

That's because they themselves never knew, they never knew in spring 2016 when the referendum was called and they still don't know.
And there never has been agreement in the UK about what they want.

IAmTheReign

RobMc59 wrote: »

The UK joined the European economic community and as I remember it,that's what it was then,an economic trading bloc so to say it was never a trading bloc is incorrect.

The idea that the UK didn't sign up for what the EU has become is incorrect. As far back as the Treaty of Rome in 1957, long before the UK signed up, it was abundantly clear that the goal of the EEC was about more than just trade. The whole idea was to use economic growth and harmonisation to provide social stability across Europe.

Treaty Establishing the European Community wrote: »

Determined to lay the foundations of an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe,

Resolved to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action to eliminate the barriers which divide Europe,

Affirming as the essential objective of their efforts the constant improvement of the living and working conditions of their peoples,

Recognising that the removal of existing obstacles calls for concerted action in order to guarantee steady expansion, balanced trade and fair competition,

Anxious to strengthen the unity of their economies and to ensure their harmonious development by reducing the differences existing between the various regions and the backwardness of the less favoured regions,

Desiring to contribute, by means of a common commercial policy, to the progressive abolition of restrictions on international trade,

Intending to confirm the solidarity which binds Europe and the overseas countries and desiring to ensure the development of their prosperity, in accordance with the principles of the Charter of the United Nations,

Resolved by thus pooling their resources to preserve and strengthen peace and liberty, and calling upon the other peoples of Europe who share their ideal to join in their efforts,

Have decided to create a European Economic Community and to this end have designated as their Plenipotentiaries:

Widdensushi

theguzman wrote: »

Most of our cereal crops are noncompetitive and fossil fuel dependent due to the massive amount of grain drying required. Ireland's climate is getting worse and worse and we receive far too much rain, the majority of the western seaboard should be afforested in native woodland, I live here in Kerry and you could not imagine a more horrible wet damp and cold climate to live in.

I love these idealistic posts that propose thousands of people lose their livelihoods and hundreds of thousands lose their foodsource, with a rapidly increasing world population it's time to look at a bigger picture of population management before something like this.

Enzokk

Shelga wrote: »

Oh god, John Redwood is on LBC now... will I last more than 30 seconds listening to his rubbish.

Its okay, WTO rules are fine to trade with. There is nothing to be afraid of according to Redwood. The presenter, Tom Swarbrick, didn't do his job so it seems like he is more sympathetic to Brexit, especially with his interview with the Irish Times journalist.

"If WTO rules are okay to trade with, why are countries looking to do FTA's?" It really isn't that difficult.

Enzokk

Update from the EU summit,

https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1337314779019534337?s=20

Not much to update and not really the priority for the EU while it will dominate UK airwaves and newspaper column inches this weekend.

ElJeffe

Rrrrrr2 wrote: »

Yes talks will keep going regardless of the date tbh- it was utter stupidity to even impose one but such is the level of idiocy you’re dealing with Brexiteers.
So if and when there’s no deal by Jan 01st talks will continue

Very doubtful unfortunately. This is the end now. People have to realise that and face up to the consequences of the UK's actions

Panrich

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

[/b]
That's because they themselves never knew, they never knew in spring 2016 when the referendum was called and they still don't know.
And there never has been agreement in the UK about what they want.

Brexit has always been defined in the UK by what they don’t want. No ECJ jurisdiction, no immigration, no external rules, no trade barriers, no tariffs. The problem is that these are incompatible with each other and they’ve never put forward a coherent plan for what they actually want from negotiation with the EU that is consistent with their red lines.

I remember listening to Teresa Mays Lancaster house speech where she set out a vision that cherry picked the best bits of their EU membership with a Utopian future of great new trade deals with China the USA and Japan on top. I was genuinely shocked and appalled and I thought at the time that this was delusional and that she’d never get an EU deal on these terms.

How they could have been so tone deaf is a mystery to me.

Hurrache

Even Mairead McGuinness commenting that there wasn't a sliver of truth on British television last night when it came to discussions around what's happening.

volchitsa

murphaph wrote: »

Flour won't be a problem. There's no shortage of it in the EU. Some things are only made in the UK but flour definitely isn't one of them.

Potatoes, apparently. Weirdly. Saw a report on a news station (forget which one) from Leo Burdocks in Dublin, that said that Irish chips won't have the same taste if they have to source in Europe instead of England. Why Irish potatoes can't be used wasn't explained.

trellheim

As I pointed out before we have no milling capacity ( apart from as someone pointed out, some niche players)

most all our flour - about 200,000+ tonnes a year - comes from UK , tariffs on a no deal would stick about 15c per loaf

see https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/british-mills-look-to-eu-to-keep-irish-bakers-in-flour-post-brexit-1.4011726

we could get it from the EU but right now we don't.

cml387

volchitsa wrote: »

Potatoes, apparently. Weirdly. Saw a report on a news station (forget which one) from Leo Burdocks in Dublin, that said that Irish chips won't have the same taste if they have to source in Europe instead of England. Why Irish potatoes can't be used wasn't explained.

I heard that iterview too and thought, what nonsense.

Do you mean to say Burdock's have always used British potaties. I doubt it.

I would suspect that they get frozen chips (I believe some types do freeze bettr) to save the work in peeling them. As a son of a self proclaimed potatoe expert
Irish potatoes make better chips than British ones.

Seth Brundle

volchitsa wrote: »

Potatoes, apparently. Weirdly. Saw a report on a news station (forget which one) from Leo Burdocks in Dublin, that said that Irish chips won't have the same taste if they have to source in Europe instead of England. Why Irish potatoes can't be used wasn't explained.

Chipping potatoes used here are Maris Pipers which don't like the cooler climate and damp soils in Ireland.
Irish grown potatoes tend to be more floury and suitable for mashing or baking. If you try and chip them they don't taste as nice and they can look burnt.

Hurrache

volchitsa wrote: »

Potatoes, apparently. Weirdly. Saw a report on a news station (forget which one) from Leo Burdocks in Dublin, that said that Irish chips won't have the same taste if they have to source in Europe instead of England. Why Irish potatoes can't be used wasn't explained.

Apparently because of the variety of potato which we don't really grow here.