Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

Oranage2

BattleCorp wrote: »

If clusters can happen in factories, I'd bet my big testicle that they are even more likely to happen in pubs.

The argument is that these factory workers don't earn a lot so they live together in cramped condition and ride share to work 5 to a car.

This wouldn't be the scenario, but as Scotland showed, a cluster of can easily break out.

Saying that it sounds similar to colleges, slightly cramped dorms ride sharing and using busy public transportation, house parties. Colleges opening could be a mess

weldoninhio

BattleCorp wrote: »

If clusters can happen in factories, I'd bet my big testicle that they are even more likely to happen in pubs.

So clusters happen. Whats the big deal? Once they are caught and traced whats the issue. They are going to keep happening.


We were literally told clusters would happen when we decided to open up, why is everyone panicking now when what we were told would happen is happening??

topper75

Donald Trump wrote: »

How quickly can people forget the scenes of devastation and chaos from Italy? It was only a few months ago. Stories about people over a certain age being banned from ICU treatment in order to concentrate on younger people who would have more chance of surviving?



How can you not understand that it is far easier and far less costly to try to keep a control of things by keeping the number as low as possible.


The UK became a shitshow because they kept the pubs open 2 weeks longer than they should have. Do you really think that that was worth it? Two weeks less in the pub might have saved thousands of lives and enabled them to open up on the other end much sooner.

Yeah we didn't have the Italian thing here because we flattened the curve. So why raise the bar to eradication? Open the damn pubs.

The UK was a '****show' for many reasons: concerts, racing, matches, tube, buses, high immigration, overweight population, high BAME contingent. Why are you singling out their pubs - where is your evidence beyond conjecture that pubs in particular drove UK figures?

bucketybuck

weldoninhio wrote: »

We were literally told clusters would happen when we decided to open up, why is everyone panicking now when what we were told would happen is happening??

They still think that nothing should reopen until the virus has gone. And not just gone here, gone everywhere.

And it simply isn't going to happen. That virus is no more going to disappear than the flu is.

So you have people living in fear, like the lad above with the "I want mine" attitude, the whole ****ing world on lockdown so that he can sleep easy.

Macy0161

Amongst all the wailing and nashing of teeth, I heard an epidemiologist say that as this stage it's important that they understand what easings cause what effect on infection rates. For me, it was an important point that's not really been communicated.

tbh at this stage, given the reaction of many to the delay, and the behaviour of those in food pubs and by food pubs themselves, I'm more concerned with under reporting. We can bang on about how "we knew clusters would happen"/ "that's why we have contact tracing" but I'd have very little faith in the proportion of the population that are flouting the rules (either in pubs or elsewhere) self reporting symptoms.

bucketybuck

Macy0161 wrote: »

We can bang on about how "we knew clusters would happen"/ "that's why we have contact tracing" but I'd have very little faith in the proportion of the population that are flouting the rules (either in pubs or elsewhere) self reporting symptoms.

Just wait a few months until the winter flu season starts and every sniffle and sneeze starts causing havoc.

Is it just a cold, is it covid, do we need to shut the office down and send everybody home because Sharon had a temperature etc etc.

never_mind

I genuinely feel so bad for the small pub owners all over Ireland over this ridiculous decision. It seems as though restaurants have not made the covid situation worse and I don't understand how opening pubs would do the same as community transmission is so low at the moment.

I also can't believe how slow the VFI have been in trying to properly campaign or take legal action against the government. I wouldn't be too fond of them if they were my union right now.

Irish Steve

AdamD wrote: »

Bold 1: Yes and some people want to enjoy their lives too, which means rational reactions to the virus. Our response is currently pretty illogical. You see the irony in what you've said right? You don't want my actions to impact your life but are perfectly happy to dictate mine.

I prefer to trust the people who in some cases have spent their entire working life dealing with similar medical scenarios to Covid rather than a keyboard warrior (not you) that has spent 5 minutes reading Trumps latest outbursts before they are supressed by Facebook and Twitter as fake news!

I'm not making the decisions about what it right or wrong, a team of experienced professionals are advising government, and government are in fact not going as far or as hard as the professionals are advising. Maybe they should, but that would mean even more restrictions. Life should be more than spending long hours in a pub, mine certainly is, and yes, right now, my life is affected by the Covid restrictions, and all I can do is suck it up and find something else to do, which may be a while, this virus is going nowhere any time soon, and there are no guarantees about an effective vaccine.

Bold 2: Pure conjecture, is it lengthening our problem? They aren't linking cases to these pubs. Currently, our problem is being lengthened by clusters in factories.

Right now, yes, our spikes are not pub related, but places like Aberdeen opened up their pubs earlier than us, and this virus has a 2-14 day incubation period, so the people looking at the impact of re opening and the like are looking very closely at what's happening in other countries that were ahead of us, and they are not liking what they are seeing, and are responding accordingly. 50+ cases already from one pub, and a number of those 50 cases visited more than one pub, there is a list of 20 that are also affected, and people have been advised that if they visited any of those 20, they should consider self isolating as a result.

Bold 3: The government have presented this as the 'choice', one or the other, can't have both. They've shown nothing to support that claim.

And no one has presented any evidence to debunk the experts, who have access to information that none of us do.

The Melbourne thing is not accurate at all. Lots led to that spike, not just sharing of a lighter. The security guards were riding the people who were supposed to be isolating for God's sake.

That's even more speculative than the comments I made, and unproven.

This virus remains "live" on plastic and metal surfaces for up to 72 hours. I know very few main line drinkers that can spend time in a pub without visiting the jacks, and short of giving each person gloves to use when opening the doors, or having a line of mandatory use hand sanitisers outside those doors, knowing the way a significant percentage of men act, the risks to all users is massive, and changing that behaviour won't be happening any time soon, even more so if significant pints have been had.

The intention of having a food based pub environment with specific time limits was to reduce the number of pints taken, and reduce traffic inside the building, and the way that some places are already (questionably) operating is making a nonsense of the clear guidance, and the people looking at the way it's working are rightly expressing serious concern.

No, I'm not enjoying the "new normal", as it's very much not the normal that I have spent nearly 70 years living through, but given the circumstances of a pandemic that is more devastating than anything that's been seen in a number of centuries, I find is more than slightly incredible the number of people who cannot make the mental adjustment to accept that we cannot just carry on as normal. That's been tried in some countries, and the ongoing consequences are not pretty.

When we eventually get to the other side of this pandemic, there will for sure be serious questions to be answered about how (all) governments dealt with it, and not all the decisions made in some countries have been good, but I can only give some slack to the people at the top, with a few notable exceptions in other countries they are doing their best in a situation that no one has faced for a number of centuries, so there's no clear guidance about how to deal with it.

mountgomery burns

The worst thing about that sanctimonious post above was the suggestion that hand sanitization is less likely in pubs than elsewhere.

An obvious example of the sort of prejudice the industry is facing.

never_mind

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The worst thing about that sanctimonious post above was the suggestion that hand sanitization is less likely in pubs than elsewhere.

An obvious example of the sort of prejudice the industry is facing.

My OH noted there wasn't hand sanitiser directly outside the toilet in our local gastropub.

People, if you use the toilet use the f'ing soap and water they provide. If you feel the need, go find sanitiser that you can also fit in your póca. Simples.

listermint

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The worst thing about that sanctimonious post above was the suggestion that hand sanitization is less likely in pubs than elsewhere.

An obvious example of the sort of prejudice the industry is facing.

lol, having used the mens toilets since i could use the mens toilets I can tell you every second edgit doesnt wash their hands after their business.

mountgomery burns

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The worst thing about that sanctimonious post above was the suggestion that hand sanitization is less likely in pubs than elsewhere.

An obvious example of the sort of prejudice the industry is facing.

I'd imagine that's quite likely to be honest.
Lads who don't wash their hands and can't piss without drowning their shoes wouldn't be diligent hand sanitisers after a few pints IMO.

kenmc

bucketybuck wrote: »

Just wait a few months until the winter flu season starts and every sniffle and sneeze starts causing havoc.

Is it just a cold, is it covid, do we need to shut the office down and send everybody home because Sharon had a temperature etc etc.

Perhaps though, the flu season will be much less severe than normal, due to increased awareness of hand and respiratory hygiene, social distance etc, so fingers xxd all of the measures in place to reduce covid transmission similarly impacts flu and cold transmission likewise

Xenji

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The worst thing about that sanctimonious post above was the suggestion that hand sanitization is less likely in pubs than elsewhere.

An obvious example of the sort of prejudice the industry is facing.

Now admittedly it has been a few years since I last worked in a pub but let me tell you that the soap dispensers rarely needed topping up or replacing in the mens toilets.

John O.Groats

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The worst thing about that sanctimonious post above was the suggestion that hand sanitization is less likely in pubs than elsewhere.

An obvious example of the sort of prejudice the industry is facing.

The previous poster made valid points actually.

weldoninhio

Irish Steve wrote: »

Right now, yes, our spikes are not pub related, but places like Aberdeen opened up their pubs earlier than us, and this virus has a 2-14 day incubation period, so the people looking at the impact of re opening and the like are looking very closely at what's happening in other countries that were ahead of us, and they are not liking what they are seeing, and are responding accordingly. 50+ cases already from one pub, and a number of those 50 cases visited more than one pub, there is a list of 20 that are also affected, and people have been advised that if they visited any of those 20, they should consider self isolating as a result.

How many hospitalisations from the Aberdeen cluster? Deaths? Like I said, and you conveniently ignored, we've had much larger clusters in Kildare over the past 2 weeks. Minimal hospitalistations, zero deaths, minimal impact on our health service. Our numbers in hospital went to 17 at one stage last week but is back down to 9 now, with no increase in ICU or ventilations.

So why freak out about "clusters" once they are under control, no one is dying or even needing hospital treatment.

MOH

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Basically the same guidelines as are in place now, 2m apart no pre booking and no time limit, 1m apart booking and limit.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-time-limits-and-no-pre-booking-what-the-unpublished-pub-reopening-guidelines-reveal-1.4323118

Yep, pretty much the same as the food-serving pubs which are open.

Arguments that "oh but people might break the rules are nonsense".
Plenty of restaurants are breaking the rules and packing people in - we're not closing them all down.
People are on the Luas right now without masks - not closed down.
Plenty of reports of hairdressers breaking the rules during lockdown - they're still open.

The notion that if pubs were opened on a regional basis hordes of people would descend on the area is easily disproven by the fact that pubs have been open in the North for weeks and the M1 isn't clogged.
Plus pubs being closed hasn't stopped gangs of people renting holiday homes anyway.

There also seem to be a depressingly large number of people who've never in a proper pub, and seem to think every pub in the country is like Temple Bar, packed to the brim with hammered 25-year-olds.

It's bizarre to single out a whole industry (or weirder, a subset thereof) and blame it when it hasn't been open for 5 months.
While simultaneously handwaving things schools going back ("kids can't get it!") , and totally ignoring clear ongoing issues like total lack of quarantine enforcement for people coming into the country.
It's the same old half-blindness we've had all the way through - can't have more than 4 people meet up, can't have more than ten at a funeral, but 4000 people turn up for a protest march and not even a word of criticism.
Just do the things that are politically easy to do, and don't poke your head above the parapet.

At this stage I'm getting seriously worried. I honestly believe it's just sheer luck that we've gotten away with it so far, I've zero faith in the government to cope when things do get really bad.

Fann Linn

Macy0161 wrote: »

Amongst all the wailing and nashing of teeth, I heard an epidemiologist say that as this stage it's important that they understand what easings cause what effect on infection rates. For me, it was an important point that's not really been communicated.

tbh at this stage, given the reaction of many to the delay, and the behaviour of those in food pubs and by food pubs themselves, I'm more concerned with under reporting. We can bang on about how "we knew clusters would happen"/ "that's why we have contact tracing" but I'd have very little faith in the proportion of the population that are flouting the rules (either in pubs or elsewhere) self reporting symptoms.

Another epidemiologist said this morning that even with a vaccine there is no guarantee of reinfection not occurring.
So should we just shut the pubs forever?

Charles Babbage

MOH wrote: »

Yep, pretty much the same as the food-serving pubs which are open.

Arguments that "oh but people might break the rules are nonsense".
Plenty of restaurants are breaking the rules and packing people in - we're not closing them all down.
People are on the Luas right now without masks - not closed down.
Plenty of reports of hairdressers breaking the rules during lockdown - they're still open.

This is true, but surely the consequence of this is that proper enforcement of these things should be in place before opening more things.

Donald Trump

topper75 wrote: »

Yeah we didn't have the Italian thing here because we flattened the curve. So why raise the bar to eradication? Open the damn pubs.

The UK was a '****show' for many reasons: concerts, racing, matches, tube, buses, high immigration, overweight population, high BAME contingent. Why are you singling out their pubs - where is your evidence beyond conjecture that pubs in particular drove UK figures?

ah, so it was the dirty foreigners that did it for them so, was it?


You are calling for evidence that packing drunk people into enclosed spaces contributed to the spread of a contagious airborne respiratory disease, but at the same time you decide that the blame lies with immigrants and UK born Blacks and Asians.





You can do without a pint for a few more weeks. Stay strong.



Before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, I am not calling foreigners dirty. Just using it to point out the absurdity of the attitude blaming them

dundalkfc10

MOH wrote: »

Yep, pretty much the same as the food-serving pubs which are open.

Arguments that "oh but people might break the rules are nonsense".
Plenty of restaurants are breaking the rules and packing people in - we're not closing them all down.
People are on the Luas right now without masks - not closed down.
Plenty of reports of hairdressers breaking the rules during lockdown - they're still open.

The notion that if pubs were opened on a regional basis hordes of people would descend on the area is easily disproven by the fact that pubs have been open in the North for weeks and the M1 isn't clogged.
Plus pubs being closed hasn't stopped gangs of people renting holiday homes anyway.

There also seem to be a depressingly large number of people who've never in a proper pub, and seem to think every pub in the country is like Temple Bar, packed to the brim with hammered 25-year-olds.

It's bizarre to single out a whole industry (or weirder, a subset thereof) and blame it when it hasn't been open for 5 months.
While simultaneously handwaving things schools going back ("kids can't get it!") , and totally ignoring clear ongoing issues like total lack of quarantine enforcement for people coming into the country.
It's the same old half-blindness we've had all the way through - can't have more than 4 people meet up, can't have more than ten at a funeral, but 4000 people turn up for a protest march and not even a word of criticism.
Just do the things that are politically easy to do, and don't poke your head above the parapet.

At this stage I'm getting seriously worried. I honestly believe it's just sheer luck that we've gotten away with it so far, I've zero faith in the government to cope when things do get really bad.

The pubs in Newry, Crossmaglen, Jonesboro etc are packed with people from the "free state"

I'm sure Derry is the same and every other border area

MOH

mountgomery burns wrote: »

The worst thing about that sanctimonious post above was the suggestion that hand sanitization is less likely in pubs than elsewhere.

An obvious example of the sort of prejudice the industry is facing.

By March 13th my local had installed hand sanitiser inside the doors and outside the toilets. Took supermarkets about 2 weeks to get around to that.

Charles Babbage wrote: »

This is true, but surely the consequence of this is that proper enforcement of these things should be in place before opening more things.

Sure. So no more talk of schools reopening until these issues have been addressed.

PommieBast

Donald Trump wrote: »

ah, so it was the dirty foreigners that did it for them so, was it?

Actual problem was things like having direct flights from Wuhan to Heathrow when China had itself banned domestic flights from Wuhan to other cities. Only last month I flew into Heathrow and even then there were zero anti-Covid19 controls.

Donald Trump

PommieBast wrote: »

Actual problem was things like having direct flights from Wuhan to Heathrow when China had itself banned domestic flights from Wuhan to other cities. Only last month I flew into Heathrow and even then there were zero anti-Covid19 controls.

That was a serious problem of course. That was how the virus "got in" (although if I remember correctly, the first identified super-spreader was a person from the UK who seeded it around ski-resorts in Europe).


Once it is in though, it spreads. And a pub environment is one obvious (to most rational people) environment conducive to the spread of such a virus. Public transport is another of course.



But I don't get this attitude of having this hierarchy of things, with publicans on the top of the hierarchy, whereby pubs should only have to consider restrictions when every other single restriction possible in across the entire society must have already be in place and shown to be 100% effective.



"Everything is closed. Grand that's the way it should be"
"Oh wait, my cousin's friend's father's dog's previous owners' sister came back from London and only did 13 days of restricted movements"
"Right. We obviously better open up all the pubs again so"


How many of the people on here calling for pubs to be opened are also as adamant that schools and everything else should open too?

topper75

Donald Trump wrote: »

ah, so it was the dirty foreigners that did it for them so, was it?

I picked up the BAME peculiarity in a leftist rag:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/why-are-people-from-bame-groups-dying-disproportionately-of-covid-19


As you well know they aren't to be trusted and I shouldn't have mentioned it. Apologies.

US2

These gastro pub owners can't believe their luck I'd say. Raking it in

nacho libre

Fann Linn wrote: »

Another epidemiologist said this morning that even with a vaccine there is no guarantee of reinfection not occurring.
So should we just shut the pubs forever?

This is similar to what an Oxford Epidemiologist said a couple of weeks ago. I do feel sorry for single old fellas living in isolated rural areas where the local pub is their only real social outlet. In some of these pubs you'd maybe have the same 9 or 10 men in the pub all week. I don't think the risk of these men spreading the virus is any greater than people in a packed bar serving food in a tourist hotspot last weekend.

hmmm

weldoninhio wrote: »

So why freak out about "clusters" once they are under control, no one is dying or even needing hospital treatment.

You make it sound like clusters come under control in some very simple and easy manner.

In reality a case is discovered after they have been symptomatic for a few days, possibly in hospital which will mean they've been infectious for perhaps two weeks, which then kicks off a desperate attempt to know everywhere they have been, find everyone they have been in contact with and track them down. This doesn't even include all the surfaces they have touched which will never be located and cleaned. It's all very well if they've travelled to and from work and home in their own car, but if that person has then gone to a pub or travelled on public transport the number of potentially infected has just rocketed.

Contact tracing is an exercise in risk-reduction, it isn't guaranteed to stop spread. Clearly in Aberdeen given the number of pubs now being mentioned, the contact tracers have decided that they have no way of knowing how many potentially infected there are, and so the entire city now faces at least two weeks of lockdown.

niallo27

nacho libre wrote: »

This is similar to what an Oxford Epidemiologist said a couple of weeks ago. I do feel sorry for single old fellas living in isolated rural areas where the local pub is their only real social outlet. In some of these pubs you'd maybe have the same 9 or 10 men in the pub all week. I don't think the risk of these men spreading the virus is any greater than people in a packed bar serving food in a tourist hotspot last weekend.

A lot of these people would either depend on a bit of local GAA or the pub for a bit of social contact and now both are gone.

dundalkfc10

A Pub in Dundalk just had this on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/McAlesters/?epa=SEARCH_BOX

�� GOOD NEWS ALERT ��

We’re delighted to announce that from tomorrow evening, we’ll to reopening with a food menu which will be served in conjunction with our good friends in Tony’s Pizzeria.

All Government guidelines have been implemented and will be strictly adhered too.

To make a booking, please private message us on Facebook.

Things are different for us all now so we thank you in advance for your patience and support.


The pub is in one end of the Town and the Pizza place is the other end of town.

By next weekend, every pub in town will be open