What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP
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Britain is naturally multicultural due to empire. Seems a bit odd for countries without that past to follow that model but it is the prevailing trend in the west. If cultures were demographically fragile like North West Europe in other parts of the world, there would be a fuss about them being wiped out. Not in the west though.
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I didn’t dismiss the Bible because it was inconvenient, I dismissed your attempt to appeal to religion as facetious. You’re determined to maintain the view that my views are informed by mass media either way precisely because it’s inconvenient for you to acknowledge any other reason for anyone holding views which don’t align with yours.
It would be like me arguing that you’d speak Irish all the time if maintaining and promoting Irish ethnicity was that important to you. It’s nothing more than a facetious argument. Instead I understand why you’re not speaking Irish, because it would be difficult to make yourself understood by anyone who isn’t familiar with the Irish language.
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Multicultural. We really need to be careful about what it means. There is a difference between the modern sense of multiculturalism and simply that a nation is composed of many cultures.
Britain has always been ruled by England, with the English culture being held high above all others. When the British had their colonies in America or India, it was the expectation that the locals with adopt English cultural norms as part of being their subjects. There were definite benefits for doing so. Which is why Scottish and Irish nobles learned English (or French) and adopted their sense of fashion.. or sent their children to English finishing schools, or sent them to serve in the British Army. (although in each case, they were expected to be civilised by English culture.. not Scottish or Welsh culture)
The point being that Britain had previously believed in Assimilation. The expectation that others would adopt English culture as their own, firstly because it was superior (as shown by their success as an empire), and secondly, due to the benefits of doing so. Those that didn't faced a wide range of negatives for not conforming.
Modern multiculturalism does not allow assimilation. Integration is newer term, and even that is rather vague. The failures of integration are broad, although there have been some limited successes. However, it's not based on the previous method of forcing (through the benefits received) others to adjust. Instead, the ideal is to have individual cultures existing alongside the native culture... which sounds lovely, but tends to fail in practice.
Multiculturalism in the modern sense is failing badly, and that's reflected in the changing perspectives of European nations with the tightening of immigration laws, and the attention being given to citizenship. The US is probably the most prominent nation to show as being multicultural, but (even without dealing with the problems with African Americans), is tearing itself apart as each group seeks to elevate their own identity, while also claiming benefits as minorities. The US is (and always has been) and incredibly divided country, but that's been exasperated with further additions of other cultural groups with their own expectations and rights to be distinctly different from other Americans. Lot's of lovely ideas about identity and personal freedom, but ultimately leading to division and higher costs (economic, crime, etc)
The same is happening in Europe. It's been happening in the UK too, but in many ways, the UK is the greatest success of multiculturalism... although.. that's only if you skip past the wide range of downsides.
I've said it before. I'm not against multiculturalism. Per se. I'm an expat. I've lived most of my adult life in other countries, and I love that there can be such a variety of peoples. However, the western model of multiculturalism doesn't work. In my experience, the most successful model of multiculturalism is Asian, where other cultural groups don't have any rights, and the native culture remains dominant. Few of the problems that have cropped up in Western nations have cropped up in Asia, and even when they have, their effects are muted. It works.
For the people who want everyone to be free, and have rights for everything, it would be horrible. For everyone else though, I suspect it's the most viable model for a multicultural society. The problem I see with the Western model is that the native groups invariably get sidelined or marginalised, to give preferential treatment, or to provide supports for others... so that there will be an eventual pushback, and that pushback will not be pleasant considering Western history regarding race and culture.
Oh, and the northern cultures would have originally have been considered the most resilient cultures to others both because of their homogeneous populations, but also the nature of their cultures themselves. The last 30 years has shown the lie to that assumption though. Scandinavia is fucked, due to their immigration patterns. Which is a shame, since traditionally, they've been very very stable societies.
OP... i get that most of what I said is actually supporting your own argument, although it reads like I'm arguing against you. Your post inspired some thoughts... :D
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The EU tries play both sides of the road on migration, on one had they pretend to try stop it, on the other they claim we need this migration and keep trying to repackage migrant quotas....they're basically destroying Europe
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I dunno. I suspect that someone could easily say that the EU made Europe. A lot of our current prosperity has come from it. The problem I see is that the bureaucrats have taken control, with the politicians becoming their mouthpieces. We have to remember that most nations in Europe were previously pro-immigration. They believed the past economic models (and in many cases, still do), that said that having more workers was beneficial, by solely looking at the economic returns while ignoring the growing problems in society. And to be fair, it was understandable to do so, because that's the way it's always been. The attention given to past social/economic structures tends to focus on nations which had an extensive manufacturing base for their industry, as opposed to the services (financial services, and such) industry that has sprung up to take over the majority of national incomes. It's why there is so much attention given to import/export when, in fact, a huge chunk of national businesses are intangible products.
I'm of the opinion that American social sciences have changed Western culture, and it is the beliefs/theories from that area, which were adopted into government (departmental bureaucrats/public service) that have shaped the problems now coming from immigration. Slowly, nations are starting to understand that taking American ideas doesn't translate well across the ocean, but also that most of these ideas are untested for their long-term effects, and so, most of the negatives weren't accounted for.
I don't think the EU is destroying Europe. That's an extreme take, and seems to take the position that we cannot change what has gone before. That we cannot roll back the acceptance of foreign peoples, nor can we reevaluate the position of citizenship (EU or National). It assumes that just because we've given out rights, that those rights can't be removed.
I've said it many times on the thread, that if you look at non-western nations you will see a very different approach to immigration, and the rights of foreign born people. It's only in the West that there is this all-embracing expectation of acceptance for foreign groups... and if that's the case, then the West can change to become more like the rest of the world.. by simply dropping it's misplaced superiority and recognise the practicalities of the situation.
That includes putting the UN in it's place, who have decided a range of rules that only the West seems to accept in terms of refugees and such. Again, outside of the West, the application and enforcement of UN mandates are few and far between.
So... as for the EU, I expect to see it shifting in attitude just as we've seen nations shift in Europe. France has gone critical of immigration and the belief in integration. Denmark too. Poland has remained as it always was. Even Germany, the most staunch supporter of multiculturalism, has switched position a number of times because of rising unrest within it's own borders. Now, we have the problems with Scandinavian nations, and while they've always remained somewhat aloof from the EU, they do have influence to bring to bear.
The point being that, thankfully, attitudes are changing. The realities of the effects of mass immigration, and the failure of the haphazard integration policies are being made real.. so.. the EU will change too.
TBH I'm a little concerned that the EU will have adopted another American trait. Going to extremes. So, as they swing away from being pro-immigration, will they swing too far to the opposite end of things? Since I do feel that skilled immigration is a benefit to most nations, but we have to take into consideration how societies will change as result of the infusion of foreign beliefs.
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I'm convinced EU membership will be disastrous for us as a nation,a people ,an identity and our culture. We're a small island nation, under the EUs FOM we've opened up our country to over 450 million people that's without migration from outside the EU. I've seen their groups on Facebook "Croatians in ireland" "Russians in irelqnd" etc. and the way they denigrate this country ,its people and traditions....its actually depressing, we've turned into an economic hostel, really dumb idea
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The government is planning an amnesty for immigrants here illegally. They reckon there is 20k here illegally!!
Once they get their amnesty they will have access to the dole and rent allowance etc.
I wonder how many will continue to live in bunk beds, 20 people per house V how many will put the hand up for an almost free house?
Fair play to whoever in government came out with the 20k figure and managed to keep a straight face at the same time!
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Opening up Ireland to the rest of Europe was the best thing that happened to this country. Seriously. I don't know how old you are, but I remember what Ireland was like when it was just Irish people and tourists... and it was a depressing kind of place. Inward looking, and not terribly nice about how it dealt with itself. The infusion of Europeans, not just the British, has woken Irish people up to a sense of national pride, removing the constant desire to bow our heads with the cap in hands, while we struggle to see ourselves as equal to the more historical/powerful nationalities. I've spoken to others of my generation (mid 40s), and we all share a similar feeling about the change in Irish people. A degree of confidence in dealing with others, that has only come from the interaction with them.. and they had no reason to come here before Ireland joined the EU. Apart from the fat Americans, and English tourists, that is.
As for our Identity, the above describes part of it. Having the confidence to stand up and be proud of being Irish. Whatever it means to be Irish. I used to think I knew what it was, but then I lived abroad, and it felt superficial, compared to the cultures I encountered, and the lengths that other peoples went to show off their national cultures. Sure, we have our moments, but.. honestly, I never really felt Irish people really showed any pride in being Irish except when drinking, or fighting.
This thread has repeatedly covered what Irish culture is to different people, trying to define it so that it can be used as position of defense against multiculturalism. I tend to see Irish culture as being a range of values, and perceptions, although I know that's been covered/disputed earlier in the thread. In the end, I honestly don't truly know what Irish culture is anymore.
Anyway, the big threat to Irish individuality compared to other cultures is not the EU, but our own politicians. We've seen successive governments come in seeking to bring in American culture so much that it's managed to infest our civil service, and our universities. That didn't come, initially, from the EU (although it's there now). It came from government led virtue signalling efforts.
The EU is a mess. It "evolved" into something that it should never have been allowed to become. Another UN but for Europe, and encouraged to rule on issues that it should never been allowed to influence. Immigration is part of that, but so too is their interference in other nations domestic policies. It should have remained an economic organisation, which is something that it tends to muddle along doing fairly well. But it's attention has drifted, to include a wide range of other issues, and now everything is suffering as a result.
Thankfully, though, it will change back, because it has no other option but to do so. France has shifted sides. All it takes now is the population of Germany to get angry enough to force their government to shift sides... and then, we'll see a greater emphasis on European culture being important.
Because, quite honestly, that's what I would like to see Europe developing into. A primary fusion European culture, with individual protected national cultures, but ultimately a unification of Europe (without this desire to keep expanding with obviously non-European countries)
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I'm mid 40s too, though I'd have to disagree with you,I'm from a small town that's seen massive inward migration, youre twice as likely to hear a foreign language walking down the main street than an Irish accent, its not the town I remember...more cold,less cohesive.
I'm just back from travelling 5 different countries in Europe, I'll tell you one thing they don't have....that's the friendliness of Irish people, some dog ignorant,abrasive fcuks in Europe, it was kinda a relief getting home as at least you know what to expect with an Irish person. Even smiling when you walk into a shop and saying hello gets you a look like "what are smiling for,what possibly is there for you to be smiling about?" They nearly look at you as a bit special.
Agreed on the EU ,it really should have been left at the EEC
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I'm mid 40s too, though I'd have to disagree with you,I'm from a small town that's seen massive inward migration, youre twice as likely to hear a foreign language walking down the main street than an Irish accent, its not the town I remember...more cold,less cohesive.
I'm from a midlands town, so I suspect we have a similar background. My hometown has been "swamped" with foreigners, but they're mostly Chinese, Indians/Pakistanis, and Africans. Quite a few Polish, and Latvians too. My point in the previous post was solely aimed at European immigration rather than a reference to everyone who migrated here. I do admit I have a positive opinion of Asian immigration though.
IMHO The Celtic tiger. the arrival of prosperity, and the focus of being "healthy" (the Nanny State) which decreased the importance of the pubs, killed off most attempts at retaining the local community spirit. You can see the same thing happening in virtually any nation that has changed from being relatively poor to being wealthy within a short period of time... and I wouldn't say it was due to immigration. TBH the poles and the Latvians with their attendance at Church have ensured that many of the community groups in my hometown have actually continued, in the face of dropping attendance from Irish people. (most community activities while not directly related to the Church, tend to be organised by the more dedicated Church goers.. at least in my area anyway).
I'm just back from travelling 5 different countries in Europe, I'll tell you one thing they don't have....that's the friendliness of Irish people, some dog ignorant,abrasive fcuks in Europe, it was kinda a relief getting home as at least you know what to expect with an Irish person. Even smiling when you walk into a shop and saying hello gets you a look like "what are smiling for,what possibly is there for you to be smiling about?" They nearly look at you as a bit special.
Yeah, I can understand that perception about Europe, although, I've found many areas to be the opposite too. Still, I think culturally, there is a greater degree of something hidden when it comes to Europeans. With the Spanish, and Italians, there's a certain what can they get from you, so many encounters feel.. transnational rather than friendly. Still, TBH, on returning to Ireland after living abroad, I felt that many Irish people had gone the same way.. losing a certain nice kind of innocence or naivety.
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Agreed. You really need to do some travelling to see that the Irish are honestly some of the best social creatures on earth. It's without doubt one of our greatest strengths. I remember being out in Dublin, and starting a random conversation with a German couple, which is something us Irish love to do. At first the Germans were very suspicious, they thought I wanted something, or had some agenda. Thankfully they quickly realized that I was without an agenda, and was simply doing what us Irish love do: be friendly. I meet some Belgians in Westport only a few weeks ago, who come here solely because of how friendly we are. One of them remarked that in Belgium, when you go out, you stick with your friends, and never talk to anyone else, which of course is the opposite of Irish culture.
“The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”-― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov4 -
Sorry, but bollix. Ireland were in Europe since 1973. It did fcuk all to 'awaken the irish spirit' then, or during the 80's. Euro 88 and Italia 90 did more for the Irish psyche than joining the EU.
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I'd say there has been 4-5 decades of Ireland being a definite part of Europe and that played a major role in changing the country, and it's people towards the modern society that exists today.
In any case, the EU has been good for Ireland, and I don't see any reason to think that has changed. Our immigration and cultural issues can be solved by our desire to do so, rather than passing the buck on to Europe, dismissing our own responsibility for what's happened.
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I used to be on an Ireland travel based group, one of the things that regularly popped up was a question of what drew people to Ireland, 9 times out of 10 the answer was the people followed by culture and scenery and that they hoped we protect it.only the other day I seen someone a foreign national living here on reddit remarking on it and then adding that they hoped the influx of migration doesn't ruin it.
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I sometimes think that people tend to forget that the town not being “the town you remember” has as much to do with the fact that the town you remember was inhabited by a younger you and your younger peers. You were young and life had all the fun and potential of youth, and now the world has changed and it’s inhabited by the older and potentially more cynical you. Everything seems to suck a little more than it did in the Golden Age Of Ireland — an era which funnily enough always seems to coincide with years that people are in the prime of their youth. Yet elders of your younger days probably tutted at how little respect the youth had — and I’m sure that many of the Irish people of yesteryear would be horrified by the unreligious, pro-gay marriage / adoption and pro-choice little Godless divils their descendants have become. They in turn probably harked back to their version of the Golden Age, when the town was “less cold and more cohesive”.
And to be honest, your views on continental Europe are wildly generalised. There are bigger populations on the continent, a far wider source of people where you will naturally find a greater variation in the manner and customs of each individual you encounter — and most foreigners travelling find themselves in urban or touristy areas where you will simply find a wider variety of people and less friendly and even dangerous types. I lived in Belgium before and the shopkeeper and customer would always exchange a bonjour on entering the shop and a bonne journée while leaving — I also lived in France where the much-maligned French people are actually perfectly fine and I made many friends there. Indeed, the Southern Europeans find our kissless form of greeting, our general awkwardness about physical contact and our emotional stoicism cold. I’ve heard many foreigners who come here talk about how friendly and fun the Irish are, but so difficult to become friends with and to be allowed into their close circle of friends.
Friendliness is definitely a thing in Irish culture, but there are people who really seem to overplay it when making comparisons to other countries. Would we be considered so abnormally friendly by the wider world if we weren’t an English speaking country?
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Yet elders of your younger days probably tutted at how little respect the youth had — and I’m sure that many of the Irish people of yesteryear would be horrified by the unreligious, pro-gay marriage / adoption and pro-choice little Godless divils their descendants have become. They in turn probably harked back to their version of the Golden Age, when the town was “less cold and more cohesive”.
I'd be the opposite and I love how much Ireland has changed, with the decline of the "lad" culture. I can remember when boys were beaten up due to the risk of being called gay, regardless of whether they actually were, just as people whose fashion sense leaned towards punk or Goths, were also harassed and experienced mob violence. Oh, I do think that Ireland has lost or some aspects which were great have diminished as a result of the changing society, but overall, we're a much better society now than when I was growing up.
I do think there's a lot of looking back with rose tinted glasses... I left Ireland originally, both due to economic/financial reasons, but also because I was sick to death of the depressing and ignorant culture I grew up in. Now, I get that many Irish people don't feel that way, and liked their lifestyles, but I didn't... and I was incredibly impressed as time went by, and I came home for short visits, to see Irish people embracing a very different range of cultural behaviors, and attitudes. I don't agree/like all that has changed, but mostly, I'd see it as a definite improvement over what went before.
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It's nothing to do with that to be honest, it's definitely a changed place from multiculturalism and not for the better,less of a sense of community
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Maybe, but I wonder whether that sense of community was disappearing before multiculturalism or immigration became any kind of real issue?
You can't remove certain foundational blocks, like the faith Irish people had in the Catholic Church, or the movement away from the Pubs as being a central place for meeting and socialising, without it affecting the community. When I was a early adult, the three places that people met were, Church, the Pub, and for those interested, in sports. Beyond that, there was very little going on.
Even on a local level, I'd say the community aspect was already dying by the time I was in my early 20s. In my parents residential estate, as children, we knew everyone there... playing with their kids, or knowing the adults through extension of our own parents. They'd meet to do the occasional film night, drinks in someone's garden, but most of that stopped by the time they'd reached their mid 40s. Today, there's very little going on for the estate except when it comes to a meeting to discuss problems in the estate. No parties, or gettogethers. Everyone is tucked away into their own lives, and beyond the most superficial of greetings, and catching up.. there's nothing more there.
I'd question the when and how this sense of community started to die in Ireland. I made the point that it tends to happen to countries that were poor, but become prosperous, because I saw the same thing happen in China, where community spirit died as people focused more on building wealth, than keeping bonds with their neighbors. I know from conversations with some Polish friends, that they feel the same thing is happening there since their entry into the EU, and again, for similar reasons.. the focus on wealth or simply because people were working too much to keep what little they had. When people were poor, they shared with, and helped each other. With some wealth, that disappeared and was replaced with barriers of distance from each other.
So, I'd like you to expand on this sense of community dying... and whether it really was multiculturalism that's responsible, or whether it's something we've done to ourselves.
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irish people stick to their own when out as well , in rural Ireland blow ins are often ignored and instead you chat to the guy you know since junior infants
irish people are as cliquey as anyone anywhere
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It depends I suppose, its a two way street. I've known " Blow-ins" who became more local than the locals them selves ( myself being one) and I've met people here in Ireland, either foreign, or from a different part of the Country, who have preferred to keep themselves to themselves. I've also travelled abroad, and met and chatted with complete strangers who I met accidently on a bus or train, or in a McDonalds. Being Irish, gave me a distinct advantage in most of the Country's I was in.
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you can make every effort to fit in to a new community but in many rural dwellers minds , if youre grandfather didnt line out for the parish , they have no interest in you
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Maybe, but I'm speaking about my own personal experience. I'm a blow-in where I live now, and have been for many years, but I've never felt that I was an outsider. Sure, I'd occasionally get a slagging about it as a bit of craic, but nothing more. From time to time, I've been thrown into mixed groupings of people, but when the initial excitement ( for want of a better word ) settles down, relationships form, and life goes on. But one of the biggest shocks I ever got was when for the first time in my life, I found myself on a train in England, and not sure about something, I asked one of the two people sitting opposite me about the next station, only to be met with an "are you speaking to us?" type stare. So I repeated the question, and after looking at each other for confirmation that I was indeed speaking to them,,,they answered briefly, and then in no uncertain terms pointedly ignored me. So much for friendly welcoming banter. But its maybe and "English" thing? I've never found it to the same extent in other Country's that I've been in, even when there were language difficulty's.
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In those situations it varies, I was in London last week and we both had several casual friendly interactions with people, one involved asking a train passenger in Victoria Station if the train was heading to Gatwick, they happily answered.
Did encounter one snappy tube customer but you will get that on Luas too
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Laffs.
This reminds me of a trip on the London Underground in the early eighties. I was mistakenly taking up real estate standing on the left side of an escalator when two girls passed me by and one said; "some people". Laffs.
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Try that on the Moscow underground..this thing moves, really moves, and the left hand side is the overtaking lane, something I was not aware of until I was unceremoniously "shunted" into the slow lane, with the adjacent Muscovites showing verbally their obvious disapproval. I'm not sure whet was actually being said, but I doubt very much it was complimentary. ☺️ Having said all that, the underground is a sight to behold...When the Russians took Germany in the 2nd world war, Stalin ordered all the works of art that were taken back to Russia to be publicly displayed, as he believed that art was not just for the few, but for the many. And so the metro is a vast artistic display.😊
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Yes, the art bit was nice. Only problem is half the soviet prisoners of war that were liberated were shot, the other half sent to gulags. Stalin's poetic justice, I guess…
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There were no half measures with him..you did not get captured, you either died fighting or else!!!Shows it very well in the" Enemy at the Gate" movie.
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He was just as evil as Hitler, if not even worse.
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Two monsters. ( but don't say that to any Georgian )They made Stalingrad their personal battleground, and in the lead up to the 2nd world war, he killed off the cream of the Russian Army officer class fearing an army coup, which was one reason Hitler was able to take so much land so quick. But like many an enemy before, it was the Russian winter that sounded the death for the Germans.
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WW1 and the war between the Reds/Whites showed just how badly the Russian Army had fallen. The largest military of the time, but they failed badly. Stalin killing off the officer corps hurt them but they'd been hurt even more before that.. and those that remained had limited real experience of any kind of modern warfare. Its very debatable how much of a change in results there would have been if there was no Purge regarding German advances. The true problem for Stalin was that Russia wasn't even remotely unified under communism, and also, the problems with infighting between various groups within the movement itself, resulting in greater hardship for the people, who didn't see much value in fighting the Germans until they were convinced otherwise.
It's very interesting to chat with amateur historians in Russia about WW2, and what went before. I spent a year there during which I toured many of the major battle sites, with some friends to translate/explain. Wonderful experience, and amazing the amount of history which was different from what I was taught in school or many of the books I had read before going to Russia.
Oh, and all the Georgians I met were very scary/hard people. They've got a certain reputation, that was there long before Stalin came along, and wasn't changed much by his actions.
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