Leo says the Civil Service is 'very white'

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

That literally is racist

My god, I bet you’re sorry you said that.

NotMOL

"New Government to set targets for ethnic minorities employed in public service"

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/new-government-to-set-targets-for-ethnic-minorities-employed-in-public-service-39285140.html

what can this be a good thing? Soon you'll be better of wearing black face if you want to get a job

lainey_d_123

NotMOL wrote: »

"New Government to set targets for ethnic minorities employed in public service"

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/new-government-to-set-targets-for-ethnic-minorities-employed-in-public-service-39285140.html

what can this be a good thing? Soon you'll be better of wearing black face if you want to get a job

I generally support these initiatives when it comes to gender diversity, because 50% of the population is female, so some jobs being over 95% male shows a genuine and enormous lack of women in the field (and the same is true in reverse for other professions, and I support any initiatives which work the other way around), and which support people who are sufficiently educated and trained in the job to work in that area without feeling like they don't belong.

The same just isn't true for ethnic minorities, surely. The percentage of Irish people from ethnic minorities is small, even today, so surely these targets would lead to them being OVER represented?

If under 5% of Irish born people are from an ethnic minority, then you wouldn't expect more than 5% of public servants to be from one. And if it's about people from other countries, then there are other factors at play, such as possible language barriers. I wouldn't choose to move to the Congo and then rock up to the government expecting to be given a job when I don't have a native command of the language and wasn't born there. There's a fine line between having opportunities and having a sense of entitlement that I think some people are crossing here.

I'm a dual British/Irish citizen and lived abroad loads, both within Europe and further afield, and have always considered myself a guest in the country. I'm not really on board with the mentality of a person who feels entitled to move somewhere they have no connection to and then start demanding things. The community leaders and local government in my old Bronx neighbourhood were almost all Hispanic. I wonder how they'd have liked me demanding a well paid government job because I wanted one, and deserved one because there weren't enough white people represented. I'm pretty sure they'd have not so politely told me to fck off back to Ireland and not try to stick my nose into and change a place I'd freely chosen to move to.

TheCitizen

NotMOL wrote: »

"New Government to set targets for ethnic minorities employed in public service"

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/new-government-to-set-targets-for-ethnic-minorities-employed-in-public-service-39285140.html

what can this be a good thing? Soon you'll be better of wearing black face if you want to get a job

Amazing, barefaced naked racism on show here now.

There’s nothing at all wrong with the government targeting increasing the numbers of ethnic minorities in the public services. It makes them stakeholders in society and helps with social inclusion and cohesion. They’re not talking about quotas but on here this policy of inclusion and cohesion is painted as promoting ethnic minorities to the detriment of indigenous white people. This is bullshít, utter utter bullshít and it’s indicative of the sickening racist agenda that’s behind the unrepresentative alt right (in this country) that are the driving force of the guff spattered all over this thread.

The agenda is pushed on here that immigration can’t be discussed. Again more nonsense, immigration can be discussed so long as it’s in an adult, and informed way. That’s not what we’re getting on here though. This place has become a cesspitt of racism and the sort of alt right bollocksology that lead to Trump and Johnson becoming Premiers.

Mules

I get Trump and the racism but what did Johnson do that's racist?

TheCitizen wrote: »

Amazing, barefaced naked racism on show here now.

There’s nothing at all wrong with the government targeting increasing the numbers of ethnic minorities in the public services. It makes them stakeholders in society and helps with social inclusion and cohesion. They’re not talking about quotas but on here this policy of inclusion and cohesion is painted as promoting ethnic minorities to the detriment of indigenous white people. This is bullshít, utter utter bullshít and it’s indicative of the sickening racist agenda that’s behind the unrepresentative alt right (in this country) that are the driving force of the guff spattered all over this thread.

The agenda is pushed on here that immigration can’t be discussed. Again more nonsense, immigration can be discussed so long as it’s in an adult, and informed way. That’s not what we’re getting on here though. This place has become a cesspitt of racism and the sort of alt right bollocksology that lead to Trump and Johnson becoming Premiers.

Hotblack Desiato

DelaneyIn wrote: »

A video of the incident isn’t fake news.

https://twitter.com/hermannkelly/status/1272624961845440512

Ah yes Herr Kelly. Not like he has an agenda to push, or anything.

TheCitizen

Mules wrote: »

I get Trump and the racism but what did Johnson do that's racist?

Really you've never heard of Johnson being racist before?

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-record-sexist-homophobic-and-racist-comments-bumboys-piccaninnies-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

In the UK Brexit has unleashed a lurch to the Far Right and to the jingoism that has lead to the environment where that a useless opportunistic Trump wanabee bollocks like Johnson gets to be Prime Minister. The Alt Right lot that stink this thread out of it want something like him or Trump in Ireland.

Geuze

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I generally support these initiatives when it comes to gender diversity, because 50% of the population is female, so some jobs being over 95% male shows a genuine and enormous lack of women in the field (and the same is true in reverse for other professions, and I support any initiatives which work the other way around),

If men or women rationally choose to enter, or not enter, certain trades/occupations, should we always react?

Chess seems to me to be mainly male.

There is nothing stopping anybody taking up chess, it's cheap, low barriers to entry.

Must we have a public policy on women in chess?

Primary school teaching is massively feminised. Now, this is obviously of more significance and impact than chess.

There is nothing stopping a young man from applying for teacher training.

If this is the outcome of rational choices by people, then should we react?

You could probably convince me we should have a campaign to encourage young men to become primary teachers, ok.

But quotas / targets, I'm not so sure.

Mules

TheCitizen wrote: »

Really you've never heard of Johnson being racist before?

https://www.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-record-sexist-homophobic-and-racist-comments-bumboys-piccaninnies-2019-6?r=US&IR=T

In the UK Brexit has unleashed a lurch to the Far Right and to the jingoism that has lead to the environment where that a useless opportunistic Trump wanabee bollocks like Johnson gets to be Prime Minister. The Alt Right lot that stink this thread out of it want something like him or Trump in Ireland.

Tbh I don't see anything wrong with Brexit. I know people who voted for it who aren't racist. I didn't know about Johnson's quotes though :eek:

TheCitizen

Mules wrote: »

Tbh I don't see anything wrong with Brexit. I know people who voted for it who aren't racist. I didn't know about Johnson's quotes though :eek:

You see nothing wrong with Brexit? Jaysus don't get me started.

Johnson is only there because of Brexit, him and his useless cabinet are all Brexiteers and are there because of being Brexiteer and nothing else, literally nothing else. They're useless at everything else including negotiating a reasonable compromise deal on Brexit.

When Brexit causes economic hardship for the people of the UK Johnson and his cronies will say it's because of Coronavirus. He's useless absolutely useless and Dominic Cummings is more or less running the UK like it's his personal fiefdom.

lainey_d_123

Geuze wrote: »

If men or women rationally choose to enter, or not enter, certain trades/occupations, should we always react?

Chess seems to me to be mainly male.

There is nothing stopping anybody taking up chess, it's cheap, low barriers to entry.

Must we have a public policy on women in chess?

Primary school teaching is massively feminised. Now, this is obviously of more significance and impact than chess.

There is nothing stopping a young man from applying for teacher training.

If this is the outcome of rational choices by people, then should we react?

You could probably convince me we should have a campaign to encourage young men to become primary teachers, ok.

But quotas / targets, I'm not so sure.

It's naive to say that. There are massive cultural factors at play which make people feel they can't work in X or Y industry.

And this can be true for ethnicity as well. But having a target to employ more people from ethnic minorities when there is a very small number of such people in the first place just seems like virtue signalling to me.

If 20% of Irish people are black and there's only one black Irish public servant in the country, that's a problem. If only 1% are, and there are a handful of black public servants then is that a problem or it is simply representative?

MontgomeryClift

NotMOL wrote:

"New Government to set targets for ethnic minorities employed in public service"

https://www.independent.ie/incoming/...-39285140.html

what can this be a good thing? Soon you'll be better of wearing black face if you want to get a job

bUT teH GrEaT REPlacEmenT is A faR RIgHt COnsPiRAcy tHeORy.

y0ssar1an22

TheCitizen wrote: »

Amazing, barefaced naked racism on show here now.

There’s nothing at all wrong with the government targeting increasing the numbers of ethnic minorities in the public services. It makes them stakeholders in society and helps with social inclusion and cohesion. They’re not talking about quotas but on here this policy of inclusion and cohesion is painted as promoting ethnic minorities to the detriment of indigenous white people. This is bullshít, utter utter bullshít and it’s indicative of the sickening racist agenda that’s behind the unrepresentative alt right (in this country) that are the driving force of the guff spattered all over this thread.

The agenda is pushed on here that immigration can’t be discussed. Again more nonsense, immigration can be discussed so long as it’s in an adult, and informed way. That’s not what we’re getting on here though. This place has become a cesspitt of racism and the sort of alt right bollocksology that lead to Trump and Johnson becoming Premiers.

it depends how you (the government) define an ethnic minority. this is what i could find:

TABLE 3.1 CLASSIFICATION OF ETHNICITY AND NATIONALITY
2004 (%) 2010 (%) 2014 (%) Overall Pooled Average
for all Years (%)
White Irish 92.07 88.31 87.92 89.35
White UK 1.96 1.91 1.62 1.82
White EU-West 1.00 0.98 1.35 1.11
White EU-East 1.07 4.83 5.04 3.73
White non-EU 1.39 1.00 0.56 0.97
Black non-Irish 0.60 0.77 0.45 0.60
Asian non-Irish 0.81 0.98 1.03 0.94
Other non-Irish 0.86 0.78 0.70 0.78
Minorities Irish 0.25 0.43 1.35 0.69
Total 100 100 100 100


purely based on these numbers white irish should account for ~90% of the public service. thats if we want fair representation.

https://www.ihrec.ie/app/uploads/2018/12/Ethnicity-and-Nationality-in-the-labout-market-20122018.pdf

TheCitizen

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

it depends how you (the government) define an ethnic minority. this is what i could find:

TABLE 3.1 CLASSIFICATION OF ETHNICITY AND NATIONALITY
2004 (%) 2010 (%) 2014 (%) Overall Pooled Average
for all Years (%)
White Irish 92.07 88.31 87.92 89.35
White UK 1.96 1.91 1.62 1.82
White EU-West 1.00 0.98 1.35 1.11
White EU-East 1.07 4.83 5.04 3.73
White non-EU 1.39 1.00 0.56 0.97
Black non-Irish 0.60 0.77 0.45 0.60
Asian non-Irish 0.81 0.98 1.03 0.94
Other non-Irish 0.86 0.78 0.70 0.78
Minorities Irish 0.25 0.43 1.35 0.69
Total 100 100 100 100


purely based on these numbers white irish should account for ~90% of the public service. thats if we want fair representation.

https://www.ihrec.ie/app/uploads/2018/12/Ethnicity-and-Nationality-in-the-labout-market-20122018.pdf

Again. Quotas and percentages are not being mentioned. What they want to do is activate a campaign that entices ethnic minorities to apply and feel they have a chance of being employed in the public service in an effort to promote social inclusion and cohesion.

DelaneyIn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ah yes Herr Kelly. Not like he has an agenda to push, or anything.

He must have paid them to stage the video.

TheCitizen

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It's naive to say that. There are massive cultural factors at play which make people feel they can't work in X or Y industry.

And this can be true for ethnicity as well. But having a target to employ more people from ethnic minorities when there is a very small number of such people in the first place just seems like virtue signalling to me.

If 20% of Irish people are black and there's only one black Irish public servant in the country, that's a problem. If only 1% are, and there are a handful of black public servants then is that a problem or it is simply representative?

Why? What's wrong with a campaign that entices ethnic minorities to become public servants and stakeholders in society?

People in this country need to look at what has happened in the US and the UK where the Far Right have got a hold of the agenda and they've ended up with a pair of useless arseholes leading their governments. Be careful what you wish for in this country is what I would say to people being swayed by the nonsense from Alt Right and Far Right gobshítes.

Rodin

TheCitizen wrote: »

Why? What's wrong with a campaign that entices ethnic minorities to become public servants and stakeholders in society?

People in this country need to look at what has happened in the US and the UK where the Far Right have got a hold of the agenda and they've ended up with a pair of useless arseholes leading their governments. Be careful what you wish for in this country is what I would say to people being swayed by the nonsense from Alt Right and Far Right gobshítes.

I've no problem with enticement and encouragement.
Quotas of all kinds are wrong.

Best person for the job.

suicide_circus

cant be much fun at the Varadkar household at Christmas as Leo looks from his mam to his husbands and says "it's fierce white in here"

TheCitizen

Rodin wrote: »

I've no problem with enticement and encouragement.
Quotas of all kinds are wrong.

Best person for the job.

They're not doing quotas is the point.

Rodin

TheCitizen wrote: »

They're not doing quotas is the point.

Not yet...

Even today there's a piece in the Indo about gender balance in the cabinet.

Why does there need to be gender balance in anything?

Tony EH

Having campaigns encouraging people from minority groups to apply for positions within the civil service is a perfectly fine idea. There wouldn't be too many people against it I reckon.

But having "targets" to fill a quota is not. If Jimmy from Zimbabwe doesn't make the grade, but still gets the job over Jimmy from Galway, just because he has more melanin in his skin, well that just racial discrimination, pure and simple.

1800_Ladladlad

TheCitizen wrote: »

Amazing, barefaced naked racism on show here now.

There’s nothing at all wrong with the government targeting increasing the numbers of ethnic minorities in the public services. It makes them stakeholders in society and helps with social inclusion and cohesion. They’re not talking about quotas but on here this policy of inclusion and cohesion is painted as promoting ethnic minorities to the detriment of indigenous white people. This is bullshít, utter utter bullshít and it’s indicative of the sickening racist agenda that’s behind the unrepresentative alt right (in this country) that are the driving force of the guff spattered all over this thread.

The agenda is pushed on here that immigration can’t be discussed. Again more nonsense, immigration can be discussed so long as it’s in an adult, and informed way. That’s not what we’re getting on here though. This place has become a cesspitt of racism and the sort of alt right bollocksology that lead to Trump and Johnson becoming Premiers.

No sleep again last night so...

y0ssar1an22

TheCitizen wrote: »

Again. Quotas and percentages are not being mentioned. What they want to do is activate a campaign that entices ethnic minorities to apply and feel they have a chance of being employed in the public service in an effort to promote social inclusion and cohesion.

i thought the public are already an equal opportunity employer?

maybe a PSA saying, visit this website to view employment opportunities in the public service. if you fit the criteria, fire in an application.
But, every candidate should be judged on their suitability for the job, with the most suited getting the position.

TheCitizen

1800_Ladladlad wrote: »

No sleep again last night so...

You're for the watching. I'm here to call you and the others out and I'll do it time and again.

reg114

According to the CSO there are approx 60,000 people of colour living in Ireland, thats is a tiny % of the total population. There are 300,000 civil servants in the country, so using the CSO figure above and extrapolating it across the civil service would equate to 300 people of colour in the civil service if you were looking to fairly represent people of colour within civil service ranks. The statement by Leo is unhelpful in that its would simply not be possible to increase numbers of people of colour in the civil service to 10 / 25 or 35 % given the very low numbers of that ethnic group living here. If you did then people of colour would be statistically disproportionately over-represented within the public service ranks.

Geuze

TheCitizen wrote: »

The agenda is pushed on here that immigration can’t be discussed. Again more nonsense, immigration can be discussed so long as it’s in an adult, and informed way. That’s not what we’re getting on here though. This place has become a cesspitt of racism and the sort of alt right bollocksology that lead to Trump and Johnson becoming Premiers.

Immigration can be discussed. I often discuss it.

Emigration by Irish people should be discouraged by having plenty of jobs here.

The Irish who have emigrated in the past should be encouraged to return, by having affordable housing here.

EU migration is welcome.

Non-EU immigration should be severely restricted.

The scams of non-EU on student visas should be stopped.

Bogus AS should be dealt with promptly, deported rapidly, and prevented from putting down roots. Direct provision should be closed.

I hope I have discussed it in an adult and informed way.

Annasopra

Hunky Monster wrote: »

My god, I bet you’re sorry you said that.

Not at all.

Annasopra

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

bUT teH GrEaT REPlacEmenT is A faR RIgHt COnsPiRAcy tHeORy.

It is yes.

TheCitizen

Geuze wrote: »

Immigration can be discussed. I often discuss it.

Emigration by Irish people should be discouraged by having plenty of jobs here.

The Irish who have emigrated in the past should be encouraged to return, by having affordable housing here.

EU migration is welcome.

Non-EU immigration should be severely restricted.

The scams of non-EU on student visas should be stopped.

Bogus AS should be dealt with promptly, deported rapidly, and prevented from putting down roots. Direct provision should be closed.

I hope I have discussed it in an adult and informed way.

I wouldn't disagree with much of that at all. Your latter points certainly should be discussed. There's lots of people of colour from EU countries btw and some of the comments on this thread (not talking about you as far a I know) have been barefaced racist comments mixed in with all sorts of other stuff including attacking the welfare state in this country.

lainey_d_123

TheCitizen wrote: »

Why? What's wrong with a campaign that entices ethnic minorities to become public servants and stakeholders in society?

People in this country need to look at what has happened in the US and the UK where the Far Right have got a hold of the agenda and they've ended up with a pair of useless arseholes leading their governments. Be careful what you wish for in this country is what I would say to people being swayed by the nonsense from Alt Right and Far Right gobshítes.

Why is it needed? Where is the evidence that ethnic minority Irish people are NOT becoming public servants because of their skin colour? The person with the most important job in the country is from an ethnic minority, so where's all this racism and discrimination?

The problems in the US and the UK (to some extent) don't really apply in Ireland. There are a tiny handful of non-white Irish people, in the context of the entire population, and I'm not convinced they are anywhere near as socially and economically disadvantaged as their counterparts in America.

One of my college friends is mixed race, one of those Irish people from ethnic minorities - Irish mam, black Brazilian dad, Portuguese last name. Grew up pretty well off, travelling the world and went to private school and Trinity. Am I really supposed to believe that we should be focusing on making life better for people like her rather than the tens of thousands of underprivileged white Irish kids from households where entire generations have been on the dole and they are dismissed as having 'notions' if they express an interest in politics or anything that isn't a working class job?