Leo says the Civil Service is 'very white'

TheCitizen

TheCitizen wrote: »

What points are you talking about, he (the poster you’re rushing in to defend there) wasn’t making any points. He was ranting about feminists and conspiracy theorising about other groups that he doesn’t like because he’s an arch conservative turning to the alt right because he thinks the regular conservatives have become compromised. Classic alt right gibberish and it’s no surprise that you’re seeing calls for support for The National Party and other such loons on here.

I do love the way that you're telling me (and others) what I think. The points were in relation to the influence that groups outside of the main political system have influence over the parties. Those groups are what constitutes the aspects of the "left" in society. I used the example of feminism because it has such a strong influence over government policy. Which you would understand if everything wasn't about labeling people, and assigning an Alt right perspective on anything that you don't immediately agree with.

And I'm very much middle of the road in terms of political thoughts, leaning left or right depending on the issue raised... I could go into detail as regards some of those issues, but there's little actual value in doing so, because you've consistently shown an inability to appreciate other posters pov, and a desire to box posters into certain roles.

To be perfectly honest, you're one of the least tolerant posters I've ever encountered on boards, and very representative of the ideologies you keep assigning on to others.

As for ranting... I repeat... You're the only one ranting with your need to associate everything with the Alt right. (without actually engaging in any discussions)

TheCitizen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I do love the way that you're telling me (and others) what I think. The points were in relation to the influence that groups outside of the main political system have influence over the parties. Those groups are what constitutes the aspects of the "left" in society. I used the example of feminism because it has such a strong influence over government policy. Which you would understand if everything wasn't about labeling people, and assigning an Alt right perspective on anything that you don't immediately agree with.

And I'm very much middle of the road in terms of political thoughts, leaning left or right depending on the issue raised... I could go into detail as regards some of those issues, but there's little actual value in doing so, because you've consistently shown an inability to appreciate other posters pov, and a desire to box posters into certain roles.

To be perfectly honest, you're one of the least tolerant posters I've ever encountered on boards, and very representative of the ideologies you keep assigning on to others.

As for ranting... I repeat... You're the only one ranting with your need to associate everything with the Alt right. (without actually engaging in any discussions)

Nah, I get what you’re at. You make a charge and when you’re met with opposition you row back into a more reasonable position while sticking in a few personal jibes. When you get back into full flow you show your true colours again. At this stage the original point of discussion in the thread has been totally lost and swamped with alt right type opinion.

The original point was a very mild conciliatory and probably inconsequential comment from Varadker (who I don’t even support) about raising awareness of making it easier for immigrants who now live here to become stakeholders in society. This rather vague aspirational comment has been met on this thread by calls to dispense with the welfare state, to shut the borders due to dubious claims that immigrants are coming here to raid our social welfare, posters like you claiming immigrants are now coming here expecting “to be looked after”, then onto calls for votes for loons like The National Party. That’s what’s been happening on this thread and I get accused of being on the “funny farm” for referring to it. LOL.

The thread speaks for itself but hopefully only for itself and such alt right type gibberish will hopefully have little traction going forward in the real Irish political landscape.

fin12

TheCitizen wrote: »

Nah, I get what you’re at. You make a charge and when you’re met with opposition you row back into a more reasonable position while sticking in a few personal jibes. When you get back into full flow you show your true colours again. At this stage the original point of discussion in the thread has been totally lost and swamped with alt right type opinion.

The original point was a very mild conciliatory and probably inconsequential comment from Varadker (who I don’t even support) about raising awareness of making it easier for immigrants who now live here to become stakeholders in society. This rather vague aspirational comment has been met on this thread by calls to dispense with the welfare state, to shut the borders due to dubious claims that immigrants are coming here to raid our social welfare, posters like you claiming immigrants are now coming here expecting “to be looked after”, then onto calls for votes for loons like The National Party. That’s what’s been happening on this thread and I get accused of being on the “funny farm” for referring to it. LOL.

The thread speaks for itself but hopefully only for itself and such alt right type gibberish will hopefully have little traction going forward in the real Irish political landscape.

People like you are all talk, I bet if there was a provision centre set up next to where u live, ud be the first one to object. Also make sure now if you are working, u give up that job so a member of a minority group can have it.

Eric Cartman

fin12 wrote: »

People like you are all talk, I bet if there was a provision centre set up next to where u live, ud be the first one to object. Also make sure now if you are working, u give up that job so a member of a minority group can have it.

the best part about the types who argue for it is, they're at no risk. Its piss easy to live in somewhere wealthy and built up like ranelagh and say 'I wouldn't mind a migrant centre near me' knowing that there isn't enough land to physically make it happen.

Mr. Karate

Eric Cartman wrote: »

the best part about the types who argue for it is, they're at no risk. Its piss easy to live in somewhere wealthy and built up like ranelagh and say 'I wouldn't mind a migrant centre near me' knowing that there isn't enough land to physically make it happen.

Plus they know their TD would never vote for it. its easy to virtue signal when you know you'll never suffer the consequences.

TheCitizen

fin12 wrote: »

People like you are all talk, I bet if there was a provision centre set up next to where u live, ud be the first one to object. Also make sure now if you are working, u give up that job so a member of a minority group can have it.

Why would I give up my job, what are you blathering about? I’m talking about the ridiculous alt right type ott response on this to a very mild aspirational comment about inclusion etc from Leo Varadker. Crazy, howling at the moon, jumping to conclusions, alarmist, alt right type bollocksology and gibberish.

1800_Ladladlad

TheCitizen wrote: »

Nah, I get what you’re at. You make a charge and when you’re met with opposition you row back into a more reasonable position while sticking in a few personal jibes. When you get back into full flow you show your true colours again. At this stage the original point of discussion in the thread has been totally lost and swamped with alt right type opinion.

The original point was a very mild conciliatory and probably inconsequential comment from Varadker (who I don’t even support) about raising awareness of making it easier for immigrants who now live here to become stakeholders in society. This rather vague aspirational comment has been met on this thread by calls to dispense with the welfare state, to shut the borders due to dubious claims that immigrants are coming here to raid our social welfare, posters like you claiming immigrants are now coming here expecting “to be looked after”, then onto calls for votes for loons like The National Party. That’s what’s been happening on this thread and I get accused of being on the “funny farm” for referring to it. LOL.

The thread speaks for itself but hopefully only for itself and such alt right type gibberish will hopefully have little traction going forward in the real Irish political landscape.

Yeah.... referring to it over and over constantly on more than one thread. You're raving and ranting about the same thing. We get it, boards was once your safe space were your opinions echoed but you've been knocked back by people's subjective opinions.

lainey_d_123

Mr. Karate wrote: »

Plus they know their TD would never vote for it. its easy to virtue signal when you you'll never suffer the consequences.

This is it, really. There's a migrant centre near my flat and dozens of men standing outside it, clumped together in groups, staring and leering at women going past and making comments. Easy for people living in a nice house in a leafy suburb to virtue signal when they're never going to be harassed by men brought up in cultures where women are basically objects to be owned.

Tony EH

Wibbs wrote: »

So again your entire "debating" strategy is to ignore any points raised and shout "racism" and "Far/Alt Right" buzzwords to dog whistle? I favour the social welfare system, though would make it more efficient and would even use the money saved to increase some benefits. I believe in free/subsidised education and health service. I think The Market libertarians imported from the US are pains in the arse, either kids bullied at school for being studious looking to get their own back, or delusional I pulled myself up by the bootstraps types, or mildly sociopathic, or their only life is work types. I believe there are still too many inequalities in societies and some are getting wider and that needs to be addressed. I'm behind LGBT rights(though some of the T's make my teeth itch), the right to choose etc, though I think feminism and I mean mainstream feminism too has disappeared up it's now arse. I certainly wouldn't vote for some "national" party as they're almost entirely populated by morons. To many Americans I'd be close to a damned commie.

However apparently it makes me Far/Alt Right just because I think multiculturalism is a failed concept that doesn't work and continues not to work and we should not repeat the mistakes of others, though sadly have started to already.

The Neo-Lib/Libertarian crowd are truly dangerous, as far as I'm concerned. Their autistic adherence to the so called "free market" is sociopathic and their whatever attitude towards people I find to be truly disturbing. They'd have us all back in the 19th Century if the had their way, because that's what their attitude reminds me of.

I dunno, I'm in my 40's now, maybe I'm just too old to understand what the hell is going on any more. But, I think since the 80's and the wedding of Thatcher and Reagan to banking sectors and the market above all else has led us down a very sorry path...and coupled with the Clinton destruction of the Democrats in the US, the extermination of Labour under Blair and the attempts to hijack the EU by this mush that is Neo-Liberalism, I can't see a way out to be honest.

But as long as people keep shouting "the left" or "alt right" or whatnot at things and ideas they don't like, I don't think there'll be any way back to normal, or relatively normal, politics.

statesaver

Tony EH wrote: »

The Neo-Lib/Libertarian crowd are truly dangerous, as far as I'm concerned. Their autistic adherence to the so called "free market" is sociopathic and their whatever attitude towards people I find to be truly disturbing. They'd have us all back in the 19th Century if the had their way, because that's what their attitude reminds me of.

I dunno, I'm in my 40's now, maybe I'm just too old to understand what the hell is going on any more. But, I think since the 80's and the wedding of Thatcher and Reagan to banking sectors and the market above all else has led us down a very sorry path...and coupled with the Clinton destruction of the Democrats in the US, the extermination of Labour under Blair and the attempts to hijack the EU by this mush that is Neo-Liberalism, I can't see a way out to be honest.

But as long as people keep shouting "the left" or "alt right" or whatnot at things and ideas they don't like, I don't think there'll be any way back to normal, or relatively normal, politics.

His lifting of regulations and light touch approach caused a lot of the mess over the last decade or so.

DeanAustin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I read it as an opinion on cultural conditioning. I didn't consider it racist.

I don't particularly agree, although I do find African American culture to be prone to encouraging black people towards certain unhealthy behaviors... just as I would point to Traveller culture having negative cultural behaviors, and how they're conditioned to conform to it.

Problem is that these days, pretty much any generalisation about a race is considered (by some) as racist.

And I would argue that any time racism is called you get a lot of “ah you can’t say anything these days without someone playing the racist card.”

The post I was talking about was poorly worded at best or racist at worst. Thing is, you’ve got to be careful how you word things when you generalise because generalisations can be dangerous.

mick087

Tony EH wrote: »

I dunno, I'm in my 40's now, maybe I'm just too old to understand what the hell is going on any more. But, I think since the 80's and the wedding of Thatcher and Reagan to banking sectors and the market above all else has led us down a very sorry path...and coupled with the Clinton destruction of the Democrats in the US, the extermination of Labour under Blair and the attempts to hijack the EU by this mush that is Neo-Liberalism, I can't see a way out to be honest.

This i could not agree more with, This really does have so much truth in it.

sabat

TheCitizen wrote: »

Why would I give up my job, what are you blathering about? I’m talking about the ridiculous alt right type ott response on this to a very mild aspirational comment about inclusion etc from Leo Varadker. Crazy, howling at the moon, jumping to conclusions, alarmist, alt right type bollocksology and gibberish.

You have it the wrong way around-I would say the average boardsie is about as close politically as you'd find on social media to your average Seàn or Mary Irish ie fairly middle of the road. The extremist fringe that's insidiously crept into positions of power and influence here needs to decry the centre as right-wing in order to make their own insane policies seem reasonable. From the current programme for government we have the following policies:
(Remember we are €230+ billion in debt with the worst recession in history happening)

Allowing an immigration free for all with a constitutional right to housing and benefits.
Allowing teenagers to choose their gender and take drugs to perform a simulation of transition to the other sex.
Changing the road traffic safety act so pedestrian crossings can be painted rainbow.

It wouldn't matter if the government consisted of the other parties and independents in the Dàil-these policies would still be the same, because it has almost been made illegal to disagree, and with the imminent passing of the hate speech laws it probably will be. If anyone sticks their head above the parapet and demurs, there's a salivating mob ready to pounce on them-public shaming, attempting to get them fired, even threats of violence. You have to obey this unelected, unaccountable and largely anonymous cartel of NGOs, "academics", journalists etc no matter who you actually voted for. During the Twitter spat over the parody Ebun Joseph account one Maynooth lecturer literally said "we need to make a list" when talking about people who had just followed the account.
And you're wondering why people are starting to think about alternatives...

Madeleine Birchfield

sabat wrote: »

You have it the wrong way around-I would say the average boardsie is about as close politically as you'd find on social media to your average Seàn or Mary Irish ie fairly middle of the road. The extremist fringe that's insidiously crept into positions of power and influence here needs to decry the centre as right-wing in order to make their own insane policies seem reasonable. From the current programme for government we have the following policies:
(Remember we are €230+ billion in debt with the worst recession in history happening)

Allowing an immigration free for all with a constitutional right to housing and benefits.
Allowing teenagers to choose their gender and take drugs to perform a simulation of transition to the other sex.
Changing the road traffic safety act so pedestrian crossings can be painted rainbow.

It wouldn't matter if the government consisted of the other parties and independents in the Dàil-these policies would still be the same, because it has almost been made illegal to disagree, and with the imminent passing of the hate speech laws it probably will be. If anyone sticks their head above the parapet and demurs, there's a salivating mob ready to pounce on them-public shaming, attempting to get them fired, even threats of violence. You have to obey this unelected, unaccountable and largely anonymous cartel of NGOs, "academics", journalists etc no matter who you actually voted for. During the Twitter spat over the parody Ebun Joseph account one Maynooth lecturer literally said "we need to make a list" when talking about people who had just followed the account.
And you're wondering why people are starting to think about alternatives...

The multiculturalism stuff insofar as it applies to Ireland would be a question of dealing with the Ulster Unionist cultural minority after reunification afterwards, and shouldn't be used as a reason to justify continued immigration.

DeanAustin

DeanAustin wrote: »

And I would argue that any time racism is called you get a lot of “ah you can’t say anything these days without someone playing the racist card.”

The post I was talking about was poorly worded at best or racist at worst. Thing is, you’ve got to be careful how you word things when you generalise because generalisations can be dangerous.

Perhaps, but those who post regularly to boards are a relatively small community, and it's pretty easy to keep track of people's posting habits. Sure, there are oddballs who come in with hardline/extreme comments, but they're dismissed pretty easily as the trash that comes with being on the internet. However, with those with a reasonable post count, you can see pretty quickly if they mean to be racist or not. Sometimes, posts are badly worded... yup. I definitely do that myself, but sometimes a few readers will simply take things the wrong way, or try to find something to pick apart.

I find with racism claims on boards, any generalisation regarding a minority can be taken as racism. The problem is that with any discussion board, generalisations go with the territory. It's far too clumsy to be specific all the time, and personally, I prefer to assume that people have the intelligence to give a certain benefit of the doubt to such posts.... if they don't, i'll deal with it later.

I have zero patience for outright/direct racism, but I find that these days too much honest discussion is shut down as racist. It's something that I've noticed about boards since I returned to posting often... that the racism accusation is handed out far too easily. Or there's hints about subtle racism or other nonsense, which is still designed to shut down discussion.

Oddly enough, I trust the mods to step in when there are racist comments going on. I believe that Wibbs wouldn't tolerate it, and would pass on notice to whoever is on duty. In any case, there are many posters here with very moderate views, who would also report anything that was obviously racist. I certainly would.

DeanAustin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Perhaps, but those who post regularly to boards are a relatively small community, and it's pretty easy to keep track of people's posting habits. Sure, there are oddballs who come in with hardline/extreme comments, but they're dismissed pretty easily as the trash that comes with being on the internet. However, with those with a reasonable post count, you can see pretty quickly if they mean to be racist or not. Sometimes, posts are badly worded... yup. I definitely do that myself, but sometimes a few readers will simply take things the wrong way, or try to find something to pick apart.

I find with racism claims on boards, any generalisation regarding a minority can be taken as racism. The problem is that with any discussion board, generalisations go with the territory. It's far too clumsy to be specific all the time, and personally, I prefer to assume that people have the intelligence to give a certain benefit of the doubt to such posts.... if they don't, i'll deal with it later.

I have zero patience for outright/direct racism, but I find that these days too much honest discussion is shut down as racist. It's something that I've noticed about boards since I returned to posting often... that the racism accusation is handed out far too easily. Or there's hints about subtle racism or other nonsense, which is still designed to shut down discussion.

Oddly enough I trust the mods to step in when there are racist comments going on. I believe that Wibbs wouldn't tolerate it, and would pass on notice to whoever is on duty.

I think where you’ve got a sentence beginning with “you do know that black people” without a qualifier or caveat and then followed with emotive terms like “brainwashed” and “they blame Whitey”, an accusation of racism is not unreasonable. As I’ve since said, it was very clumsy or racist.

Instead of accepting that and holding his hands up, the poster goes on spouting nonsense like “I DGAF what you think” and other such nonsense.

DeanAustin

DeanAustin wrote: »

I think where you’ve got a sentence beginning with “you do know that black people” without a qualifier or caveat and then followed with emotive terms like “brainwashed” and “they blame Whitey”, an accusation of racism is not unreasonable. As I’ve since said, it was very clumsy or racist.

Instead of accepting that and holding his hands up, the poster goes on spouting nonsense like “I DGAF what you think” and other such nonsense.

Ahh well, I think you were being overly sensitive considering the whole of the post... but it's your right to object. Personally I didn't think it was racist.

I'll leave it to the two of you to hash out.

Wibbs

TheCitizen wrote: »

What points are you talking about, he (the poster you’re rushing in to defend there) wasn’t making any points. He was ranting about feminists and conspiracy theorising about other groups that he doesn’t like because he’s an arch conservative turning to the alt right because he thinks the regular conservatives have become compromised. Classic alt right gibberish and it’s no surprise that you’re seeing calls for support for The National Party and other such loons on here.

I'm not rushing to defend any poster and have directly stated I'd not vote for a national party. I have simply stated that in my opinion and looking at the many decades long experiences of other European nations who tried this multiculturalism idea that it's a failed social experiment that's ongoing, and the last thing we need to do as a country is follow them down the same rabbit hole(though sadly we already started and the same stuff kicks off. Again...). Does that make me "Alt Right"?

Tony EH wrote: »

The Neo-Lib/Libertarian crowd are truly dangerous, as far as I'm concerned. Their autistic adherence to the so called "free market" is sociopathic and their whatever attitude towards people I find to be truly disturbing. They'd have us all back in the 19th Century if the had their way, because that's what their attitude reminds me of.

Well they all think they'd be the ones on top or on the up. Ego and ignorance in both measures. They think they'd be John Galt, but they'd far more likely be the great unwashed outside the gated neighbourhood of their betters.

Mad_maxx

sabat wrote: »

You have it the wrong way around-I would say the average boardsie is about as close politically as you'd find on social media to your average Seàn or Mary Irish ie fairly middle of the road. The extremist fringe that's insidiously crept into positions of power and influence here needs to decry the centre as right-wing in order to make their own insane policies seem reasonable. From the current programme for government we have the following policies:
(Remember we are €230+ billion in debt with the worst recession in history happening)

Allowing an immigration free for all with a constitutional right to housing and benefits.
Allowing teenagers to choose their gender and take drugs to perform a simulation of transition to the other sex.
Changing the road traffic safety act so pedestrian crossings can be painted rainbow.

It wouldn't matter if the government consisted of the other parties and independents in the Dàil-these policies would still be the same, because it has almost been made illegal to disagree, and with the imminent passing of the hate speech laws it probably will be. If anyone sticks their head above the parapet and demurs, there's a salivating mob ready to pounce on them-public shaming, attempting to get them fired, even threats of violence. You have to obey this unelected, unaccountable and largely anonymous cartel of NGOs, "academics", journalists etc no matter who you actually voted for. During the Twitter spat over the parody Ebun Joseph account one Maynooth lecturer literally said "we need to make a list" when talking about people who had just followed the account.
And you're wondering why people are starting to think about alternatives...

was the maynooth lecturer professional man hater mary mc auliffe ?

Mad_maxx

TheCitizen wrote: »

Yep you’ve taken over. Far Right Alt Right lunacy. The sort of bullshít that ended up with scum like Trump and Johnson as Premiers.

You won’t be happy until we have similar divisive arseholes pitting groups against one another for personal political gain in this country.

Raving about feminists etc., and you’re saying my posts are nutty LOL.

in the country known as ireland , the divisive BS is all coming from the left

DeanAustin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ahh well, I think you were being overly sensitive considering the whole of the post... but it's your right to object. Personally I didn't think it was racist.

I'll leave it to the two of you to hash out.

Haha nothing to hash out. The other poster has had their say, I’ve had mine. We don’t agree. We’ll both get over it I’m sure.

punisher5112

How do these numpties get into power, we have fg, FF and the greens.....

We are doomed especially us working and trying to get by.

Leo is a racist and it's shocking how he got away with saying what he did.

Strumms

punisher5112 wrote: »

How do these numpties get into power, we have fg, FF and the greens.....

We are doomed especially us working and trying to get by.

Leo is a racist and it's shocking how he got away with saying what he did.

The first Taoiseach or leader of a government whom I have ever heard of anywhere in the world, presently or in history, who is 100% committed to racism and prejudice and discrimination against the native and natural citizens that he represents and has been elected by and elected to serve.

We need rid of this creep ASAP. He is NOT a good guy. When you wake up in YOUR own country, look at the newspaper, the jobs section and realize that not only have you have little prospect of a fair shout to get a job if somebody of an ethnic minority here wants it too, but that you are now effectively a second class citizen, in your own country. Your own country that you have paid probably in my case, about 200,000 euros in taxes since I began my working life.

If you are an employer you are walking on eggshells, however with the regulations you know you’ll be hiring more people who will be demanding less money to work for you.

It’s the worker being screwed, we’ll have less chance in the jobs market, ultimately for jobs that are paying a whole lot less.

Get rid of this fûcking prick, this anti Irishman by whatever means necessary.

paddyuibh

Has anyone else seen the newest video posted up on liberal. ie fb page?

I'm seeing more and more of this sh#t happening in Ireland in recent years. Is this the outcome of Multiculturalism?

Now, you might argue that oh well kids, Irish kids have also being doing this behaviour for years . Have they though? To this extent? Isn't this what goes on in other Countries and keeps increasing until it's not just fists there using anymore.

And you wonder why at the end of the day there is an ever growing concern and "alt-right" views increasing.

If your like the ones who don't think there's anything wrong here and noting to worry about you really would want to be delusional IMO.

It only gets worse! It's sad that we don't actually have proper law and order in this Country and that if your a guest in this Country you would very unlikely face any repercussions for stuff like this.

Hotblack Desiato

paddyuibh wrote: »

Has anyone else seen the newest video posted up on liberal. ie fb page?

You do know that they're a far-right fake news site, yeah?

paddyuibh

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You do know that they're a far-right fake news site, yeah?

Call them what you want. The fact of the matter is. There one of the very few media sources in Ireland that show incidents of matters that other outlets are to afraid of to.

The evidence is there. On video.

So hardly fake!?

Continue with your head in the sand

DelaneyIn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You do know that they're a far-right fake news site, yeah?

A video of the incident isn’t fake news.

https://twitter.com/hermannkelly/status/1272624961845440512

punisher5112

DelaneyIn wrote: »

A video of the incident isn’t fake news.

https://twitter.com/hermannkelly/status/1272624961845440512

Wouldn't want to be walking through that park...

jmayo

Well just listening to Radio 1 Morning Ireland and they had discussion about the traveller father rapist from Tipperary.

Of course interviewer has to ask if it was let happen because they were travellers.

And the lady responding immediately threw out the RACISM card.
Yep the authorities are racist in their treatment of travellers and by extension then this was let happen.
The travellers are afraid to engage with the awful racist authorities.
So it is all the fault of the authorities.
In other words it is OUR fault.
What utter bullshyte.

Yes there is discrimination when it comes to authorities dealing with travellers, but it is not fooking like the clowns on RTE would like you believe.

It is the fooking opposite.
They continously get positive discrimination and are given carte blanche in ways people in the so called settled community are not.

They are allowed do what they like, anywhere they like.
Authorities give them a free fooking ride, they don't bother trying to make them send their kids to school, they don't bother enforcing legal judicial warrants, they don't bother citing them for pollution, littering or animal cruelty, they don't bother enforcing motor laws, they don't bother stopping them riot until they have half killed each other.

And if you claim that was why this piece of shyte was allowed do what he did, then just check out that family in Roscommon that abused all their kids or other families where abuse was widespread.
The authorities have been very remiss when it comes to deal with family abuse cases.
Hell they even place vulnerable children in the homes of rapists.

sabat

Mad_maxx wrote: »

was the maynooth lecturer professional man hater mary mc auliffe ?

I was trying to dig out the tweet last night but kept falling into rage-inducing woke wormholes so gave up after half an hour. I remember that one phrase specifically because of the obvious historic connotations-I'll have another look later.