How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

British people are happy being ruled by monarchy and elites. That is evident for a number of centuries now. Here there were persistent and regular attempts to remove/expel the monarchs and elite until we finally succeeded in a part of the island.

Prior to the Norman conquest of Ireland was ruled by a collection of kings in fractured kingdoms which rather discounts your assertion that it was only British people happy to be ruled by kings.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Prior to the Norman conquest of Ireland was ruled by a collection of kings in fractured kingdoms which rather discounts your assertion that it was only British people happy to be ruled by kings.

I was talking that last few centuries while they were here. Monarchy and elites...as soon as we got rid of you we choose a government of the people to run the country.

RobMc59

eire4 wrote: »

The Saxons invaded and took over the land now called England from the Britons. There was no Saxon Britain.

Absolutely I without doubt wish that Ireland had never been invaded and colonized by the English.

Ok..Lets consider Ireland not conquered by the Normans and not becoming part of Britain.
The language would be gaelic,There would be no Irish people emigrating to places like Britain, America,Canada and Australia.
There would probably be no Irish connection with America,people like JFK,Biden and multiple other Irish American Presidents would never have existed.
Where would a none English speaking Ireland be in a world were the English language plays such a big part? Would`nt you agree the English language has been a definite advantage to Ireland in it`s position in the world?

Jump_In_Jack

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ok..Lets consider Ireland not conquered by the Normans and not becoming part of Britain.
The language would be gaelic,There would be no Irish people emigrating to places like Britain, America,Canada and Australia.
There would probably be no Irish connection with America,people like JFK,Biden and multiple other Irish American Presidents would never have existed.
Where would a none English speaking Ireland be in a world were the English language plays such a big part? Would`nt you agree the English language has been a definite advantage to Ireland in it`s position in the world?

Plenty of countries have their own language and speak English fluently for business.
The Netherlands for example.
The main reason for any country to learn to speak English nowadays is the US, not the UK.

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ok..Lets consider Ireland not conquered by the Normans and not becoming part of Britain.
The language would be gaelic,There would be no Irish people emigrating to places like Britain, America,Canada and Australia.
There would probably be no Irish connection with America,people like JFK,Biden and multiple other Irish American Presidents would never have existed.
Where would a none English speaking Ireland be in a world were the English language plays such a big part? Would`nt you agree the English language has been a definite advantage to Ireland in it`s position in the world?

The french,germans,italians,dutch,spanish etc seem to get along just fine without having english as their native language.get down off your english high horse and stop trying to belittle my country.also,how many more times to you have to be told,ireland was never part of britain

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Are you genuinely feigning offense at Six Counties, Downcow? You don't (incorrectly) refer to Ulster? You don't talk about OWC? You've never referred to this end of the country as anything but Ireland?!

Not offended. Just reminded how gaa are only interested in one community in the north. Happy enough that they remain a partisan sectarian organisation

And I would never refer to ni as Ulster and I don’t know anyone who does. We’ve moved on

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Not offended. Just reminded how gaa are only interested in one community in the north. Happy enough that they remain a partisan sectarian organisation

And I would never refer to ni as Ulster and I don’t know anyone who does. We’ve moved on

.....Sorry, what did you say your choice of political party was called, Downcow?

Perhaps moved on is a stretch...

eire4

droidman123 wrote: »

So that justifies it all,your mindset is beyond belief

Never mind that is simply not correct and just more gaslighting. Ireland was colonized by England. I wish that was not the case but it was what happened.

eire4

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ok..Lets consider Ireland not conquered by the Normans and not becoming part of Britain.
The language would be gaelic,There would be no Irish people emigrating to places like Britain, America,Canada and Australia.
There would probably be no Irish connection with America,people like JFK,Biden and multiple other Irish American Presidents would never have existed.
Where would a none English speaking Ireland be in a world were the English language plays such a big part? Would`nt you agree the English language has been a definite advantage to Ireland in it`s position in the world?

No I would not agree with you. No reason if we needed to speak English to do business we would not be multi lingual like other non English speaking European countries.
However once again the premise of what your saying is a text book example of a colonial racist mentality disguised behind gaslighting.

downcow

Fionn1952 wrote: »

.....Sorry, what did you say your choice of political party was called, Downcow?

Perhaps moved on is a stretch...

Uup What’s yours. And what’s you point

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

Uup What’s yours. And what’s you point

What does uup abbreviation stand for?

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ok..Lets consider Ireland not conquered by the Normans and not becoming part of Britain.
The language would be gaelic,There would be no Irish people emigrating to places like Britain, America,Canada and Australia.

In a scenario where the British weren't brutal rapacious genocidal invaders, it is quite likely that they wouldn't have been in America, Canada and Australia in the first instance.
Furthermore, let's not forget that the reason for Irish emigration was the impoverishment and large scale death of Irish people brought about as a direct result and deliberate policy of UK (mis) rule in Ireland.
There would be far less emigration because the people wouldn't be forced out by the British.

There would probably be no Irish connection with America,people like JFK,Biden and multiple other Irish American Presidents would never have existed.

There would be no need for an American "Irish connection" - the only real use of which is to pressurise the UK to prevent its acts of aggression on Ireland in relation to its continued occupation of Northern Ireland.


[/quote]
Where would a none English speaking Ireland be in a world were the English language plays such a big part? Would`nt you agree the English language has been a definite advantage to Ireland in it`s position in the world?[/quote]
If English remained the world's lingua franca- why would Ireland be any different to Netherlands, Denmark etc in having its own national language as well as the lingua Franca?

downcow

droidman123 wrote: »

What does uup abbreviation stand for?

No comparison and well you know it. Uup is the official name of a party that formed before Roi broke away from U.K.
To ask it to change its name would be like asking the rugby team to change from Ireland to ‘Roi & ni’.

RobMc59

droidman123 wrote: »

The french,germans,italians,dutch,spanish etc seem to get along just fine without having english as their native language.get down off your english high horse and stop trying to belittle my country.also,how many more times to you have to be told,ireland was never part of britain

With all due respect ,Ireland was recognised as part of Britain as the link shows.
I'm Irish descent and would never attempt to belittle a country I care about.


https://images.app.goo.gl/gMws97vdnstTcNYZA

droidman123

RobMc59 wrote: »

With all due respect ,Ireland was recognised as part of Britain as the link shows.
I'm Irish descent and would never attempt to belittle a country I care about.


https://images.app.goo.gl/gMws97vdnstTcNYZA

That shows ireland as part of the uk? You have been belittling my country by your pseudo elitist english attitude by suggesting ireland is better off by britains influence on ireland,language etc.its an insulting thing to say and a smear of all the irish people who fought and died to rid my country of the british.you.can.dress it up and backtrack all you like but your mask has slipped way before you made those comments earlier.i wont ask you to answer any of the numerous questions and points made earlier because as usual you just completely ignore them .

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

No comparison and well you know it. Uup is the official name of a party that formed before Roi broke away from U.K.
To ask it to change its name would be like asking the rugby team to change from Ireland to ‘Roi & ni’.

Nobody suggested changing its name,but you suggested the word ulster is rarely used now,when infact its used everyday as the name of (the second biggest?)unionist party

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

No comparison and well you know it. Uup is the official name of a party that formed before Roi broke away from U.K.
To ask it to change its name would be like asking the rugby team to change from Ireland to ‘Roi & ni’.

Utter rubbish...the rugby team is named Ireland because it's player's come from Ireland and rugby, like GAA is an all Ireland organisation, which was played long before partition.

The Ulster Unionist party has no branches in 3 counties of Ulster and stand exclusively in the 6 Counties.

lurleen lumpkin

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Utter rubbish...the rugby team is named Ireland because it's player's come from Ireland and rugby, like GAA is an all Ireland organisation, which was played long before partition.

The Ulster Unionist party has no branches in 3 counties of Ulster and stand exclusively in the 6 Counties.

All this nonsense about the GAA being sectarian coming from someone whose culture revolves around an organisation that prohibits Catholics (and spouses of Catholics).

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

And I would never refer to ni as Ulster and I don’t know anyone who does. We’ve moved on

downcow wrote: »

Uup What’s yours. And what’s you point

.....I think the point makes itself to be honest.

Lest I be accused of ignoring your question, as I'm no longer a resident in NI, I'm not entitled to vote there and so I don't have a party. Of the parties there, APNI would most closely align with my values.

Capt'n Midnight

lurleen lumpkin wrote: »

All this nonsense about the GAA being sectarian coming from someone whose culture revolves around an organisation that prohibits Catholics (and spouses of Catholics).

GAA needs to do more to attract Protestants, says Oisín McConville

In other news Orange Order members allowed to enter Scottish Catholic churches

maccored

RobMc59 wrote: »

Prior to the Norman conquest of Ireland was ruled by a collection of kings in fractured kingdoms which rather discounts your assertion that it was only British people happy to be ruled by kings.

ireland has always assimilated those who invaded it (including the normans). this was the problem with the Elizabethans who invaded during the tutor conquest of ireland, and rather than being like everyone else, decided to force their culture on ireland, rather than accepting the culture that already existed.

flanna01

With all due respect, I really can't fathom this nonsense...

History is unkind, many people(s) have invaded their neighbours, that's just how it is, get over it.

As a proud Irishman, how can we blame 2021 English men for their for-fathers antics....??

I have a wagon load of English friends, from building site labourers to men of business.... None of them care bout Northern Ireland, and the majority of them believe its a troublesome spot in Ireland.

They really don't care about the North, nor do they want it!

We need to stop living in the stone age, times have moved on since the troubles.

Some poster before me was asking what the occupied six counties were? I thought it was a trolling comment, until you sit down and think about it....

Too occupy a land mass involves invasion.... At what point did the born and bred residents of Belfast invade Ireland?

To recap again, I am a proud Irish man, make no mistake about that, but can't you see the bigger picture here....??

A family of Unionist that swear allegiance to the Queen, is entirely up to themselves... They have been born and bred for many generations in Northern Ireland, it's their home(s).

To me, they are Irish... They were born in Ireland, they are Irish full stop.

But here's the deal... We have people born and raised on the Island of Ireland that identify themselves as English, how is that England's fault???

Erm..... Irishmen born in Ireland want too be English??

Shur we'll blame the English anyway..

We have milked the English oppression so much, Christ! give it break lads..

There is zero difference between us and them....

What happened 100yrs ago has no bearing on the people oft today

Get over it!

gormdubhgorm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

You've never heard of ye olde Rule 21 ?

The clue to the GAA is in the name , first word is Gaelic. It ain't Ulster Scots.

The GAA has always worked on a county basis. And it's mostly by parish. And they ain't Free Presbyterian parishes.

The GAA predates partition do there's that too.


I wonder will the BBC and the rest of the UK covering the Olympics refer to Team GB or Team UK ??

You clearly have not looked at the link I posted.

https://www.gaa.ie/news/the-gaa-does-not-comment-elections-referenda/

And went on meandering rant.

Also the GAA got rid of rule 21 and also allowed 'foreign' games into CP.
Why? Because they want to be seen as inclusive confident, as weil as an apolitical organisation.
But it was not the GAA councils in the ROI who were the stumbling blocks, as usual it was the GAA Ulster Council holding the GAA back.
Different people, different mindsets. Not like us in the ROI who do not have the same 'edge'.

Conradh Na Gaeilge (Aka the Gaelic League) was also founded with apolitical aspirations. Based on a revival of Irish culture however Republican elements like Pearse infiltrated the Conradh Na Gaeilge and dumped out Douglas Hyde. Using Irish culture for political gain, disgusting really.

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/rivalry-between-padraig-pearse-and-douglas-hyde-came-to-a-head-100-years-ago

The same is done up in Stormont at the moment. So called proud Irish people merely playing with the Irish language and using it as a symbol/ weapon. Nothing to do with culture or rights in reality, again it is is disgusting.

The GAA always saw itself as apolitical, it was clear in the Hunger Strikes of 1981 where the GAA issued a directive to its members not to get involved in support as the issue was party political.

https://www.the42.ie/gaa-1981-hunger-strike-3469080-Jun2017/

The GAA like Conradh Na Gaeilge are founded as Irish cultural organisations not political ones. Nefarious, elements, with ill-intent try/tried to make them otherwise.

It is another reason why NI is not like the ROI. Those in the ROI do not have an undercurrent/complex about their 'identity'. In the the ROI it is culturally based predominantly, in NI there is a different edge, entirely. Until that changes there is not much hope of a UI. As those with malignant intent try to politicise cultural aspects. Which do not bring people together, only creating division. Which is the exact opposite of what unification is supposed to do!

Hamsterchops

flanna01 wrote: »

But here's the deal... We have people born and raised on the Island of Ireland that identify themselves as English, how is that England's fault???

Erm..... Irishmen born in Ireland want too be English??

Shure we'll blame the English anyway..

We have milked the English oppression so much, Christ! give it break lads..

There is zero difference between us and them....

What happened 100yrs ago has no bearing on the people oft today

Get over it!

Very interesting post with some very good points, but you lost me when you said about "We have people born and raised on the Island of Ireland that identify themselves as English" ... not sure what that's about.

gormdubhgorm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Very interesting post with some very good points, but you lost me when you said about "We have people born and raised on the Island of Ireland that identify themselves as English" ... not sure what that's about.

I think the poster means Anglo-Irish types born and reared in Ireland who identify as Unionist?
I am not sure if you would remember Glenroe. But there was a character like that in it called George. I believe a load of them were ran out it, doubt there are many left.

Hamsterchops

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think the poster means Anglo-Irish types born and reared in Ireland who identify as Unionist?
I am not sure if you would remember Glenroe. But there was a character like that in it called George. I believe a load of them were ran out it, doubt there are many left.

Quite a few Anglo Irish dotted around Ireland, but he's talking specifically about a large cohort of English people born here, or in NI? He needs to clarify what he means. Unionists may be Irish, Welsh, Scots or English, but to be English is very specific.

RobMc59

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Quite a few Anglo Irish dotted around Ireland, but he's talking specifically about a large cohort of English people born here, or in NI? He needs to clarify what he means. Unionists may be Irish, Welsh, Scots or English, but to be English is very specific.

I've noticed posters and certain political figures referring to England when they actually mean Britain.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/04/02/news/mary-lou-mcdonald-apologises-over-england-get-out-of-ireland-banner-1588293/

Fionn1952

flanna01 wrote: »

With all due respect, I really can't fathom this nonsense...

History is unkind, many people(s) have invaded their neighbours, that's just how it is, get over it.

As a proud Irishman, how can we blame 2021 English men for their for-fathers antics....??

I have a wagon load of English friends, from building site labourers to men of business.... None of them care bout Northern Ireland, and the majority of them believe its a troublesome spot in Ireland.

They really don't care about the North, nor do they want it!

We need to stop living in the stone age, times have moved on since the troubles.

Some poster before me was asking what the occupied six counties were? I thought it was a trolling comment, until you sit down and think about it....

Too occupy a land mass involves invasion.... At what point did the born and bred residents of Belfast invade Ireland?

To recap again, I am a proud Irish man, make no mistake about that, but can't you see the bigger picture here....??

A family of Unionist that swear allegiance to the Queen, is entirely up to themselves... They have been born and bred for many generations in Northern Ireland, it's their home(s).

To me, they are Irish... They were born in Ireland, they are Irish full stop.

But here's the deal... We have people born and raised on the Island of Ireland that identify themselves as English, how is that England's fault???

Erm..... Irishmen born in Ireland want too be English??

Shur we'll blame the English anyway..

We have milked the English oppression so much, Christ! give it break lads..

There is zero difference between us and them....

What happened 100yrs ago has no bearing on the people oft today

Get over it!

.....much of what has been discussed on this thread didn't happen 100 years ago. Indeed there are a number of us on here (on both sides) who were directly impacted.

I've no problem whatsoever with British people (indeed I count many English, Scottish, Welsh NI British people among my friends, and have family in all four of those groups), but let me be clear, when I blame anyone for my experiences, I'm talking about people living today. Even at that, I lay the blame for those experiences at the feet of the British establishment who gave the orders, not the 18 year old kid, tempted in with stories of glory and scared sh*tless.

We don't have the generational detachment that you have because we're talking about things that actually happened to us, not something that someone else's great grandfather did to their great grandfather. While we're slowly but surely moving on in the North, it is a process that takes time. You've had 100 years (of independence) to take a mature view of the experiences of your forefathers.....we've had twenty to reflect on what happened to us, be that at the hands of the British Army/RUC or those controlled by the British Army in the case of my community or the Provos and other Republican paramilitaries in the case of those from a Unionist background.

You're also conflating English and British. The Unionist people of NI aren't English any more than the Scottish are English. They're British and/or Northern Irish, or sometimes British AND Irish.....not English.


All in all, an awful lot of trying to sound mature and enlightened while demonstrating a complete detachment and lack of understanding of what many people's actual lived experiences were.

Hamsterchops

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You're also conflating English and British. The Unionist people of NI aren't English any more than the Scottish are English. They're British and/or Northern Irish, or sometimes British AND Irish.....not English.

Agreed.

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've noticed posters and certain political figures referring to England when they actually mean Britain.

https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/04/02/news/mary-lou-mcdonald-apologises-over-england-get-out-of-ireland-banner-1588293/

That’s a synecdoche.