How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

John Doe1

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Complete nonsense.

Unionist minority in Derry, Unionist minority in Belfast, Unionist minority in four of the six counties. There would be no viable micro-state, bantustans, or whatever else you care to call it, for unionist killers to carve out.

1 million unionists and they are spread across the region. (They are not a small minority in the 4 western counties with around 40 percent protestant)

If even 0.1 percent of that number wanted to revert to violence, that would spell trouble especially on the border regions.

If a United Ireland happens, for it to be successful the state itself would have to change. At the very least, change the flag/anthem and consider re-joining the commonwealth. A sort of devolved Ulster government might be needed and Sinn Fein would have to probably disband too.

NIMAN

Why would SF have to disband, when unionists currently power share with them in the North as it stands?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Ah you would think that.

However....

If you were asked to say the colours of the Tricolour would you say -

a) Green, White, and Orange ?

or

b) Green, White and Gold?

Honestly? And what would your reasoning be?

Or would you refuse to say 'Gold' as a substitution of the word 'Orange'?

--

I assume a 'clued in' person like yourself knows article 7 or the Irish constitution.

Also whether you like it or not two states have been created using terms like 'partitionists' will not change the reality of the situation. It has already been done for over 100 years now! And agreed in the GFA by the majority of the Island of Ireland - and removed articles 2 and 3. You need to really move with the times a small bit.

This bates Bannagher as they say.

Confronted by facts and STILL you try to sledgehammer your 'facts' to fit your point.

Fionn1952

I don't think I've even heard someone say, 'Green, White and Gold' on either side of the border in twenty years or more.

An odd one to try and steamroll through with.

gormdubhgorm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Orange. It's green white and orange. Orange is supposed to signify the unionist tradition even though I'd imagine fewer-and-fewer unionists would be comfortable with being associated with Orangeism.

Articles 2 and 3 were not removed, they were changed to accommodate the GFA.

True enough the proper term would be amended. Well at least least you admit it is Orange. And would never have used 'Gold'.

But to me going on about 'partionists' is akin going on about a match that was played long ago where parties shook hands, the ones who caused crowd trouble were dealt with. Then of course we had the 30 plus year 'draw' where no one won. And you could not even call it a 'moral victory'

Anyone who uses the term 'partionist' is a bit deluded to me. To paraphrase Delores O'Riordan 'In their head, in your head, they are fighting'. It is like they are unable to accept the reality of the situation.

Even the term re-unification is a bit odd when you think of it. When was the island Ireland ever unified? Only by the British not by those who now class themselves as Irish. A load of clans warring against each other.

Some people have a misty eyed view about Ireland. Ancient Ireland, the High Kings etc.
But many were not recognised as the leaders from the Irish people.
As written in the annals after about 1000 AD as "Kings of Ireland with Opposition".

It seems a lot of the claim to 'unification' seems to be based on a mythical view of an Irish race/people progated by Pearse etc Resulting in the revived Tailteann Games a 'meeting of the Irish Race' and so on. And a mindset carried on by Republicanism to this day. Referring to each other as 'Gaels' and etc.

I will say one thing for Republican's they certainly brought into those aspects of it. The narrative has not changed much in over a century. Maybe the odd term here or there. But the belief, narrative, and determination is the same.

Excluding the Irish language of course. Most Republicans just seem to use it as ceremonial tool to wind the Unionists up under the guise of 'culture'. And it is not a language of communication for most just a means to accentuate difference.

Completely at odds with what Douglas Hyde wanted to do with language, before he was shafted by Pearse and his militant buddies. And dumped out of CnaG.

If/When the SDLP and the Alliance Party rise in popularity that to me will be the true signal for a UI. It means the mindset of the people of NI will have matured. Otherwise the Island will not be ready for a UI in my opinion.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This bates Bannagher as they say.

Confronted by facts and STILL you try to sledgehammer your 'facts' to fit your point.

You have said yourself on other threads from your part of the 'world' Green, White and Gold was/is common.

Even in my part of the 'world' it was commonly heard.

But the fact some people laugh about it and see nothing wrong with says a lot to me. It does not really say inclusiveness does it?

Also many Irish flags seen are more closer to yellow/gold instead of Orange. They can't all have faded surely?

What about the phrase '6 Counties'. The GAA still use it (only recently and blatantly which annoyed me to be honest), RnaG constantly use it. Does it demonstrate people who are merely playing with words or is because of more sinister undercurrent?
We are not even talking about political parties! Supposed apolitical organisations.

If I was a moderate Unionist type I would be looking on thinking. 'Catch yourselves on'

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

If I was a moderate Unionist type I would be looking on thinking. 'Catch yourselves on'

Offhand I can think of about 20 different ways of naming the place and things that one or the other won't countenance or say.

As a moderate Unionist would you be having any self awareness yourself about exclusionary language and refusals to acknowledge?

Take your time there.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Offhand I can think of about 20 different ways of naming the place and things that one or the other won't countenance or say.

As a moderate Unionist would you be having any self awareness yourself about exclusionary language and refusals to acknowledge?

Take your time there.

So you deflected as usual. You are a Republican Jedi Francie. Magically using words to deflect immediate danger.

You are doing similar to my favourite Gerry Adams oft used line - when he had to avoid a question.

'With respect, let me answer your question with a question....'

Then off he went.....

It is very Adam-esque you did not answer my questions either.

What do think of the use of the phrase 'the 6 counties' from supposed apolitical organisations RnaG and the GAA?

Do you think this is the correct move towards inclusiveness? And/Or do you think it is symptomatic of an undercurrent in Ireland from certain cohorts that is always bubbling under?

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you deflected as usual. You are a Republican Jedi Francie. Magically using words to deflect immediate danger.

You are doing similar to my favourite Gerry Adams oft used line - when he had to avoid a question.

'With respect, let me answer your question with a question....'

Then off he went.....

It is very Adam-esque did not answer my questions either.

What do think of the use of the phrase 'the 6 counties' from supposed apolitical organisations RnaG and the GAA. Do you think this is the correct move towards inclusiveness? And do you think it is symptomatic of an undercurrent in Ireland from certain cohorts that is always bubbling under?

'So what' is my answer. What do you think of that?

As I said, I can think of about 20 other examples of this happening.

The GAA has always said it is an organisation in the 'nation of Ireland' and as such operates on a '32' county island.
Unionism, who you are yet again getting offended on behalf off, will just have to get over the fact that partition that was carried out as a result of their threats warped that relationship.
That would be 'inclusive' of them, don't you think?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'So what' is my answer. What do you think of that?

As I said, I can think of about 20 other examples of this happening.

The GAA has always said it is an organisation in the 'nation of Ireland' and as such operates on a '32' county island.
Unionism, who you are yet again getting offended on behalf off, will just have to get over the fact that partition that was carried out as a result of their threats warped that relationship.
That would be 'inclusive' of them, don't you think?

No different when people get upset when the British media consider us part of the UK. Annoying but hardly worth getting worked up over.

eire4

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I don't think I've even heard someone say, 'Green, White and Gold' on either side of the border in twenty years or more.

An odd one to try and steamroll through with.

I can't say I have ever heard anybody say that at all myself.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'So what' is my answer. What do you think of that?

As I said, I can think of about 20 other examples of this happening.

The GAA has always said it is an organisation in the 'nation of Ireland' and as such operates on a '32' county island.
Unionism, who you are yet again getting offended on behalf off, will just have to get over the fact that partition that was carried out as a result of their threats warped that relationship.
That would be 'inclusive' of them, don't you think?

The GAA is supposed to be apolitical
https://www.gaa.ie/news/the-gaa-does-not-comment-elections-referenda/

My point is if supposed apolitical organisations such as the GAA try to dilute the NI state / jurisdiction as it is - what hope a UI working? When you think of all those with political views as it is who will no doubt fan flames no matter which way a vote on a UI goes? Ireland clearly is not ready to make a UI work imo.

Junkyard Tom

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

My point is if supposed apolitical organisations such as the GAA try to dilute the NI state / jurisdiction as it is

If an amatuer sporting organisation is 'diluting' NI by referring to it as the 'six counties' then it's as weak as dishwater to begin with. The North is a contested territory, get over it.

what hope a UI working

Non sequitur.

Regardless, your sequencing is messed up, the problems of the north/Ireland/Ulster/NI are downstream from partition. There were essentially counter-revolutions in the south and north whereby some of the worst elements filled the vacuum the British state left.

Paleo-unionism still has a strong grip on the north which adds to its built-in fractiousness as an entity, while we've largely neutered the reactionary forces in the south.

When Ireland is united, as one political unit, paleo-unionism will be a ridiculous fringe element that has nothing to offer, as it currently exists to to keep the Fenians in check and NI in the 17th Century.

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

The GAA is supposed to be apolitical
https://www.gaa.ie/news/the-gaa-does-not-comment-elections-referenda/

My point is if supposed apolitical organisations such as the GAA try to dilute the NI state / jurisdiction as it is - what hope a UI working? When you think of all those with political views as it is who will no doubt fan flames no matter which way a vote on a UI goes? Ireland clearly is not ready to make a UI work imo.

Don't tell me, Unionists in a UI are gonna get upset because an organisation that sees itself as part of a 32 county nation since it's birth, starts calling itself a 32 county organisation???? Shocking.

gormdubhgorm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't tell me, Unionists in a UI are gonna get upset because an organisation that sees itself as part of a 32 county nation since it's birth, starts calling itself a 32 county organisation???? Shocking.

You are missing the point if the supposed unobtrusive organisations such as the GAA and RnaG use such terminology deliberately, instead of the correct terms.

What does it say for those in political circles who have less altruistic motives for a UI going forward?

There will be hardliners on both sides no matter what a UI poll result causes.
Logically some will leave if there is a UI and some will fight their corner.

A UI will only work if the large majority in NI want to just get on with their lives and are not part of the 'flag waving brigade' or 'worse' on either side.
In other words where a large majority vote SDLP or Alliance. Ie not the 'yahoo' brigades.

Is a 51% victory going to mean stability? Only takes a few thousand 'yahoos' as the troubles demonstrated. I think a UI will draw the 'yahoos' on the ROI something that the ROI could do without. Bringing NI's baggage with them.

I was watching a programme on the peace walls in Belfast and it occured to me that the Republican's sense of Irishness has a touch of the Irish-American vibe about it. Bits of Irish phrases plastered around the place Irish named roads. It might as well have been 'Erin go Bragh' as the Irish American yanks say. It seemed very plastic and 'forced' to me. A pretense at being Irish - 'The Gael'. Distant to the real Ireland, where there is much less pantomime.

Some in NI seem to echo Pearse's 'Irish Race' line of thought. Yet if two people of both sides of the peace wall were standing in front of me. I would not be able to tell the different both would have the same Belfast accent and same level of belligerence bubbling underneath.

I think there there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. The majority of people in the ROI do not have the same mindset bar in the 'border areas'. Products of different environments. Yet this is going to be forced on the ROI as if it is a great thing. I am not so sure.

SF is working in two jurisdictions of which they refuse to say the name of. Finally took seats in the Dail after years of not even recognising it nor the courts. They still have an uneasy relationship with the SCC. They almost seem to be in the Dail reluctantly as they closed off the WM option and shut down Stormont when it suits. Normally over a new spurious issue and then reopen. I think I heard Michael Martin refer to it as the 'usual choreographed conversation'.

I heard one of those presenters on NI media, refer to SF the party who is 'offended by everything and ashamed of nothing'. Great way of putting it I thought. Then you have the Unionst crowds like the DUP on top of that!

Yet the majority in the ROI are somehow blindly supposed to just see a UI with the likes of SF and the 'other side up there' dragging their dirt with them into the ROI, and to a greater degree in a UI.

It is akin to 'undesirables' moving into a neighbourhood and lowering the tone.
And it won't work until the parties with a bit of 'cop on' and sense get more support. Those W\who are not into 'choreographed conversation' 'pantomime funerals' 'pantomime flag waving' take charge. People who just want to run things for the benefit of a state.
That is how I view it. Until I see the moderate parties in NI gaining support I would not be too confident or pleased about a UI.

That is before all the discussions about finances, flags, anthems, security and all the jazz.

NI always has a backwater feel to it. The politicians are always akin to glorified county councillors. They dress sloppily are only concerned with tribalism and local issues. Yet someone the poor auld ROI is set be be 'landed' with this crowd. Yahoo's and all. Yahoo's with guns at that, or at least someone who knows a guy, that knows a guy...

Great fun it will be.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Don't tell me, Unionists in a UI are gonna get upset because an organisation that sees itself as part of a 32 county nation since it's birth, starts calling itself a 32 county organisation???? Shocking.

I don’t think they will get upset. It just demonstrates again the the gaa is inherently sectarian

FrancieBrady

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are missing the point if the supposed unobtrusive organisations such as the GAA and RnaG use such terminology deliberately, instead of the correct terms.

Please tell me why or how an organisation which has referred to itself as a cultural and sporting organisation in the 32 county nation of Ireland since it's foundation over 100 years ago, is going to offend Unionists when that 32 county nation unites into a single government UI? (6 of those counties are in a different political jurisdiction currently and need to be distinguished from time to time from Ulster, something Unionists don't do.)


Go on, for once answer the question asked and don't use it to roll out more anti Irish bile.

droidman123

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think they will get upset. It just demonstrates again the the gaa is inherently sectarian

How does calling it "the six counties" make the g.a.a sectarian??

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think they will get upset. It just demonstrates again the the gaa is inherently sectarian

The GAA is made of people of all religions and none.

Do you understand what 'sectarian' means even?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Please tell me why or how an organisation which has referred to itself as a cultural and sporting organisation in the 32 county nation of Ireland since it's foundation over 100 years ago, is going to offend Unionists when that 32 county nation unites into a single government UI? (6 of those counties are in a different political jurisdiction currently and need to be distinguished from time to time from Ulster, something Unionists don't do.)


Go on, for once answer the question asked and don't use it to roll out more anti Irish bile.

It’s just disrespectful that they cannot use the name of the country. It’s like some Serbs won’t say Kosovo
Just petty from the losers. Happens all over the world

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GAA is made of people of all religions and none.

Do you understand what 'sectarian' means even?

So was the ruc and it was called sectarian often enough

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You are missing the point if the supposed unobtrusive organisations such as the GAA and RnaG use such terminology deliberately, instead of the correct terms.

What does it say for those in political circles who have less altruistic motives for a UI going forward?

There will be hardliners on both sides no matter what a UI poll result causes.
Logically some will leave if there is a UI and some will fight their corner.

A UI will only work if the large majority in NI want to just get on with their lives and are not part of the 'flag waving brigade' or 'worse' on either side.
In other words where a large majority vote SDLP or Alliance. Ie not the 'yahoo' brigades.

Is a 51% victory going to mean stability? Only takes a few thousand 'yahoos' as the troubles demonstrated. I think a UI will draw the 'yahoos' on the ROI something that the ROI could do without. Bringing NI's baggage with them.

I was watching a programme on the peace walls in Belfast and it occured to me that the Republican's sense of Irishness has a touch of the Irish-American vibe about it. Bits of Irish phrases plastered around the place Irish named roads. It might as well have been 'Erin go Bragh' as the Irish American yanks say. It seemed very plastic and 'forced' to me. A pretense at being Irish - 'The Gael'. Distant to the real Ireland, where there is much less pantomime.

Some in NI seem to echo Pearse's 'Irish Race' line of thought. Yet if two people of both sides of the peace wall were standing in front of me. I would not be able to tell the different both would have the same Belfast accent and same level of belligerence bubbling underneath.

I think there there is a disconnect between the ROI and NI. The majority of people in the ROI do not have the same mindset bar in the 'border areas'. Products of different environments. Yet this is going to be forced on the ROI as if it is a great thing. I am not so sure.

SF is working in two jurisdictions of which they refuse to say the name of. Finally took seats in the Dail after years of not even recognising it nor the courts. They still have an uneasy relationship with the SCC. They almost seem to be in the Dail reluctantly as they closed off the WM option and shut down Stormont when it suits. Normally over a new spurious issue and then reopen. I think I heard Michael Martin refer to it as the 'usual choreographed conversation'.

I heard one of those presenters on NI media, refer to SF the party who is 'offended by everything and ashamed of nothing'. Great way of putting it I thought. Then you have the Unionst crowds like the DUP on top of that!

Yet the majority in the ROI are somehow blindly supposed to just see a UI with the likes of SF and the 'other side up there' dragging their dirt with them into the ROI, and to a greater degree in a UI.

It is akin to 'undesirables' moving into a neighbourhood and lowering the tone.
And it won't work until the parties with a bit of 'cop on' and sense get more support. Those W\who are not into 'choreographed conversation' 'pantomime funerals' 'pantomime flag waving' take charge. People who just want to run things for the benefit of a state.
That is how I view it. Until I see the moderate parties in NI gaining support I would not be too confident or pleased about a UI.

That is before all the discussions about finances, flags, anthems, security and all the jazz.

NI always has a backwater feel to it. The politicians are always akin to glorified county councillors. They dress sloppily are only concerned with tribalism and local issues. Yet someone the poor auld ROI is set be be 'landed' with this crowd. Yahoo's and all. Yahoo's with guns at that, or at least someone who knows a guy, that knows a guy...

Great fun it will be.

All of that to say nothing.

If Unionism is so brittle to have a meltdown at the use of "Six Counties", then what of it?

There's enough belligerent Unionists out there. They don't need you to stick up for them. It's frankly mental that you've been pushing this the last few days.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think they will get upset. It just demonstrates again the the gaa is inherently sectarian

Explain how the use of 'Six counties' is sectarian?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

It’s just disrespectful that they cannot use the name of the country. It’s like some Serbs won’t say Kosovo
Just petty from the losers. Happens all over the world

So it's not sectarian?

And Nationalists are "losers" is it?

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

So was the ruc and it was called sectarian often enough

You think the RUC wasn't sectarian?

Why did Patton recommend it's dissolution and replacement by the PSNI? For lols?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

It’s just disrespectful that they cannot use the name of the country. It’s like some Serbs won’t say Kosovo
Just petty from the losers. Happens all over the world

Disrespectful to whom?

The GAA was operating in Ireland long before partition downcow.

This little strop is akin to people wanting to burn down British heritage here or to remove the 'royal' from places that had that name, also long before partition.

If we can tolerate those things and indeed cherish the British heritage left behind here, for decades now, why can't unionism for once tolerate the other?

Unbelievable lack of self awareness AGAIN

eire4

BonnieSituation wrote: »

All of that to say nothing.

If Unionism is so brittle to have a meltdown at the use of "Six Counties", then what of it?

There's enough belligerent Unionists out there. They don't need you to stick up for them. It's frankly mental that you've been pushing this the last few days.

It is just the classic looking for a reason to be offended mentality. I mean the very same people claiming offence at the use of the 6 six counties use Northern Ireland which is clearly incorrect given that Donegal the most northerly county in Ireland is part of the Republic of Ireland. Or Ulster which is also incorrect given 3 of Ulster's counties are in the Republic of Ireland.

jimmycrackcorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Explain how the use of 'Six counties' is sectarian?

Maybe the "Home Counties" in England is also a sectarian term...

BonnieSituation

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Maybe the "Home Counties" in England is also a sectarian term...

It's not.

But, perhaps we could get a straight answer to my question from those Partitionists who love to stick up for belligerent Unionists and their precious sensibilities?

droidman123

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Explain how the use of 'Six counties' is sectarian?

I asked downcow that earlier,still waiting for a reply