Bicycles, Phoenix Park and traffic

Birdie Num Num

cgcsb wrote: »

Shameful display in the park on Sunday, cars parked on the grass on the side roads and bumper to bumper traffic on chesterfield avenue.

Compared to a few weeks ago the value of the park as a facility is now severely reduced. How hard would it be to just block through traffic at the Phoenix Park Monument roundabout.

It is closed every summer for weekends for the last few years and it works very well and there are no complaints. The closure is from Mountjoy to Phoenix. This year there have been restrictions as a result of a pandemic and so only the two main gates (Castleknock & Park Gate St.) have remained open. With all other gates closed they could hardly close off the main gates too. It’s not feasible to do all year round or during midweek with commuting traffic.

Visitors parking up on grass areas is a disgrace. That said, the current restrictions have also seen the likes of the Papal cross carpark closed until 10am in the morning so early visitors that might ordinarily park there are parking up on the grass. The rangers were stickering cars In that vicinity on Saturday morning. Seems at odds with cars parked up on grass on previous occasions and in other locations.

cgcsb

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

It is closed every summer for weekends for the last few years and it works very well and there are no complaints. The closure is from Mountjoy to Phoenix. This year there have been restrictions as a result of a pandemic and so only the two main gates (Castleknock & Park Gate St.) have remained open. With all other gates closed they could hardly close off the main gates too. It’s not feasible to do all year round or during midweek with commuting traffic.

Why is it not feasible? Having the park completely closed to cars worked pretty well during lockdown with plenty of space for people to enjoy. The park was busy with people instead of cars and the deer weren't afraid to roam to any part.

beauf

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

It seems that the OPW plans to keep traffic through the park, so I've often wondered why car traffic is not funnelled up North Road instead of Chesterfield Avenue.

Achieves the same thing, allows cars from Castleknock to Parkgate and vice versa but keeps the main Avenue car free.

Likewise I thought it odd closing the ave only to route traffic through the upper glen rd and across acres rd. you end up doing more driving and through the more scenic areas. North road only would make more sense.

Theres two issues, the through traffic. But also most people drive to the park, even those who aren't commuting through it. There are almost no car parks. Every other park you drive to, park in the car park then enjoy a traffic free park.

Almost everything in the park, has an entrance close to the perimeter, like visitor centre and famleigh. instead they route the traffic jam though the park.

Hurrache

It was never completely closed to cars during the lockdown was it?

Stark

Hurrache wrote: »

It was never completely closed to cars during the lockdown was it?

Chesterfield Avenue was open for essential workers. They had Gardaí at each end checking purpose of journey. In practice this meant the place was practically car free. You could cycle/ jog down Chesterfield Avenue and a car would pass you every couple of minutes as opposed to every couple of seconds.

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

Why is it not feasible? Having the park completely closed to cars worked pretty well during lockdown with plenty of space for people to enjoy. The park was busy with people instead of cars and the deer weren't afraid to roam to any part.

There was no traffic anywhere. you could probably cycle down the M50 during the start of the lock down.

Birdie Num Num

cgcsb wrote: »

Why is it not feasible? Having the park completely closed to cars worked pretty well during lockdown with plenty of space for people to enjoy. The park was busy with people instead of cars and the deer weren't afraid to roam to any part.

Already covered this in a previous post in the thread.

beauf

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

...Parking up on grass areas is a disgrace.

Which is an indication of how many access the park by car to use the park for recreation.

I don't care what they do with it. There are other parks easier to get to.

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

Shameful display in the park on Sunday, cars parked on the grass on the side roads and bumper to bumper traffic on chesterfield avenue.

Compared to a few weeks ago the value of the park as a facility is now severely reduced. How hard would it be to just block through traffic at the Phoenix Park Monument roundabout.

Those are two entirely different issues.

Which shows that blocking through traffic won't solve the parking issue, especially not at weekends.

If they want to stop parking, anywhere clamp them. If you want people to access the park by car provide a proper car park. If you want it to be primarily for locals, ban all cars.

beauf

Truthvader wrote: »

Because its cold and wet and windy.

Anyway your all gung ho - so enjoy yourself. I'll be in my warm car listening to the radio

The main is not rain or cold. Its the wind. But there are eBikes and Scooters (if they make them legal) if thats too much.

cgcsb

beauf wrote: »

But also most people drive to the park, even those who aren't commuting through it.

How do you know this?

cgcsb

Birdie Num Num wrote: »

Already covered this in a previous post in the thread.

I must have flat out ignored that.

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

How do you know this?

I don't "know" it. Its just my opinion. There was a traffic study done before. But I'm not referring to that. its just logical.
The catchment for the park is far larger if you include people who drive. Excluding when there is an event, the park is busiest off peak and full of cars parked all over the place.

While its busy during the lockdown. I've seen it a lot busier in other years.

http://phoenixpark.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Chesterfield-Av-closure-report.pdf

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/plan-to-reduce-phoenix-park-traffic-1.1013400

https://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0920/306369-phoenixpark/

I'm all for improving the cycling in the park. But after 30yrs is a line of traffic cones the best that can be done?

Why is there not enough parking, when vising the park. Why don't they clamp people.
Why do you access Farmleigh and the visitor center by driving though the middle of the park.

No consistency here.

appledrop

On every radio station + news today about long traffic queues over weekend + chaos caused by keeping only two gates open.

They will have to back down + open it up again.

magicbastarder

what were the navan road, conyngham road, etc., like though?

KevRossi

magicbastarder wrote: »

what were the navan road, conyngham road, etc., like though?

The whole of Dublin was a traffic jam. I came from Swords through Malahide and on to Portmarnock and Sutton on the bike yesterday. Bumper to bumper all the way.

If they open the gates, will they shut them again if the traffic persists? Doubt it.

magicbastarder

as i would expect. traffic was mental anyway, but it's because the ashtown gate was closed (which maybe 1% of motorists driving through the park would have used)

polesheep

beauf wrote: »

I don't "know" it. Its just my opinion. There was a traffic study done before. But I'm not referring to that. its just logical.
The catchment for the park is far larger if you include people who drive. Excluding when there is an event, the park is busiest off peak and full of cars parked all over the place.

While its busy during the lockdown. I've seen it a lot busier in other years.

http://phoenixpark.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Chesterfield-Av-closure-report.pdf

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/plan-to-reduce-phoenix-park-traffic-1.1013400

https://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0920/306369-phoenixpark/

I'm all for improving the cycling in the park. But after 30yrs is a line of traffic cones the best that can be done?

Why is there not enough parking, when vising the park. Why don't they clamp people.
Why do you access Farmleigh and the visitor center by driving though the middle of the park.

No consistency here.

Because 'enough' car parking would use up too much of the park. And it would increase over time.

a148pro

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

The car parks along Chesterfield Ave now being the cycle lanes sound like a great improvement and hopefully that will be made permanent.

Personally I think this is a massive dis-improvement. The cycle lanes in the park were lovely to cycle. Now the cycle path is actually on the road. This is much less aesthetic and feels much less safe.

Secondly, not allowing car parking on Chesterfield Avenue has removed loads of car parking space from the park and I suspect contributed a lot to the traffic. People who were used to parking on the road meandering around wondering where they were going to park now or making alternative plans. Parking on that road is inefficient and probably more dangerous than in a set aside car park but at least it occupies only space on the least attractive part of the park, i.e., the road. It also naturally dispersed people to different parts of the park than one car park would have.

The idea that this was done not to improve cycling infrastructure but to allow for more social distancing on the footpaths seems madness to me and is really frustrating to hear. Social distancing in the Phoenix Park? I mean quite apart from how minimal the risk is in walking past people, you could just step onto the grass either side of the path to socially distance. It appears their thinking is there are now two footpaths so there's twice the walking space. But what are people going to do, yoyo across the 25 yards of grass and occasional fencing in between the two paths every time they encounter someone on their path? What makes the path social distance compatible isn't the existence of another footpath 25 yards away, its the grass either side.

The fact that they removed one of the nicest cycle lanes in Dublin because of this logic is deeply frustrating. And the confusion which was already evident from the previous arrangement is now just going to be worse. I was a couple of hundred yards along the path before I realised it was no longer a cycle lane. They've just painted an X through the bicycle signs.

I loved the park during the lockdown, there was one day it was like a cycling festival, I would say literally thousands of cyclists and their families there. But I could cycle to the park with my kids because there was so little traffic on the roads. Now the roads are super busy and its just not safe to cycle there with kids. Consequently I have to drive to the park if I want to cycle there with my kids.

Until cycling and public transport infrastructure to the park is improved then we need car parking facilities there. And Chesterfield Avenue may have been the best of a bunch of bad options. Maybe they should allow parking on the drag to chapelizod or acquire land for a car park there, add a few more pedestrian entrances along that stretch. Don't they have plans for the park, involving a monorail and some kind of ridiculous themed areas complete with "retail experiences"?

beauf

There was meant to a bridge to memorial gardens etc.

Theres a couple of different types of cyclists and some will be content with the old paths the fast cyclists not so much. Always thought they should be on the road anyway. But the parking is an issue there.

cgcsb

The old cycle paths were always full of walkers, and can hardly blame them.

Seth Brundle

cgcsb wrote: »

The old cycle paths were always full of walkers, and can hardly blame them.

Plus cyclists had to cede priority at every junction which Is a PITA when you're commuting.

a148pro

beauf wrote: »

Theres a couple of different types of cyclists and some will be content with the old paths the fast cyclists not so much.

Yes in fairness if you wanted to go fast they were far from ideal

plodder

The Phoenix park is more like a park district with lots of small disjointed parks built around a network of roads. It has such unfulfilled potential. They should bite the bullet and build a kick-ass multi-storey car park in the corner beside the new courts building and the DPP's office. Would be a useful asset for businesses around there during the week anyway, but with shuttle buses inside the park, you could then ban all private motor traffic inside the park. I was in a (much smaller) park in Dresden with a similar looking main avenue though. The vibe when walking/cycling along it is just so different when there are no cars, as compared with what passes for cycle lanes and footpaths at present in it.

beauf

cgcsb wrote: »

The old cycle paths were always full of walkers, and can hardly blame them.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Plus cyclists had to cede priority at every junction which Is a PITA when you're commuting.

Wan't my experience I have basically only 2~4 places where I have junction on the cycle path. In 10@~15 mins thats not much compared when you are stopping every few minutes in the city center. Park is my longest stretch with no stopping on my 40~60 min commute.

In the morning there would be hardly any walkers, and in the evening normally you might have to pass a pedestrian 3~5 times at most. Unless it was a particularly nice evening, then you might find you have to move on to the road. But that wouldn't be that often.

Again not an issue for me as I'm going at a easy pace, and on a MTB with narrow slicks so not an issue to go on the grass if I had to. Though the grass is slippy on slicks. I imagine going fast on 23~25 tyres its more of a pain. But then maybe you should be on the road, on a road bike anyway. One of my moans is people doing 30kph + on the cycle path on racing bikes. I consider that dangerous.

A bigger issue was ninja walkers and runners, often with Dogs on the path at night. They'd see you and your lights, but you'd not see them till last minute. Often they'd not give way.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

The Phoenix park is more like a park district with lots of small disjointed parks built around a network of roads. It has such unfulfilled potential. They should bite the bullet and build a kick-ass multi-storey car park in the corner beside the new courts building and the DPP's office. Would be a useful asset for businesses around there during the week anyway, but with shuttle buses inside the park, you could then ban all private motor traffic inside the park. I was in a (much smaller) park in Dresden with a similar looking main avenue though. The vibe when walking/cycling along it is just so different when there are no cars, as compared with what passes for cycle lanes and footpaths at present in it.

:rolleyes:

beauf

Look at the courts building at the end of the park. Multi story building. Cops park all over the place even on pavement when they visit there. I thought that would have enough parking behind it, but obviously not.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Well why not? If you need a certain capacity then you either build it all on ground level, or you build up (or down) and if you are building right beside another multi-storey building then up sounds reasonable.

cgcsb

plodder wrote: »

Well why not? If you need a certain capacity then you either build it all on ground level, or you build up (or down) and if you are building right beside another multi-storey building then up sounds reasonable.

Because we don't need to attract more cars to our home streets, we've far too many already, thanks.

plodder

cgcsb wrote: »

Because we don't need to attract more cars to our home streets, we've far too many already, thanks.

I think to have any chance of closing the park to private traffic you would have to replace some or all of the free parking inside, not necessarily with free parking mind, but something more than 'on yer bike' or the bus. The zoo for example, I'd say has a lot of visitors who drive from a distance.