Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

Jack1985

Nothing regarding the schedule is confirmed, any referrals to 2 based aircraft are guesses. It would be my opinion that it will be a few more months if not in 2021 before US services resume however and that is purely based on the situation over there.

Fact is both JFK/BOS enjoy very high yields in J - If they weren't those routes wouldn't previously have been daily during the Summer with EI's latest single aisle aircraft increasing J seats by 4 on each flight (from 12 to 16). Plenty of tour group agreements in eco from some of the wealthiest regions in the tri-state east coast area too.

It's very unfortunate BCN/CDG didn't get a chance to give real data on how they would perform, I would point out it was the first attempt at giving the routes the option to perform through US connections as well as locally and inbound.

BZ

HTCOne wrote: »

Shannon seems to elicit unusually emotive responses from people in our industry. Facts are because of the large number of US multinationals based operating in the Shannon Free Zone, Limerick and Galway, there has always been a decent amount of premium traffic to the States, certainly more than you would expect for such a small airport. The inbound US demand is also high but very seasonal.

On the other hand, routes to Paris and Barcelona have been tried and failed numerous times. The DLH FRA route mentioned above was 1 x weekly, to a major hub....1 x weekly. It’s my local airport, I work in the town. My fellow locals will moan and moan about how policy wise it is neglected, great airport, Dublin is too big, and then they’ll happily drive up to Dublin because the flight was cheaper, or there were more options, or the direct flight wasn’t operating from Shannon.

The Shannon group made a profit last year, but it was all from property they own / manage / let out across the country, the airport itself.....I don’t think it could survive without Government help it receives.

Paris and Barcelona may have worked this time due to the ability of connecting passengers to the transatlantics as well as as regular inbound and outbound. I know of of a number of large businesses that frequently travel to Paris that had planned to avail of the service including my own company rather than trek to Dublin several times a week.

FRA was only 1 a week but it was working well to capture the summer German tourists as well as LH giving good fairs for connectivity out of FRA.

I agree about our fellow locals moaning about price etc but not using the services its a complete pain as they are the first to pipe up when a service fails. I would rather pay the bit extra and be home in 20mins from SNN than travel to DUB and back any day.

The current board in SNN is in need of a shake up. They have had their time and now it's time for a fresh outlook on how to best run the airport aswell as the group as a whole. The way they have even handled the last few months has been pretty poor in dealings with operators, airlines, staff etc.

Van.Bosch

Jack1985 wrote: »

Nothing regarding the schedule is confirmed, any referrals to 2 based aircraft are guesses. It would be my opinion that it will be a few more months if not in 2021 before US services resume however and that is purely based on the situation over there.

Fact is both JFK/BOS enjoy very high yields in J - If they weren't those routes wouldn't previously have been daily during the Summer with EI's latest single aisle aircraft increasing J seats by 4 on each flight (from 12 to 16). Plenty of tour group agreements in eco from some of the wealthiest regions in the tri-state east coast area too.

It's very unfortunate BCN/CDG didn't get a chance to give real data on how they would perform, I would point out it was the first attempt at giving the routes the option to perform through US connections as well as locally and inbound.

They were on sale for a while so they might have been able to gauge some level of interest for the future.

knockon

330-200’s getting ready to go to Spain for parking. GEY and LAX (scrapping I believe). What did the cabin crew do on west coast US operations for rest seeing as there is no pod fitted on EY?

Jack1985

Further changes from 20 JUL:

Munich (returning - 4PW)

kevinandrew

knockon wrote: »

330-200’s getting ready to go to Spain for parking. GEY and LAX (scrapping I believe). What did the cabin crew do on west coast US operations for rest seeing as there is no pod fitted on EY?

I don’t think ‘GEY did many, if any, west coast operations. It was most frequent on IAD and YYZ from memory.

Shamrockj

knockon wrote: »

330-200’s getting ready to go to Spain for parking. GEY and LAX (scrapping I believe). What did the cabin crew do on west coast US operations for rest seeing as there is no pod fitted on EY?

It has never operated to the west coast. It would be unable to without crew rest or either blocking off the business cabin

Noxegon

knockon wrote: »

330-200’s getting ready to go to Spain for parking. GEY and LAX (scrapping I believe). What did the cabin crew do on west coast US operations for rest seeing as there is no pod fitted on EY?

Aww, after the hundreds of posts bitching about GEY, they finally sort it out – and now this happens.

goingnowhere

The PEK flights ended last night so EI have a lot of 330's and no business for them

They need 4 at most to operate the schedule for July

goingnowhere

GEY was fixed up and is fully standard now, but it doesn't have the crew rest module, just like EWR. There was a huge backlog in business class seat production at the time.

There are now 4 A330-300 HGW suitable for West coast (EIN/EIM/GCF/GAJ) and two more which could be upgraded (FNH/FNG)

There is effectively no cost difference in flying a -300 HGW and -200, very marginal fuel cost and thats it really and the -300 HGW have a few aero tweaks to improve efficiency.

Cookiemunster

billy few mates wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that the hundreds of posts bitching about the BC seats on GEY was one of the deciding factors in this...?

Christ almighty. That's is not what Noxegon said. He said its a pity that just after it got brought up to standard that it was put in storage. It's the plane that everyone was complain about having sub standard business seats. Absolutely nobody is suggesting that posts on social media or people on here had anything to do with the upgrade

MickeyLeari

<SNIP>

What was wrong with the seats? Was that the ex Qatar plane?

TPMP

BZ wrote: »

I agree about our fellow locals moaning about price etc but not using the services its a complete pain as they are the first to pipe up when a service fails. I would rather pay the bit extra and be home in 20mins from SNN than travel to DUB and back any day.

I agree with what you're saying but sometimes it's unavoidable, and nothing to do with money. The Tenerife flight in Winter flies out on a Thursday morning. That's no good for people who work. No choice but to go to Dublin. Often the various other flights to the UK/Europe are once a week or have dodgy flight times that just don't make any sense for a mid week/weekend away. I'm all for supporting my local airport, but if the flights don't suit me then I have no choice but to look elsewhere.

highlydebased

TPMP wrote: »

I agree with what you're saying but sometimes it's unavoidable, and nothing to do with money. The Tenerife flight in Winter flies out on a Thursday morning. That's no good for people who work. No choice but to go to Dublin. Often the various other flights to the UK/Europe are once a week or have dodgy flight times that just don't make any sense for a mid week/weekend away. I'm all for supporting my local airport, but if the flights don't suit me then I have no choice but to look elsewhere.

It's on a Saturday this year 😄

Kcormahs

Is Aer Lingus getting lined up for a government bailout out towards later in the year?
In Europe so far we have:

Lufthansa (group) €9bn (and waiting on more bailouts for its group airlines including Swiss Austrian)
AF €6bn
KLM €3.4bn
TAP €1.4bn
Iberia +Vueling €1.1bn (credit facility, not government, however through Government and also in talks of getting a further bailout)
Alitalia - renationalised (€3.2bn injection)
SAS £1.08bn
Norwegian £230m


You can argue it’s a private company but so are most of the airlines in the list, including Lufthansa that had 0 government ownership before this. Most of these support funds come from EU through the states. I would believe Aer Lingus will follow at sometime maybe later in the year for the same, and even BA (maybe not through EU because Brexit).
Members here who say the government would rather let AerLingus fall than take a stake or give a bailout, I would strongly disagree. Just my opinion.

goingnowhere

IAG's position is strong, cash in bank, good management, strong profits and with the exception of BA has already restructured heavily to deliver savings, everyone else has either been in trouble or were not delivering profitability levels so were exposed badly. IAG success depends on dealing with BA cost and its reliance on LHR is going to hurt it as its 20-30 euro a passenger more to operate there vs most other airports. IAG has already shutdown its Austrian Level operation.

Its not free money and any government bailout comes with a cost, Lufthansa is being forced to continue its fleet replacement, why A320 and A350 are built in Hamburg...


Lufthansa (group) €9bn - wasn't a strong performer and wasn't delivering the profitability it should, profits dropped by 44% in 2019 (IAG reported 3 times the profit of Lufthansa group for same period)
AF €6bn - basket union case
KLM €3.4bn - dragged down as its part of AF, as a global airline badly impacted due reliance on AMS
TAP €1.4bn - wasn't a strong performer and wasn't delivering the profitability it should
Iberia +Vueling €1.1bn - access to an overdraft basically
Alitalia - seriously stop putting money into it
SAS £1.08bn - almost went to the wall a few years back
Norwegian £230m - seriously stop putting money into it


Any bailout needs an assessment of going concern, is the business viable? Alitalia needs to be put out of its misery

WishUWereHere

goingnowhere wrote: »

IAG's position is strong, cash in bank, good management, strong profits and with the exception of BA has already restructured heavily to deliver savings, everyone else has either been in trouble or were not delivering profitability levels so were exposed badly. IAG success depends on dealing with BA cost and its reliance on LHR is going to hurt it as its 20-30 euro a passenger more to operate there vs most other airports. IAG has already shutdown its Austrian Level operation.

Its not free money and any government bailout comes with a cost, Lufthansa is being forced to continue its fleet replacement, why A320 and A350 are built in Hamburg...


Lufthansa (group) €9bn - wasn't a strong performer and wasn't delivering the profitability it should, profits dropped by 44% in 2019 (IAG reported 3 times the profit of Lufthansa group for same period)
AF €6bn - basket union case
KLM €3.4bn - dragged down as its part of AF, as a global airline badly impacted due reliance on AMS
TAP €1.4bn - wasn't a strong performer and wasn't delivering the profitability it should
Iberia +Vueling €1.1bn - access to an overdraft basically
Alitalia - seriously stop putting money into it

Comm
SAS £1.08bn - almost went to the wall a few years back
Norwegian £230m - seriously stop putting money into it


Any bailout needs an assessment of going concern, is the business viable? Alitalia needs to be put out of its misery

Purely from a layman's perspective, very informative and interesting post. Can I ask, just what is wrong with Alitalia? They seem to be permanently in the sh*t.

Van.Bosch

WishUWereHere wrote: »

Purely from a layman's perspective, very informative and interesting post. Can I ask, just what is wrong with Alitalia? They seem to be permanently in the sh*t.

Most legacy flag carriers were bloated 20 years ago. With the emergence of LCC’s most have cut costs and staff numbers. At every turn Alitalia has baulked at the tough decisions and kept going as if they were a monopoly. The unions are so strong so costs have remained high with little productivity.

They also struggled with a dual hub model and huge competition into Rome.

IngazZagni

The Italian Government don’t have guts to make the changes necessary to make Alitalia a profitable airline. It’s an absolute basket case. As bad as our Government might be at times I just couldn’t see our people tolerating such a thing if say we had a similar state run airline in as much trouble.

An example of the inefficiency is Alitalia having 2 planes based at a particular airport and 6 engineers to work on those aircraft for nightly checks. The rival airline has 6 based aircraft and 2 engineers to do the same tasks.

dfx-

What is Alitalia's selling point? Frankfurt is obviously Lufthansa, Dublin is EI, Stansted is FR so it's not a flag carrier thing, Heathrow is BA etc.

Where does it dominate - even when flying to Rome, I would not think Alitalia

Kcormahs

goingnowhere wrote: »

IAG's position is strong, cash in bank, good management, strong profits and with the exception of BA has already restructured heavily to deliver savings, everyone else has either been in trouble or were not delivering profitability levels so were exposed badly. IAG success depends on dealing with BA cost and its reliance on LHR is going to hurt it as its 20-30 euro a passenger more to operate there vs most other airports. IAG has already shutdown its Austrian Level operation.

Its not free money and any government bailout comes with a cost, Lufthansa is being forced to continue its fleet replacement, why A320 and A350 are built in Hamburg...


Lufthansa (group) €9bn - wasn't a strong performer and wasn't delivering the profitability it should, profits dropped by 44% in 2019 (IAG reported 3 times the profit of Lufthansa group for same period)
AF €6bn - basket union case
KLM €3.4bn - dragged down as its part of AF, as a global airline badly impacted due reliance on AMS
TAP €1.4bn - wasn't a strong performer and wasn't delivering the profitability it should
Iberia +Vueling €1.1bn - access to an overdraft basically
Alitalia - seriously stop putting money into it
SAS £1.08bn - almost went to the wall a few years back
Norwegian £230m - seriously stop putting money into it


Any bailout needs an assessment of going concern, is the business viable? Alitalia needs to be put out of its misery

IAG, as you mention, has good reserves and main point is BA. Even though EI was profitable in the last 4 years since acquisition, its a very small profit generator compared to BA. IAG savings are to be prioritised to BA.
Irish Govt in the mess/transition period that is at present, won’t even give 1 coin of importance to Aer Lingus or aviation (not forgetting it was Fianna fail that started EI’s privatisation and Fianna Gael that sold the left over 25% share, and for the « luck » of EI, these same both parties are in this new govt Formed)
Ireland is falling behind all other countries mentioned above whIch secured Bail out/loans to their airlines. Also, it seems that it would be of a preference choice to send staff to the dole and deal with that afterwards rather than supporting an airline and prevent job losses. Thank god for Europeans, their governments see the aviation sector as a more essential sector and that’s why all bailouts were provided (even though we are an island!! Which needs aviation at a bigger scale?!)
I’d easily see Aer Lingus being cut in 25% at least (routes/frequencies you name it) than the Government intervening to keep its size. And nothing to due with being private as so was Lufthansa which got a €9bn bailout all alone from their govt

Graham

Kcormahs wrote: »

I’d easily see Aer Lingus being cut in 25% at least (routes/frequencies you name it) than the Government intervening to keep its size.

I think that's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

It would make no sense for EI to maintain pre-covid capacity in the current market.

Kcormahs

Graham wrote: »

I think that's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

It would make no sense for EI to maintain pre-covid capacity in the current market.

And what about all that staff, either 20% 30% etc surplus. All made redundant as a consequence? Abroad the bailouts have conditions on protecting jobs and links.

Graham

Kcormahs wrote: »

Abroad the bailouts have conditions on protecting jobs and links.

are you sure?

Reported cuts:

Lufthansa 22,000
KLM 2,000
SAS 5,000

Phen2206

Kcormahs wrote: »

And what about all that staff, either 20% 30% etc surplus. All made redundant as a consequence? Abroad the bailouts have conditions on protecting jobs and links.

That process has already started in EI so its a bit late for them to start talking about involving government in order to keep jobs. The Government won't bail out an airline that doesn't ask for one. There has been no talk from IAG or EI about asking for a bailout for EI as of yet. However that may change if there is no sign of recovery toward the end of the year.

Nijmegen

Kcormahs wrote: »

And what about all that staff, either 20% 30% etc surplus. All made redundant as a consequence? Abroad the bailouts have conditions on protecting jobs and links.

That must be why Lufthansa is laying off 22,000 staff.

Also the government is supporting jobs in EI, through the wage subsidy scheme.

vicwatson

Haven’t the German government taken shares in Lufthansa though?

Inquitus

vicwatson wrote: »

Haven’t the German government taken shares in Lufthansa though?

Yes they have, 20% stake.

Munsterbhoy

Any idea if AL Dub - Copenhagen will be back soon.

Jack1985

Munsterbhoy wrote: »

Any idea if AL Dub - Copenhagen will be back soon.

Believe it finished with EI in late 2015? also had a stint prior to that too circa 2000s.

Wouldn't rule anything out for the future however as theres a very changed landscape of who's operating what in Europe at the moment.