Aer Lingus Fleet/ Routes Discussion Pt 2 (ALL possible routes included)

Any I know want to keep working and weather the storm as the far side will be bright.

kona

Graham wrote: »

I'm sure they don't but pretending drastic changes aren't necessary isn't a solution either.

Definatley, its a difficult sutuation and all the options are ****. At least redundency you get some money.

Theres no guarantee that the aviation world will be the same, certainly not like the last few years for aer lingus.

Graham

Deleted User wrote: »

Any I know want to keep working and weather the storm

Considering opportunities with competing airlines have all but vanished, that doesn't surprise me GVHOT.

kona wrote: »

Definatley, its a difficult sutuation and all the options are ****. At least redundency you get some money.

I would guess many would rather hang on in, all be it on reduced terms rather than face a non-existent market for aviation related jobs.


It is crap. The options are crap. The problem wasn't created by the Airline or the staff but everyone will end up paying for it. The same can be said for many many other industries.

Deleted User wrote: »

the far side will be bright.

Let's hope we reach the far side soon.

kona

Deleted User wrote: »

Any I know want to keep working and weather the storm as the far side will be bright.

You could have a situation where the jobs terms and conditions have been sold, the staff have been on half pay for a year and at the end of it all, are still let go.

Aer lingus enjoyed unprecedented growth the last few years, it would be some turnaround in 2 years to get back to those numbers.

Its a dire situation but people should be treated fairly, we still live in one of the most expensive cities in europe, for some people working half a job isnt really a option.

Jack1985

I note the usual shock and awe tactic created by Aer Lingus Management with their selective leaking of documents for which they have a history of here's a select few (all of which are on the public record);

* Calling staff thieves during the run up to Christmas in 2018 only to later retract the statement and donate €25k to two charity’s after every single employee made their disgust known at the behaviour. They lost their friendship with INM as a result as they called the article ''inaccurate'' despite them quoting an exec memo verbatim.

* Leaking information regards pay rates for working days off for Pilots during a period where they did not have sufficient staffing levels for the 330.

* Releasing diatribe to the Independent to undermine Cabin Crew during discussions on service procedures that they were willing to strike because they didn't want to sell more sandwiches.

This blatant leaking, is the crap EI employees put up with on the constant. Many of you, regulars on the forum know fully well each Summer year after year (at least the last 10) staff are run to the bone expected to works days off etc to support insufficient body numbers. The result is higher profits which was a perfect mix for them to become the IAG golden child.

Once the wheel jams however, the axe is taken out to the employees. The same employees I might add, during previous downturns (Greenfield) who accepted changes to conditions for Profit sharing - They never got a cent of it, as of late EI dragged their heels to avoid it - Again another lie.

You may notice a trend. One video as of late to employees even asked them to avoid being drawn into Industrial matters and then they were told they'll come back to work when they are ready to change and upskill. Yes, the industry is in a crisis, but if anyone really thinks this exec team have any support, they are very mistaken. Nobody trusts them, they hold everyone in contempt and even as the state subevents their payroll and provides them big cash payments for PPE flights they carry on like bank robbers running to smash and dash the T&C's of each department.

Employees aren't fools and the public have had enough of this corporate behaviour.

California Dreamer

Jack1985 wrote: »

Once the wheel jams however, the axe is taken out to the employees.

And the award for post of the year goes to!

Well done sir, very accurate description.

NH2013

Jack1985 wrote: »

I note the usual shock and awe tactic created by Aer Lingus Management with their selective leaking of documents for which they have a history of here's a select few (all of which are on the public record);

* Calling staff thieves during the run up to Christmas in 2018 only to later retract the statement and donate €25k to two charity’s after every single employee made their disgust known at the behaviour. They lost their friendship with INM as a result as they called the article ''inaccurate'' despite them quoting an exec memo verbatim.

* Leaking information regards pay rates for working days off for Pilots during a period where they did not have sufficient staffing levels for the 330.

* Releasing diatribe to the Independent to undermine Cabin Crew during discussions on service procedures that they were willing to strike because they didn't want to sell more sandwiches.

This blatant leaking, is the crap EI employees put up with on the constant. Many of you, regulars on the forum know fully well each Summer year after year (at least the last 10) staff are run to the bone expected to works days off etc to support insufficient body numbers. The result is higher profits which was a perfect mix for them to become the IAG golden child.

Once the wheel jams however, the axe is taken out to the employees. The same employees I might add, during previous downturns (Greenfield) who accepted changes to conditions for Profit sharing - They never got a cent of it, as of late EI dragged their heels to avoid it - Again another lie.

You may notice a trend. One video as of late to employees even asked them to avoid being drawn into Industrial matters and then they were told they'll come back to work when they are ready to change and upskill. Yes, the industry is in a crisis, but if anyone really thinks this exec team have any support, they are very mistaken. Nobody trusts them, they hold everyone in contempt and even as the state subevents their payroll and provides them big cash payments for PPE flights they carry on like bank robbers running to smash and dash the T&C's of each department.

Employees aren't fools and the public have had enough of this corporate behaviour.

Quite the succinct view of the opinions of staff at Aer Lingus, matches exactly what I’ve heard on the topic of cuts and negotiations, there’s no trust in their management not to milk this for all its worth, following years of poor relations and as such it’ll make it all the more difficult to strike a deal to get the Airline through this.

cson

Jack1985 wrote: »

I note the usual shock and awe tactic created by Aer Lingus Management with their selective leaking of documents for which they have a history of here's a select few (all of which are on the public record);

* Calling staff thieves during the run up to Christmas in 2018 only to later retract the statement and donate €25k to two charity’s after every single employee made their disgust known at the behaviour. They lost their friendship with INM as a result as they called the article ''inaccurate'' despite them quoting an exec memo verbatim.

* Leaking information regards pay rates for working days off for Pilots during a period where they did not have sufficient staffing levels for the 330.

* Releasing diatribe to the Independent to undermine Cabin Crew during discussions on service procedures that they were willing to strike because they didn't want to sell more sandwiches.

This blatant leaking, is the crap EI employees put up with on the constant. Many of you, regulars on the forum know fully well each Summer year after year (at least the last 10) staff are run to the bone expected to works days off etc to support insufficient body numbers. The result is higher profits which was a perfect mix for them to become the IAG golden child.

Once the wheel jams however, the axe is taken out to the employees. The same employees I might add, during previous downturns (Greenfield) who accepted changes to conditions for Profit sharing - They never got a cent of it, as of late EI dragged their heels to avoid it - Again another lie.

You may notice a trend. One video as of late to employees even asked them to avoid being drawn into Industrial matters and then they were told they'll come back to work when they are ready to change and upskill. Yes, the industry is in a crisis, but if anyone really thinks this exec team have any support, they are very mistaken. Nobody trusts them, they hold everyone in contempt and even as the state subevents their payroll and provides them big cash payments for PPE flights they carry on like bank robbers running to smash and dash the T&C's of each department.

Employees aren't fools and the public have had enough of this corporate behaviour.

I deeply sympathize with you, but I honestly don't think Joe Public gives a **** so long as they get cheap fares to the Continent and North America. Soon as that goes, and it will, there'll be copious sympathy and calls for nationalization. It'll be too late for a lot of folks by then unfortunately.

Jack1985

cson wrote: »

I deeply sympathize with you, but I honestly don't think Joe Public gives a **** so long as they get cheap fares to the Continent and North America. Soon as that goes, and it will, there'll be copious sympathy and calls for nationalization. It'll be too late for a lot of folks by then unfortunately.

My last remark isn't concered with any member of the public booking a flight to Timbuktu.

My remark is in the context of companies seeking public support in atypical spin information given to media to garner support for them versus support to employees.

They won't get it this time, one just has to look at the complete public fury at BA including from a Conservative Government which would typically remove itself from such situations. What's also different is that Governments are subventing their books.

kevinandrew

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for widespread public support. The general public really don't care about staff relations, most will see it as an unfortunate situation but one many hundreds of thousands across the nation will also be experiencing in a wide range of industries impacted by this crisis. The question will be asked, what makes you so special?

The cynic in me thinks a quick comparison to nurses, care home workers and health care professionals will rapidly extinguish any sympathy airline staff may briefly acquire. I wouldn't put it past the management at Aer Lingus to go that low!

The British Airways comparison is interesting, it has garnered a lot of interest from the UK government, Piers Morgan and the like but again it's dwarfed by other more pressing topics. One clever tactic by the union has been to jump on the "anti-Britishness" of this move, that it's some kind of conspiracy by Willie Walsh, Alex Cruz and IAG to dismantle BA, carve it up and feed it to Iberia and Aer Lingus! Laughable but predictably effective when you consider the political environment in Britain right now.

Jack1985

kevinandrew wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for widespread public support. The general public really don't care about staff relations, most will see it as an unfortunate situation but one many hundreds of thousands across the nation will also be experiencing in a wide range of industries impacted by this crisis. The question will be asked, what makes you so special?....

I haven't inferred any member of EI are seeking public support. It shouldn't be the case in any normal functioning work place regardless with good managerial relations.

My remarks, relate to selective leaking of documents which seek to change agendas to invoke emotion - the basis of which is to undermine arguments of your opponent. Try that when your using Taxpayer funds to support your payroll and the public will be very cynical.

‘What makes you so special’ you say – Let me me remind you that you’re speaking about fellow human beings in the midst of a global pandemic who now have the added burden of financial worry strewn across papers and then have the displeasure to read comments like yours.

kevinandrew wrote: »

The cynic in me thinks a quick comparison to nurses, care home workers and health care professionals will rapidly extinguish any sympathy airline staff may briefly acquire. I wouldn't put it past the management at Aer Lingus to go that low!

Almost as low as posting that?

kevinandrew wrote: »

that it's some kind of conspiracy by Willie Walsh, Alex Cruz and IAG to dismantle BA, carve it up and feed it to Iberia and Aer Lingus!

Can you provide factual background to these baseless points, that I have yet to read in any public paper? They don’t even warrant a comment they are so frankly, unhinged.

Tenger

Jack1985 wrote: »

.....
Almost as low as posting that?

.......

I actually agree with Kevinandrew regarding the depths that EI mgmt might go in vilification of those "evil unions with their negotiated agreements rather than allowing the white knight employer to talk directly to their loyal staff"

kevinandrew

Jack1985 wrote: »

I haven't inferred any member of EI are seeking public support. It shouldn't be the case in any normal functioning work place regardless with good managerial relations.

My remarks, relate to selective leaking of documents which seek to change agendas to invoke emotion - the basis of which is to undermine arguments of your opponent. Try that when your using Taxpayer funds to support your payroll and the public will be very cynical.

‘What makes you so special’ you say – Let me me remind you that you’re speaking about fellow human beings in the midst of a global pandemic who now have the added burden of financial worry strewn across papers and then have the displeasure to read comments like yours.



Almost as low as posting that?



Can you provide factual background to these baseless points, that I have yet to read in any public paper? They don’t even warrant a comment they are so frankly, unhinged.

I understand you work for the company and you have my sympathy at a time like this, as do all the staff at the airline and various others across the industry.

You’ve clearly taken my post very, very personally but I promise you that was not my intention. My post is largely hypothetical, nowhere did I suggest they are my personal views but they are my predictions of how any potential public clash between staff and management will play out in the short term.

You posted in detail the various tactics that management have allegedly employed against staff in recent times, notice how nowhere have I questioned you on that point. However, if you think the mere suggestion of a comparison with healthcare workers is low, fair enough, but let’s not pretend it’s not likely to be considered by the same management you’ve just told us are so willing to publicly drag its staff through the mud.

As for the situation at British Airways. The #BAbetrayal tactic is playing out on social media rather than newspapers, it simply reaches a wider public audience. A quick look at the hashtag will reveal various new accounts set up in support of the unions and staff position, often regurgitating the conspiracies and predictions I previously mentioned. Again, I was highlighting the narrative and tactics used, nowhere did I suggest these were right or wrong but they are a reality in such situations and it’s naive to suggest otherwise.

I will try and be more mindful that staff read this forum while maintaining the belief that on a public forum we are free to discuss any reasonable eventuality.

Jack1985

kevinandrew wrote: »

As for the situation at British Airways. The #BAbetrayal tactic is playing out on social media rather than newspapers, it simply reaches a wider public audience. A quick look at the hashtag will reveal various new accounts set up in support of the unions and staff position, often regurgitating the conspiracies and predictions I previously mentioned. Again, I was highlighting the narrative and tactics used, nowhere did I suggest these were right or wrong but they are a reality in such situations and it’s naive to suggest otherwise.

Open public debate is what holds individuals and organisations to account during industrial unrest, not postings behind social media channels or public forums which often become slanderous and aren't usually validatable in terms of accuracy.

You'll note in BA, Alex Cruz has been missing since April - Instead the Group CEO penned to leave by Q3, will be the fall man for public debate.

There is the unwelcome fact for BA that a Conservative Government would be up in arms at their actions - typically they'd be free to roam in such political environments and I don't believe this has come as a welcome addition to them.

kevinandrew wrote: »

I will try and be more mindful that staff read this forum while maintaining the belief that on a public forum we are free to discuss any reasonable eventuality.

Please be assured firstly, that you are entitled to post information you see fit and can stand over as is any individual, in a free and open society.

I would like to point out, despite the previous history, EI have yet to stoop to the low of some of the points you made in the previous post. In the interest of wellbeing of employees, I would hope it would never come to a public bullying campaign that has no place in the current environment of heightened public tension.

I understand what is causing fury at these actions which include a plan in BA to essentially fire and rehire 30,000 people (sacking 12,000).

In the draft document posted by RTÉ in detail, EI set to seek precedent by stopping industrial action between now and February 2022 when not me, nor you know what will happen in 18 months nor did we know what would happen 3 months ago.

I will finally point out, what I have posted I can stand over, and I've linked them here for everyone’s attention.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/charities-in-the-money-as-aer-lingus-seeks-to-shift-blame-for-pr-disaster-of-its-own-making-37607934.html

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-in-pilot-standoff-as-captains-refuse-5000-extra-to-fly-on-their-day-off-37489498.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/aer-lingus-staff-plan-strike-over-selling-of-sandwiches-35351179.html

cson

Whatever happens its going to be a much smaller industry and company for the short term. Air Canada and Austrian on record as saying their projections don't see a recovery to 2019 levels until about 2023. Particularly pronounced for EI given the gateways to/from the US remain shut.

Hopefully whatever RIFs, Salary and T&C adjustments are made can be done equitably, and highlighting some of the media bias like you've done should go some way in helping keep EI honest.

Tenger

Nijmegen wrote: »

IAG as a group, operating as normal, had costs just shy of €23bn (€22,893m to be precise) in 2019. That's about €440.25m per week. 22 weeks of operation and the cash pile is gone............

Just reading the article below. It states IAG costs are 178m pounds per week. Granted it depends on how you tally up the weekly costs.

https://ukaviation.news/iag-owned-iberia-agrees-to-buy-air-europe-for-almost-e1bn/amp/

LXFlyer

Jack1985 wrote: »

Open public debate is what holds individuals and organisations to account during industrial unrest, not postings behind social media channels or public forums which often become slanderous and aren't usually validatable in terms of accuracy.

You'll note in BA, Alex Cruz has been missing since April - Instead the Group CEO penned to leave by Q3, will be the fall man for public debate.

There is the unwelcome fact for BA that a Conservative Government would be up in arms at their actions - typically they'd be free to roam in such political environments and I don't believe this has come as a welcome addition to them.

Please be assured firstly, that you are entitled to post information you see fit and can stand over as is any individual, in a free and open society.

I would like to point out, despite the previous history, EI have yet to stoop to the low of some of the points you made in the previous post. In the interest of wellbeing of employees, I would hope it would never come to a public bullying campaign that has no place in the current environment of heightened public tension.

I understand what is causing fury at these actions which include a plan in BA to essentially fire and rehire 30,000 people (sacking 12,000).

In the draft document posted by RTÉ in detail, EI set to seek precedent by stopping industrial action between now and February 2022 when not me, nor you know what will happen in 18 months nor did we know what would happen 3 months ago.

I will finally point out, what I have posted I can stand over, and I've linked them here for everyone’s attention.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/charities-in-the-money-as-aer-lingus-seeks-to-shift-blame-for-pr-disaster-of-its-own-making-37607934.html

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/aer-lingus-in-pilot-standoff-as-captains-refuse-5000-extra-to-fly-on-their-day-off-37489498.html

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/aer-lingus-staff-plan-strike-over-selling-of-sandwiches-35351179.html

To be honest, in my view public debate about ongoing industrial disputes never really solves anything, as people outside the organisation are not going to know the ins and outs of people’s terms and conditions nor the finances of the company.

No one outside of an organisation can ever know the two sides of the argument sufficiently well in order to make an informed viewpoint.

I will say that I don’t think either side should be leaking anything. Industrial disputes are only ever solved at a negotiating table. Whoever is leaking documents is not helping things.

That being said, where a company tries to do something illegal in breach of employment law, that is worthy of external debate.

Jack1985

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be honest, in my view public debate about ongoing industrial disputes never really solves anything, as people outside the organisation are not going to know the ins and outs of people’s terms and conditions nor the finances of the company.

No one outside of an organisation can ever know the two sides of the argument sufficiently well in order to make an informed viewpoint.

I will say that I don’t think either side should be leaking anything. Industrial disputes are only ever solved at a negotiating table. Whoever is leaking documents is not helping things.

That being said, where a company tries to do something illegal in breach of employment law, that is worthy of external debate.

I completely agree with this.

Nijmegen

Tenger wrote: »

Just reading the article below. It states IAG costs are 178m pounds per week. Granted it depends on how you tally up the weekly costs.

https://ukaviation.news/iag-owned-iberia-agrees-to-buy-air-europe-for-almost-e1bn/amp/

Sourced my figure from here: https://www.iairgroup.com/~/media/Files/I/IAG/documents/IAG%20Annual%20report%20and%20accounts%202019.pdf

P132, consolidated income statement.

The £178m per week is probably what they're burning through with almost everything grounded and many staff on some form of a pay reduction. Looking at normal operation fuel, handling, catering etc makes up ~€11bn of the €22.9bn in cost at the airline.

That's still ~€200m per week and the losses would only go up if they were actually flying and maintaining the fleet with loads being low. So the suggestion that they just stand wholesale by the staff because they were profitable before still just eats up your cash at a mega quick rate.

Jack1985

In a final draft document EI has removed its tabling of banning of industrial action; removed 30% pay proposal; reversed Shannon job losses. Still however RTÉ have the news before members.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0612/1147159-aer-lingus-recovery-plan/

joeysoap

Jack1985 wrote: »

In a final draft........RTÉ have the news before members.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0612/1147159-aer-lingus-recovery-plan/

Why change the habits of a lifetime?

MickeyLeari

BA just extended my silver membership for another year.

Aer Lingus have not even provided me with a voucher 11 weeks after applying for it.

MickeyLeari

MickeyLeari wrote: »

BA just extended my silver membership for another year.

Aer Lingus have not even provided me with a voucher 11 weeks after applying for it.

BA though are having serious serious PR issues and need to save some of their customers. I’m not surprised that BA have done that now, pretty every other airline had done it already and they were getting serious flack for not even commenting on the issue till now.

Tenger

Jack1985 wrote: »

In a final draft document EI has removed its tabling of banning of industrial action; removed 30% pay proposal; reversed Shannon job losses. Still however RTÉ have the news before members.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0612/1147159-aer-lingus-recovery-plan/

Maybe I'm cynical but I'm guessing EI leaked the "final draft" in order to paint the unions are unwilling to compromise.

Jack1985

Tenger wrote: »

Maybe I'm cynical but I'm guessing EI leaked the "final draft" in order to paint the unions are unwilling to compromise.

With previous track records, it’s not a wild assumption. The unions only received this final draft this evening, the contents are accurate but no agreement has been reached - So whoever Ingrid Miley's source is seems to be a bit excited at the final draft document.

These clowns leaking should realise they do a disservice to their own agenda’s as they create more of a pro-Management leaking trail for everyone else to have the pleasure to identify and further widen the gap of distrust in the workforce.

Bussywussy

Unions agree to bend over should be the headline

Jack1985

Bussywussy wrote: »

Unions agree to bend over should be the headline

Nothing has been agreed to. RTÉ have released an update this morning.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0613/1147229-aer-lingus-deal/

Bussywussy

Jack1985 wrote: »

Nothing has been agreed to. RTÉ have released an update this morning.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0613/1147229-aer-lingus-deal/

Only mentions cabin crew, i believe the 3 (yes you see three) engineering unions have indeed bent over but id believe it,weak as water.

IngazZagni

Unions are only as strong as their member base. The less staff involved in the union the weaker it is and indeed being spread across 3 unions will do you no favours either. The amount of stuff leaked to the media also is a massive issue. Folks have to remember that when they blame “the union” they are often talking about their own colleagues and they should perhaps ask instead what can they do to help? Constructive criticism vs a dismissive defeatist attitude etc. The alternative is these measures or worse being pushed through with no resistance.

Jack1985

Aer Lingus intends to return the following services as of 01JUL; with sun services booking very well - The Irish Government are expected to drop the quarentine policy and recommendation against travel for Irish Citizens toward the end of the month, but have yet to publicly announce it.

ALICANTE

EI574 DUB0750-1140ALC 320 34567
EI575 ALC1240-1430DUB 320 34567

FARO

EI494 DUB0900-1205FAO 320 1234567
EI495 FAO1245-1550DUB 320 1234567

LANZAROTE

EI778 DUB1300-1715ACE 321* 1234567
EI779 ACE1820-2220DUB 321* 1234567

MALAGA

EI586 DUB0900-1305AGP 321* 1234567
EI587 AGP1345-1550DUB 321* 1234567

EI584 DUB1000-1405AGP 320 246
EI585 AGP1445-1650DUB 320 246

PALMA MAJORCA

EI738 DUB1530-1915PMI 320 4567
EI739 PMI2025-2210DUB 320 4567

PARIS (CDG)

EI520 DUB0700-0950CDG 320 1234567
EI521 CDG1030-1115DUB 320 1234567

ROME FIUMICINO

EI402 DUB1230-1635FCO 320 1234567
EI403 FCO1725-1950DUB 320 1234567

*Substituted for some days with A320 operating.