Fianna Fail on 14%

Junkyard Tom

Hamsterchops wrote: »

The Provos delt with anybody who got in their way (Protestant, Catholic, Unionist or Nationalist), all victims either had with their knee caps blown off, or their legs shredded (semtex), or sometimes even their heads were taken off (semtex again), other victims were made disappear, sometimes found years later with an extra hole in their skull.

As I said, the main difference between the Provos and the IRA (of old) was the withdrawal of British troops.

It's a shame the British refused to respect the independence the vast majority of Irish people sought in 1918. Instead London empowered a minority Unionist population who threatened carnage and mass terrorism if they didn't get their rotten little one-party ethno-statelet.

Just six more counties to go and we can finally remove the toxic influence of the British state in Ireland which still plagues us to this day, no pun intended.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So Junkyard, for some reason I sense from you more than a little hankering for the good old days, when the armalite, stakeknife, & semtex were king :cool:

So with this in mind, here goes, specially for you.

There is no argument amongst all Irish & British parties (bar Sinn Fein) that the actions of the PIRA during the Troubles were unauthorised, evil and without our consent, hence their actions were not carried out in our name!

The Provos delt with anybody who got in their way (Protestant, Catholic, Unionist or Nationalist), all victims either had with their knee caps blown off, or their legs shredded (semtex), or sometimes even their heads were taken off (semtex again), other victims were made disappear, sometimes found years later with an extra hole in their skull.

Thankfully Adams has left the stage, leaving his bloody footprints as he went, leaving Mary Lou to take the movement to a higher level, however...

Mary Lou must now admit, that Adams PIRA campaign was nothing less than an unauthorised Terrorist campaign, waged without any consent from the Irish people.

Once SF acknowledge this (unlikely), then there might be talks with Fianna Fail, at some point in the distant future?

Are you speaking on behalf of FF there?

The only thing stopping Martin talking to SF in reality this time was equality.
He thought he had the upper hand in seats when he opened the door to talks.
When he realised he was going to have the same amount of seats he withdrew.

Probably because he knew the price he'd be made to pay was Mary Lou being Taoiseach before him.

FF could not give a rat's ass about the conflict/war unless it is politically expedient for them to.

Hamsterchops

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Just six more counties to go and we can finally remove he toxic influence of the British state in Ireland which still plagues us to this day, no pun intended.

Yes indeed, only six to go before total island domination by SF, but how do you convince one million Unionist/British (+ many Nationalist) people of NI to vote for a 32 county Republic?

Bombing & shooting then into submission didn't work in the past, so what now? Why should they wave goodbye to the NHS, the BBC, PSNI, etc plus the massive annual purse from Westminster ...

What's the big carrot ?

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

As I said, the main difference between the Provos and the IRA (of old) was the withdrawal of British troops.

Legitimacy, the main difference was legitimacy.
The Irish Independence campaign of 1919-1921 had a democratic mandate as seen by the election of 1918.

The Provisional IRA campaign had as much democratic legitimacy as those thugs in the Real-IRA that gunned down Lyra McKee, which was none.

Also, the Provos deliberately targetted civilians, which was a war crime as stated by the Geneva Convention.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

Legitimacy, the main difference was legitimacy.

The election of 1918 wasn't a mandate to start a campaign of terror against the forces of law-and-order unless you considered the forces of the state illegitimate and if that's the case then what magic dust did they sprinkle on themselves to create legitimacy after then?

It could be argued that the forces of the British state provoked the IRA in 1969 far more than they did in 1919 and that state was a gerrymandered, sectarian, shithole that had even less legitimacy than its precedent.

Junkyard Tom

Hamsterchops wrote: »

how do you convince one million Unionist/British

There is no requirement to convince people of any contemporary political persuasion - read the Good Friday Agreement.

If you, with your unionist sympathies, think you'll get away with devaluing the votes of the 'wrong people' again then you're going to be disappointed.

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The election of 1918 wasn't a mandate to start a campaign of terror against the forces of law-and-order unless you considered the forces of the state illegitimate and if that's the case then what magic dust did they sprinkle on themselves to create legitimacy after then?

The Irish War of Independence had widespread popular support among its citizens, (See the election of 1918) something that can never be argued by the Provo's. Them are the facts my friend.

It could be argued that the forces of the British state provoked the IRA in 1969 far more than they did in 1919 and that state was a gerrymandered, sectarian, shithole that had even less legitimacy than its precedent.

Is that some kind of pompous justification for the Provos carrying out war-crimes?

War crimes are war crimes.

Junkyard Tom

markodaly wrote: »

The Irish War of Independence had widespread popular support among its citizens, (See the election of 1918)

The election of 1918 wasn't a mandate to start a terrorist insurgency against the forces of law-and-order unless you considered those forces illegitimate.

You have no idea how much support the IRA had in 1919. Even if it did have support, so what? Either the forces of the state were legitimate or they weren't and if they weren't then what mental contortions are you performing to make them legitimate after partition?

Is that some kind of pompous justification for the Provos carrying out war-crimes?

You won't find one post of mine in on boards.ie celebrating violence of any type.

War crimes are war crimes.

Indeed.

Hamsterchops

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If you, with your unionist sympathies, think you'll get away with devaluing the votes of the 'wrong people' again then you're going to be disappointed.

Unionist sympathies, disappointed ?

No, neither apply to me, but I do like to see both sides of the devide,. I admire moderate Unionism as I admire moderate Nationalism, but I really don't like your defence of violent Republicanism. I am a big fan of John Hume & the late Seamus Mallon, plus Unionists like David Trimble, in the same breath I would not be a fan of Gerry Adams and his legacy. Votes are votes, and in my ideal world the SDLP & the UUP would be in power up North.

In the middle, that's where I stand.

Getting back to Fianna Fail in this State, well it's not looking good and I don't know exactly where they've gone wrong?

blinding

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Unionist sympathies, disappointed ?

No, neither apply to me, but I do like to see both sides of the devide,. I admire moderate Unionism as I admire moderate Nationalism, but I really don't like your defence of violent Republicanism. I am a big fan of John Hume & the late Seamus Mallon, plus Unionists like David Trimble, in the same breath I would not be a fan of Gerry Adams and his legacy. Votes are votes, and in my ideal world the SDLP & the UUP would be in power up North.

In the middle, that's where I stand.

Getting back to Fianna Fail in this State, well it's not looking good and I don't know exactly where they've gone wrong?

By Being the FF they are Since Sean Lemass. Thats where they went wrong.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Unionist sympathies, disappointed ?

No, neither apply to me, but I do like to see both sides of the devide,. I admire moderate Unionism as I admire moderate Nationalism, but I really don't like your defence of violent Republicanism. I am a big fan of John Hume & the late Seamus Mallon, plus Unionists like David Trimble, in the same breath I would not be a fan of Gerry Adams and his legacy. Votes are votes, and in my ideal world the SDLP & the UUP would be in power up North.

In the middle, that's where I stand.

Getting back to Fianna Fail in this State, well it's not looking good and I don't know exactly where they've gone wrong?

You singled out one side as having 'no legitimacy' when the fact is no side 'had legitimacy' formally.
Neither Irish, Unionist or British.
Your 'view' is not a 'middle' view by any stretch of the imagination.

On topic: FF have gone wrong because they stand for nothing only power. They are the chameleons of Irish politics, attempting to be FG one day and SF the next.
It has failed spectacularly for them so far. Michael Martin may be the most distrusted party leader on the island.

Shefwedfan

Ireland cannot afford the 6 counties. Simple as that. Just have a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Northern_Ireland

Leave it where it is. The UK has to pay to keep it running, in reality most of the North(builders etc) are working in the South or in UK anyway. Bringing it in with the Republic would only cripple both economies as we could not afford to pump the money into it that the UK does. The rest work in public sector, no idea what they are doing but we couldn't afford to keep that afloat so we would have mass unemployment

We get hold of the rugby players which is a big bonus.

If it did become part of south another spate of bombing etc would kick off. We would have to deal with those stupid march's.

Who exactly wants a united Ireland? it makes very little difference anymore with the border gone. Plus it would shut down parcel motel :-)

Not sure why we are discussing a United Ireland on a FF thread......but anyway

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You singled out one side as having 'no legitimacy' when the fact is no side 'had legitimacy' formally.
Neither Irish, Unionist or British.
Your 'view' is not a 'middle' view by any stretch of the imagination.

On topic: FF have gone wrong because they stand for nothing only power. They are the chameleons of Irish politics, attempting to be FG one day and SF the next.
It has failed spectacularly for them so far. Michael Martin may be the most distrusted party leader on the island.

Unfortunealty for Mary Lou she had the chance to get rid of that title on the Late Late but failed spectacularly when questions about "Up da Ra" politician.



This is the issue with SF, Mary Lou does somethign good but will always get dragged down by the rest of the party.

blinding

FF are certainly not a 32 County Irish Republican Party. That is for sure.

Shefwedfan

blinding wrote: »

FF are certainly not a 32 County Irish Republican Party. That is for sure.

Only for Bertie the troubles would still be on-going. He was critical to pulling that deal together. If SF had it's way the Good Friday would never have happened, only for Bertie and Clinton running the show.....

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Unfortunealty for Mary Lou she had the chance to get rid of that title on the Late Late but failed spectacularly when questions about "Up da Ra" politician.



This is the issue with SF, Mary Lou does somethign good but will always get dragged down by the rest of the party.

Michael Martin, (his leadership currently commanding 14% of the polls, and only 22% of the vote in the last general election) MAY be the most distrusted leader on the island. Discuss.

*Add in that in the latest poll, FF are the ONLY one of the main political parties that have shed votes...a massive 8% in a couple of months)

blinding

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Only for Bertie the troubles would still be on-going. He was critical to pulling that deal together. If SF had it's way the Good Friday would never have happened, only for Bertie and Clinton running the show.....

Listening to Bertie waffling on with his bull$hit probably did wear down Unionists alright. They are tough enough but nobody / nothing is tough enough to listen to Bertie’s waffle ! !

Floppybits

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Getting back to Fianna Fail in this State, well it's not looking good and I don't know exactly where they've gone wrong?

You really can't understand where it has all gone wrong for FF? Really? The party have been up to their eyeballs in scandals and corruption for decades, gun running, dodgy dealng, P Flynn, Haughey, beef tribunal, Planning tribunal, moriarty tribunal, not to mention taking their eye off the wheel while the economy went off a cliff and you say you don't know where it has gone wrong?

Then if we go the present day FF party that tried in the last few years to play both sides while sitting on the fence, a leader that people would not trust to walk a dog, a severe lack of talent in the party, how many of the FF party would get a ministry if a government was being selected from all parties? The whole party does not inspire confidence, they offer nothing, when I look at the FF party all I see are a pack of scavanagers waiting to get their fill at the trough. They are old and stale and this coalition with FG will hopefully finally put the nail in their coffin.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Michael Martin, (his leadership currently commanding 14% of the polls, and only 22% of the vote in the last general election) MAY be the most distrusted leader on the island. Discuss.

*Add in that in the latest poll, FF are the ONLY one of the main political parties that have shed votes...a massive 8% in a couple of months)

The only poll that counts is the election. I don't care about these polls and I have said this before....it is a view in time of a restricted number of people.....


Who says he is the most distrusted?



He has been vocal but clearly has taken a step back in the last few weeks and most interviews is done via social media direct to FF supporters. He has started to come back into media like RTE so that will have a affect on these swing voters.

Shefwedfan

Floppybits wrote: »

You really can't understand where it has all gone wrong for FF? Really? The party have been up to their eyeballs in scandals and corruption for decades, gun running, dodgy dealng, P Flynn, Haughey, beef tribunal, Planning tribunal, moriarty tribunal, not to mention taking their eye off the wheel while the economy went off a cliff and you say you don't know where it has gone wrong?

Then if we go the present day FF party that tried in the last few years to play both sides while sitting on the fence, a leader that people would not trust to walk a dog, a severe lack of talent in the party, how many of the FF party would get a ministry if a government was being selected from all parties? The whole party does not inspire confidence, they offer nothing, when I look at the FF party all I see are a pack of scavanagers waiting to get their fill at the trough. They are old and stale and this coalition with FG will hopefully finally put the nail in their coffin.

They still won the most seats in the election....that all that counts doesn't it?


If nobody thrusts FF and the above is correct, then at the worst time ever they still won the most seats

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The only poll that counts is the election. I don't care about these polls and I have said this before....it is a view in time of a restricted number of people.....


Who says he is the most distrusted?



He has been vocal but clearly has taken a step back in the last few weeks and most interviews is done via social media direct to FF supporters. He has started to come back into media like RTE so that will have a affect on these swing voters.

I said 'Martin MAY be the most distrusted leader on this island'. Discuss.

The only way we have of assessing the current picture is by polls. And in the latest one, (incidentally conducted by RedC who consistently OVER estimated FF support in the run up to the election) shows FF free-falling to 14%. The only main party to fall in voter preference.

Floppybits

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They still won the most seats in the election....that all that counts doesn't it?

If that is the case then Martin has failed miserably? In the last election he failed to capitalise on the country's complete dislike and distrust of FG, he also failed to read the mood of the country and what the people wanted and allowed SF to steal in there and become the second largest party in the Dail.

By right FF should have been on 50/60 seats but they failed because of their leaders inability to communicate successfully with the people of the country. Add into that fact that Martin himself only got elected on the 6th count in his own constituency? Not forgetting the complete lack of talent that there is in the party.

The only reason why FF are the largest party (by a nose hair) is because SF didn't run enough candidates and the lack of trust in SF, if SF had those 2 things in the last election then they would be the ones sitting on 50 or so seats. Martin can bless his lucky stars they didn't.

Shefwedfan

Floppybits wrote: »

If that is the case they Martin has failed miserably? In the last election he failed to capitalise on the country's complete dislike and distrust of FG, he also failed to read the mood of the country and what the people wanted and allowed SF to steal in there and become the second largest party in the Dail.

By right FF should have been on 50/60 seats but they failed because of their leaders inability to communicate successfully with the people of the country. Add into that fact that Martin himself only got elected on the 6th count in his own constituency? Not forgetting the complete lack of talent that there is in the party.

The only reason why FF are the largest party (by a nose hair) is because SF didn't run enough candidates and the lack of trust in SF, if SF had those 2 things in the last election then they would be the ones sitting on 50 or so seats. Martin can bless his lucky stars they didn't.

I am no fan of MM and yes as a FF supporter I would have preferred he left prior to the election but he didn't and to be fair he still won the most seats and will be Taoiseach by the looks of it.

SF got hammered in local election not so long ago, they have done nothing to change so they didn't expect the revolt vote that happened. Running more candidates would it have worked? the fact they had one politician on the voting card as people just picked SF....they had no idea who the politician was, case in point Violet Anne.

If they ran more candidates would the press have taken more interest and pulled the manifesto apart more?

So guess who and what would have happened if pointless. At the end of day FF won the most seats in the election, that is all that counts

markodaly

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The election of 1918 wasn't a mandate to start a terrorist insurgency against the forces of law-and-order unless you considered those forces illegitimate.

You have no idea how much support the IRA had in 1919. Even if it did have support, so what? Either the forces of the state were legitimate or they weren't and if they weren't then what mental contortions are you performing to make them legitimate after partition?

I am of the opinion that we might have achieved independence via the Home Rule Bill, i.e. independence without the gun, so I have no love for the war of independence and its heroic narrative.

However, in fairness to them, again the election of 1918 was pretty clear. SF of the time got a mandate and it was explicit what that meant. If the British were not going to grant Ireland Independence via a democratic mandate given to SF winning the 1918 election, then war was going to be inevitable.
The electorate knew this was what they were voting for. Read or listen to Diarmuid Ferriter on his remarks on this.

However, because of this, and the unease which many Irish people had with violent republicanism, it put a lid (somewhat) on the violence as its leaders knew that if they went too far they would lose public support en mass. Hence the war was short-ish and there was a treaty which resulted in a compromise.

The north was a different kettle of fish. The Provos had no democratic mandate at all, bombed and targetted civilians at will, were utterly deluded and myopic about their aims (which they never achieved), hence it lasted 30+ years.

In other words, to compare them like for like is wrong.

You won't find one post of mine in on boards.ie celebrating violence of any type.



Indeed.

Fair enough. I can respect that.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I said 'Martin MAY be the most distrusted leader on this island'. Discuss.

The only way we have of assessing the current picture is by polls. And in the latest one, (incidentally conducted by RedC who consistently OVER estimated FF support in the run up to the election) shows FF free-falling to 14%. The only main party to fall in voter preference.

We had an election in Feb, so the RedC poll is a waste of time. A few weeks ago it had FG as dead in the water now its FF.....

Whats the swing since the FG thread when you jumped all over that? when FG went way down???

The fact the RedC poll was so out at the election shows how stupid they are to use as a guide

Hamsterchops

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You singled out one side as having 'no legitimacy' when the fact is no side 'had legitimacy' formally.
Neither Irish, Unionist or British.
Your 'view' is not a 'middle' view by any stretch of the imagination.

I make no apologies for siding with the SDLP and their brand of legitimate Nationalism, no apologies at all. And I will never fail to argue against those who espouse illigitimate violence as a means to attaining their aims.

Getting back to FF, they are the true Irish Republican party, and hopefully they are the ones to emerge victorious out if this political quagmire, possibly after a 2nd general election?

FrancieBrady

Shefwedfan wrote: »

We had an election in Feb, so the RedC poll is a waste of time. A few weeks ago it had FG as dead in the water now its FF.....

Whats the swing since the FG thread when you jumped all over that? when FG went way down???

The fact the RedC poll was so out at the election shows how stupid they are to use as a guide

The poll wasn't 'so out'. They consistently overestimated FF support but were largely on trend and close to the actual outcome. You can factor that over estimation into the 14% they are at currently.

FrancieBrady

Hamsterchops wrote: »

I make no apologies for siding with the SDLP and their brand of legitimate Nationalism, no apologies at all. And I will never fail to argue against those who espouse illigitimate violence as a means to attaining their aims.

So why did you single out one side? All the violence was 'illegitimate' including that of the British.

Getting back to FF, they are the true Irish Republican party, and hopefully they are the ones to emerge victorious out if this political quagmire, possibly after a 2nd general election?

Good luck with that one.

Shefwedfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The poll wasn't 'so out'. They consistently overestimated FF support but were largely on trend and close to the actual outcome. You can factor that over estimation into the 14% they are at currently.

If they are only on trend close to election then we are 5 years out from an election by the looks of it so they are probably a million miles out


Your grasping at straws, one minute you are saying they over estimate then the next youa re saying it is relevant


The only relevant poll is an election, it happened in Feb, FF won the most seats and look to be forming a government. Hurrraaahhhhhh

Edgware

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ireland cannot afford the 6 counties. Simple as that. Just have a look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Northern_Ireland

Leave it where it is. The UK has to pay to keep it running, in reality most of the North(builders etc) are working in the South or in UK anyway. Bringing it in with the Republic would only cripple both economies as we could not afford to pump the money into it that the UK does. The rest work in public sector, no idea what they are doing but we couldn't afford to keep that afloat so we would have mass unemployment

We get hold of the rugby players which is a big bonus.

If it did become part of south another spate of bombing etc would kick off. We would have to deal with those stupid march's.

Who exactly wants a united Ireland? it makes very little difference anymore with the border gone. Plus it would shut down parcel motel :-)

Not sure why we are discussing a United Ireland on a FF thread......but anyway

The Republic can't afford a United Ireland if it has to spend millions defending it from a Loyalist backlash. However there are enough agriculture, tourism, foreigni investment etc there to support the country and have a high standard of living if the different political interests could agree on a way forward.
However I don't think that agreement is there. Just look at the furore caused by one crowd because a band marches down "their" Street once a year or the other crowd start a riot because the Tricolour is attached to a pole on the Queen's Highway