R Kings and other car raffles

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121018923#Comment_121018923

So....... I posted some free postal entries in the same town as one of these company's are based, for a competition with about 2 weeks until closing:

• I took a video showing them being posted, showing that all of the details requested were correctly filled in, that the question was correctly answered, and the handwriting was clearly legible, and that they had the correct postage.
• I also included in the video, a "google search" for "date and time at my location", on another phone, to provide proof of when the video was taken, which provides hard evidence of the "date and time" of posting. This is the exact same method used by most of these company's to verify the date and time that they did their draw, if you have ever watched them live or watched them back later.
• I also posted another postcard, at the same time and along with the competition entries (and shown in the video too), to a private address, to someone in that same town too, as a "tracer". This was to provide evidence of the time taken to reach them and to avoid any ability to claim "maybe the postal service lost them".
• My "tracer" arrived two days later and I have another video using the same method as above, to provide evidence of the date and time of its arrival (as well as it having the Royal Mail's official processing date on it).
• My postal entries have not been added by the company in question and there are still many unallocated entries according to their website and still plenty of time to the closing of the competition.
• I have taken screenshots, to prove the competition hasn't yet "sold out", with verified date and time also and will continue to do this daily, until the competition closes, as well as a daily screenshot of my account with them, showing that my entries haven't been added.
• I also have an email from them confirming I have an account registered with them and again screenshots that confirm the details I filled out on the postal entries match those in my registered account.

The question is, if they don't add them, and therefore deprive me of the opportunity to win the prize, would they have any liability towards me?

I've not asked a solicitor yet, but its an interesting thought, don't you think?

Here's my "layman" thoughts:

• They are clearly in breach of their Terms and Conditions, on their website.....which again, as you might of guessed, I have screenshots of, to verify.
• These Terms and Conditions form a contract between the company and the competition entrants, regardless of which entry method they choose to enter a competition by.
• And if they fail to enter my postal entries, then I will have clearly suffered at least the loss of the stamps and my time, and in theory, the loss of the opportunity to win the prize, caused by their breach of this contract, written by them
• However, my understanding is that normally for a liability to exist, there must be some form of "consideration" i.e. actual money paid or "money's worth" involved. In this case there isn't, as stamps don't legally count as a form of money (I've checked that one...... its actually why they can then be used, under the law, as a method to provide a "free entry route").

So, depending on how "enforceable" this contract is and depending on what my actual loss would be defined as, there may or may not be cause for action.

Any legal experts out there, who care to share a view on this?

I'm not asking for legal advice, as I understand it wouldn't be appropriate to give that on a public forum like this.......more an "indication" of what the legal options available might be in this scenario?

rodge123

Jaysus that’s some serious effort you went to, fair play.

If I remember right, I only took screenshots of mine at the time before posting.

I don’t think they put up the list of entries until 30 minutes before the draw, so you will be able to confirm then if your name is entered using their name search on the list of entries.

I actually emailed then when my two entries we not entered and provided images of my postcards in the email.

They never responded.

I also emailed the gambling commission UK with the details, they sent me a generic response but added maybe trading standards might be interested if terms and conditions broken.

I think you google ITV free entry competitions, they got into trouble a few years back for not entering them. Not sure if same rules apply here.

I finally forwarded on my emails to the guardian newspaper. No response.

I left it at that, life with a family of two kids is too busy to be wasting my time on it.

just note they are UK based so no point reporting to any Irish authorities.

hoodie6029

The dispute is between you and them. There is no enforcement of their rules by the State as they are not regulated entity.

You could take an action against them for damages for breach of contract. If you succeeded, what would a Judge award you for missing out on entering a competition? How do you calculate the loss you suffered by not being entered?

Even then, is there a contract, is free entry just an invitation to treat that they are under no obligation to complete the transaction. They’ve provided a free entry route but are they legally obliged to open the envelope when they receive it?

rodge123

Here’s a link to ITV not entering free entries.

Again, I don’t have a clue if comparable to these types of competitions.

https://adlaw.lewissilkin.com/post/102gdaz/itv-potentially-facing-big-fine-for-ignoring-the-alternative-free-entry-route-for

JackDee123

Having read a bit more on contract law and what is accepted as a form of "consideration", while the stamps on the post card may not to be adequate to form "consideration", the postcards themselves may count as consideration, because they are "personal property" exchanged as part of the contract, and they do have a monetary value.....albeit, very small. Apparently from a legal perspective, the value of the consideration is not important, only that there was something that meets the legal definition of "consideration", given from one party to the other. So, in theory:

• The competition company entered into a contract with me, defined by their terms and conditions.
• I provided consideration, as requested by them, in the form of a postcard sent to them, containing a "set of information", specified by them in the T+C's (and I have strong evidence to support my claim that they received that "consideration")
• I also have strong evidence to support my claim that I performed all obligations I had under that contract (the postcard entries were correctly completed, with matching details on a registered account with them and all before the closing date of the competition).

So, if my postal entries are not added and I don't feature in the randow draw, there would appear, at least from my "layman" perspective, to be a legal case for breach of contract and the losses therein incurred by me, which could be defined as:

• The costs I incurred of stamps, postcards and travel to post.
• The time I spent filling these out and posting them.
• The loss of opportunity, which was promised to me, by them, to win a prize of substantial value.

In summary, from a legal perspective, they appear to be the "promisor" and I am the "promisse", in a legally binding contract for the "promise" of the opportunity to win a prize, by offering consideration, either in terms of a payment made to them on their website, or consideration in the form of a postcard, sent by ordinary post. To not keep that "promise", by not entering my postal entry into the "random draw pool", they will have deprived me of the opportunity promised under the contract and hence will have breached that contract.

Any thoughts or legal experts want to provide an "indication", on this interesting "chain of thought"?

hoodie6029

Based on that logic, which seems sound, the most you could claim for is equivalent of the entry fees and stamps and stationary. Not worth it. Make an interesting article for the Law Society Gazette though.

If that the most these companies stand to lose in theory, I can see why they don’t bother opening free entries.

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028972#Comment_121028972

Interesting......my own "layman" thoughts......

• They are under obligation by the contract establish by their Terms and Conditions, to enter all postal entries received before the closing date, that meet the eligibility criteria, so to not do so, either by deliberate action or even by accident (excepting Force Majeure), would be a breach of this contract.
• Potential losses, as per my post above. You might even be able to add in "emotional distress" or such like, for falsely building your hope up......I don't know, just throwing ideas!

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029017#Comment_121029017

Yeah, sounds like a good comparison, apart from ITV having to answer to OFCOM, which wouldn't apply to these competitions, unless they were broadcasting them on TV or Radio etc, I guess?

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028944#Comment_121028944

You made good efforts too, Rodge...... However, I can go much further, to the "nth degree" in fact, to nail something down....... plenty of free time and no wife, kids nor even a dog to have to worry about! 😊

The Guardian probably weren't too interested as it "wasn't a big enough story" for them, and your evidence could be refuted by the competition company. Whereas, it would be hard to refute mine, and with some of the names involved, it could just be a "big enough" story! 😜

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029463#Comment_121029463

The adverse publicity could be their biggest issue.....that and a potential investigation by the authorities!

JackDee123

And the "value of the lost opportunity".......it could be argued two ways, I'm sure:

• A maximum of the value of the prize that I could have won, if I had of been entered into the competition (call this the "ceiling" value)
• A minimum of (Income generated by the competition / total number of entries received) .......which is basically the average price of a ticket that they achieved (call this the "floor" value)

So, the value of this "element" of any claim, could in theory range from "Average ticket price achieved" to "Value of the Prize Awarded" to the actual winner.

I'm guessing that a pragmatic view for assessing this would be to examine what actually happened in terms of the winning entrant.

• If the winner "won" with having entered with only 1 entry (It does happen), and I could prove that I was deprived of at least one entry, then, it might be appropriate to award damages as the full value of the prize that I could have won.
• Similarly, if the winner "won", having entered with 20 entries, and I could prove that I was deprived of, say 5 entries, then it could seem fair that the compensatory award should be fairly set at 25% of the prize value. Although, you could still argue that any one of my 5 had equal chance of winning, so this 25% value might only serve as an argument to fix a "floor" value, with a "ceiling" still set at the full value of the prize.........

...... I'm sure it would be a very interesting case for a court to decide.......Just more thoughts.

hoodie6029

This is all great in theory but in reality, I don’t think you want to mess with the ‘organisations’ behind these raffles. I don’t think you’d be getting a solicitor’s letter in response to your action…

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121029818#Comment_121029818

Perhaps, but I've never been known to "back away" from anything, due to fear or intimidation. I'm the type of person who'd not give a thief £1, if the option was "give me the pound or I will shoot you", with the loaded gun pointed right at my head. I'd simply say "ok, see you in hell, then I guess". Similarly, if my family was under some sort of threat or intimidation, while unpleasant, it would not deter me in the slightest. I've seen off a few "big scary clowns" in the past, and I'm sure I will have to again in the future......the world is unfortunately populated by many of them. 🤔☺️

mikeecho

@JackDee123 let us know how you get on.

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121030133#Comment_121030133

Will do......there is still time for the company concerned to add in my postal entries. Perhaps they are inundated with postal entries at the minute and just "slow" to process them.......so, I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt, for now......their opportunity to comply with their terms and conditions, runs until the competition officially closes, I guess. After that, if not included in the draw, I obviously have a number of options to look at.

Alkers

They can always say they never received the post entries and you've nothing that proves they did, as unlikely it is that they didn't.

Can they be hand delivered or sent via registered post?

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121028944#Comment_121028944

So.......you guys asked for an update........ I've just been allocated (almost) all of the postal entries that I sent in to the company in question, plus they have removed the stipulation that they had on their website that "only 1 entry per household" was permitted, via the postal route, where the prize is a "house, villa or flat".

I now have well over £1,000 worth of competition tickets, for the price of a few books of 1st class stamps, some postcards ("The Consideration", perhaps!), some black ink and a few hours of my time in completing, posting and "video logging" to create a robust audit trail!!!!

Mind you, it might have had something to do with the 2 Trust Pilot reviews that I gave them, stating they were possibly breaching ASA Cap Codes by imposing this restriction on entries, via the postal route and the fact that I pointed out that they had confirmed they were applying this restriction in their reply to another Trust Pilot review (for all to see, including the ASA, if they were to be investigated).

I made it very clear that for them to continue to run their competition with this restriction in place (particularly now that it had been brought to their attention in a public forum which they proactively monitor), would be to "show flagrant disregard for the ASA and its codes".

The ASA can't impose fines or "send you to Jail", but they can "set" Trading Standards on your company. Also and maybe even more importantly, they can and do, run Ad's in Google Paid search, on FaceBook etc, to appear alongside your own Ad's, warning "that your company engages in marketing that is unethical and breach's the ASA Industry Advertising Codes of practice". They can also notify advertising channels and Media outlets that you are breaching their Codes and warn that they should not accept your advertisements ........essentially they will "hound you" and get you blacklisted from advertising and media channels......without that, these businesses are "dead in the water"!

Maybe they even saw the posts on here.........who know's, but I'd be sure that the company in question will process (the majority) of postal entries that I make in the future........as regards to ones sent by anyone else..........perhaps employing the methods I have, could work for you, if you have difficulties with getting your Postal entries accepted with any of these company's in the future!

rodge123

I only see one recent bad review on trust pilot about them and nothing mentioned about ASA on it?

Did you email them or contact via Facebook messenger?

I might start sending in postcards again and email them with similar info you sent!

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121040644#Comment_121040644

Can't be hand delivered and registered post "makes it not a free entry", so under current laws it appears they can disregard those as "breaching terms and conditions of the Postal route for free entry".

Read back on my previous posts......there is a way to create "extremely robust" evidence that your postal entries were correctly completed, posted in time, were legible and received in time before the closing of a competition. It just takes a bit of extra time and effort.

Interestingly, I also found a quirk in UK law, called the "Postal Rule" (Google it), which basically means if you can prove you definitely posted your acceptance of a contract, then the other party to that contract is bound by that contract, regardless of it ever reaching them! I'm not sure if there's a similar law that applies in NI or Ireland, but its definitely an interesting one!

JackDee123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121049051#Comment_121049051

Did you get the DM, Rodge?

iColdFusion

Rkings seems to be on the ropes these days, anyone know whats happening in the background since they got banned from facebook?

Seems to have been going downhill since they got bought out, odds have been getting worse and worse and they have tried to milk people with the stupid odds instant win draws where hardly any of the top prizes get won, people don't enjoy entering instant loss competitions I guess 😄

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121431675#Comment_121431675

Backlash against gambling in general will hit these fringe operators first i’d say.

Things are getting tight again, people don’t have €50 to blow on a chance to win a used car that’s been polished and photographed well.

Meeoow

Were they banned from Facebook? I hadn't noticed. I agree though, they seem to have gone downhill lately.

celt262

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121451045#Comment_121451045

There was a bit of craic the other night with a car draw number 254566 (for example) was the winning number and they called out the wrong name so some lad though he had won a car but they then had to correct it and give it to the rightful winner.

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452046#Comment_121452046

Did that happen again? Happened with another crowd a couple of years ago raffling a tractor. They read out the ‘winner’s name’ which wasn’t even close to the one on screen. Blamed it on the software but that didn’t explain how they’d gotten the name that they’d read out. Complete fix.

iColdFusion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121452046#Comment_121452046

They seem to be up to all sorts of shenanigans these days, they launched a "win 500quid a week for 4 years" comp recently and it said originally you could also take 100k immediately instead but now after people have bought loads of tickets they have removed the 100k option, sneaky!

Not sure id want to be banking on them still being in business in 4 years time either...

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121498174#Comment_121498174

Like bookies, casinos etc the only people getting rich out of these competitions are those running them.

With JP McManus’s donation of his money to GAA clubs maybe we’ll see an end to ‘Win this luxury house in Tarmonbarry’ competitions for the clubs.

Damokc

Got it from "a" horse's mouth in Letterkenny that some draws are used to get rid of cars they can't sell....keeps an even flow of stock......

Damokc

Pristine have a Facebook page called pristinecarsIreland. But the link is to their normal UK website. Which states....

5.Eligibility

5.1 The competition is only open to all residents in the United Kingdom aged 18 years or over...

Now a quick look at their pages will see hundreds of ROI residents tagging friends and family in the competitions. I would presume they get hundreds if not thousands of entries from the Rep every week.

A look over their winners will show only a couple of ROI winners but for small prizes. Impact gun, 1k and a phone.

All the rest are indeed UK residents.

Seems a bit underhand with the Facebook name stating Ireland.

Gonna have a look at all the rest of these crowds T&Cs.

I'll be back