I want a shutdown NOW!

False Prophet

rossie1977 wrote: »

A full lockdown is inevitable once our ICUs reach full capacity

No, that would be 2 weeks too late

Lollipops23

Most medical folks are saying going for a walk is fine as long as you practice social distancing etc. We went up to the Phoenix Park yesterday and there were plenty of people around, but all staying at a good distance from each other. People can't stay indoors indefinitely.

growleaves

It is precisely for knobheads with that kind of viewpoint that a lockdown is required!

If you need evidence just look at the comments about "civil rights" and being part of the low risk group.

I thought the lockdown was required for people who wouldn't social distance properly?

You're showing how confused you are here. A person posting about concern for civil liberties may be acting more responsibly in not spreading germs than you. So the 'lockdown' has no direct relevance to stopping such people in any way. Its not going to be a lockdown on opinions you don't like.

Kivaro

I love this little chart, because it is so simple.
It shows what happened over 100 years ago when one city (St. Louis) decided to implement social distancing correctly during the Spanish flu and one city (Philadelphia) did not:

Dohnjoe

Nermal wrote: »

Nobody's forcing you to go out. You are free to shutdown by yourself. The rest of us may have a different risk tolerance to you, and can make our own decisions.

If we were all simultaneously capable of being responsible, sure.

But we aren't. This is a pandemic, it's a highly contagious disease that spreads rapidly through human contact. The fatality rate is at least 10 times higher than seasonal flu. There are selfish people and ignorant people who don't grasp this notion. They put others at risk through their own self-interested behavior. These types of people make comments like yours.

If pig-headed people are going to put me or my family or my friends or colleagues at risk due to their own illogical selfish behavior, I have zero issue with national guidelines being enforced by the law if necessary.

CaoinDory

growleaves wrote: »

You're showing how confused you are here. A person posting about concern for civil liberties may be acting more responsibly in not spreading germs that you. So the 'lockdown' has no direct relevance to stopping such people in any way. Its not going to be a lockdown on opinions you don't like.

First off you do realise you are talking to 2 different people dont you?
I was the one who was talking about "civil rights" and the post I was referring to was this nonsense!

Lesnar Defender wrote: »

I for one, do not want my civil liberties removed.

And this

Nermal wrote: »

Nobody's forcing you to go out. You are free to shutdown by yourself. The rest of us may have a different risk tolerance to you, and can make our own decisions.

From the beginning I have said that I am more in support for social Distancing than a lock down as it would allow our country to continue. But that due to... others... like the above posts and people I have seen blatently ignoring the social distancing rules, I fear a lockdown may be the only way to get the seriousness of this virus across.

chicorytip

Lollipops23 wrote: »

Most medical folks are saying going for a walk is fine as long as you practice social distancing etc. We went up to the Phoenix Park yesterday and there were plenty of people around, but all staying at a good distance from each other. People can't stay indoors indefinitely.

How would people be monitored in a lockdown situation? How will people apply for permission to leave their homes and to whom? Their local Gardai? Under what circumstances would it be deemed safe to allow (restricted) movement to recommence?The implementation of and logistics surrounding such a lockdown would appear to be challenging, to say the least.

growleaves

First off you do realise you are talking to 2 different people dont you?
I was the one who was talking about "civil rights" and the post I was referring to was this nonsense!

Oh. Sorry

CaoinDory

Dohnjoe wrote: »

If we were all simultaneously capable of being responsible, sure.

But we aren't. This is a pandemic, it's a highly contagious disease that spreads rapidly through human contact. The fatality rate is at least 10 times higher than seasonal flu. There are selfish people and ignorant people who don't grasp this notion. They put others at risk through their own self-interested behavior. These types of people make comments like yours.

If pig-headed people are going to put me or my family or my friends or colleagues at risk due to their own illogical selfish behavior, I have zero issue with national guidelines being enforced by the law if necessary.

Exactly!!!!

Larbre34

Kivaro wrote: »

I love this little chart, because it is so simple.
It shows what happened over 100 years ago when one city (St. Louis) decided to implement social distancing correctly during the Spanish flu and one city (Philadelphia) did not:

Thats grand. The way Ireland's numbers are coming out each day, the percentage increase is dropping and we are 'flattening the curve'. Lets hope it continues.

A full lockdown of 5 million people with just 30,000 police, army and civil defence (including reserves) is impossible and so pointless.

All the idea of it would do is add to public anxiety, isolation, loneliness and fear and create an environment for anti social behaviour, burglaries, commercial break-ins etc.

As the advice goes, treat your own behaviour as if you have the virus and act accordingly towards others and you'll be fine.

NO LOCKDOWN NOW!

CaoinDory

Lollipops23 wrote: »

People can't stay indoors indefinitely.

This post intrigues me. What about the people who have such severe immun deficincys that they live their lives in a buuble within a house? Those people who have such severe conditions that they are forced to live their lives in a hospital bed and never go outside?

People can stay indoors indefinitely if they have to.
I think that statement is unfair to some.

Larbre34

CaoinDory wrote: »

This post intrigues me. What about the people who have such severe immun deficincys that they live their lives in a buuble within a house? Those people who have such severe conditions that they are forced to live their lives in a hospital bed and never go outside?

People can stay indoors indefinitely if they have to.
I think that statement is unfair to some.

Come off it, its as damaging to their mental health as it is for anyone else that would be subjected to it now.

Anyone with an elderly parent or whatever, whose health has deteriorated and they have become home or bed bound will tell you the damage it has done to their sense of self and desire for life. In fact it often hastens death.

CaoinDory

Larbre34 wrote: »

Come off it, its as damaging to their mental health as it is for anyone else that would be subjected to it now.

Anyone with an elderly parent or whatever, whose health has deteriorated and they have become home or bed bound will tell you the damage it has done to their sense of self and desire for life. In fact it often hastens death.

I never said anything to the contrary. Mental health is taking a big hit at the moment. Which I know personally!

I am merely addressing your statement that said "people can't stay inside indefinitely". They can. They shouldnt have to and its not the best mental health wise and, again, I am still favouring correct use of social distancing... but if needs must, people CAN stay inside indefinitely. Its just not ideal.

nthclare

CaoinDory wrote: »

This post intrigues me. What about the people who have such severe immun deficincys that they live their lives in a buuble within a house? Those people who have such severe conditions that they are forced to live their lives in a hospital bed and never go outside?

People can stay indoors indefinitely if they have to.
I think that statement is unfair to some.

I think everyone could do with 20 minutes of sunshine a day.
Its easier for me to accept a lockdown as over the wall of my house I've square miles of limestone, valleys and hazel words.
I cannot see the establishment driving around these areas of Ireland checking up on people to be honest.
A 5 minute walk and im in the thick of it, would I shut myself in for a few weeks, I could for the greater good in solidarity with my fellow human beings.
As I have all the time in the world to get back out there.

Id do it if it helps for everyone, because there's no point in being a sanctimonious pr1cK boasting about my freedom while others are held inside for weeks.

So I'm accepting this could happen.

martingriff

Skyfloater wrote: »

The people who are calling for a lockdown "for however long it takes" should reacquaint themselves with the devastation caused by the Great Depression of the 1930's, the millions of lives foreshortened by malnutrition, hypothermia and lack of basic healthcare. Far, far more than covid 19 will ever claim.
On another point, the median age of the deceased in Italy is 80.5! That's a fine age to last for. What do some people here think happens when you hit your eighty's?
What happens is, you get sick and then you die. Why is that such a shock for some people.

Well for my grandmother another 23 years and all but last 5 years was in better shape then me at times. My mother did not reach 80 she died of a tumour and watching her die over the last few months was torture so EXCUSE ME AND OTHERS who do not want to see there loved ones die so you can go out and about and go on your fabulous holiday. If you show you can follow the advice given then we can all get through this and no lockdown would be needed. But unfortunately some lockdown will be needed because of people who don't want to see short term pain for health for everyone.

Also are you forgetting those who are not old but have underlying health issue f£$% them also I suppose

osarusan

For me, one key benefit to a 2-week lockdown is that there are no more (or much much fewer) 'unaware positives' who think they are fine but are actually spreading the virus as they go about their business.

That makes things so much more manageable from then on.

CaoinDory

nthclare wrote: »

I could for the greater good in solidarity with my fellow human beings.
As I have all the time in the world to get back out there.

Id do it if it helps for everyone, because there's no point in being a sanctimonious pr1cK boasting about my freedom while others are held inside for weeks.

So I'm accepting this could happen.

Absolutely agree. This is not something I want to do. This is not something I should have to do. But thanks to certain people, I may very well have to.

And I will. (Probably not without complaint as my anxiety and depression will fight against me every step of the way) because it has to be done.

As for my comment on people who DO have to live their lives like this... I think it is unfair to claim that it "is impossible". Its not ideal and NEVER wanted... but it is possible as an inspiring few have proven. I think its unfair to make such a statement when, once this is over, we can escape to the outside world. Some cant.

Skyfloater

martingriff wrote: »

Well for my grandmother another 23 years and all but last 5 years was in better shape then me at times. My mother did not reach 80 she died of a tumour and watching her die over the last few months was torture so EXCUSE ME AND OTHERS who do not want to see there loved ones die so you can go out and about and go on your fabulous holiday. If you show you can follow the advice given then we can all get through this and no lockdown would be needed. But unfortunately some lockdown will be needed because of people who don't want to see short term pain for health for everyone.

Also are you forgetting those who are not old but have underlying health issue f£$% them also I suppose

Good for her, but it doesn't change the fact the median lifespan in Ireland 84 and 80.5.

Sam the Sham

Skyfloater wrote: »

Good for her, but it doesn't change the fact the median lifespan in Ireland 84 and 80.5.

Even if that’s true, it’s irrelevant. The median lie expectancy of someone 80 years old is not 84.

jam_mac_jam

Sam the Sham wrote: »

Even if that’s true, it’s irrelevant. The median lie expectancy of someone 80 years old is not 84.

What about the people in their 60s or 50s who are dying? The younger people with underlying issues?

DeVore

This is very serious for everyone. Some more than others but if you watch the stuff coming out of Italy (and now other locations) its quite clear that this is a danger to all.

Young people recover but some require critical care or even ventilation. When those things arent available (because they are all already gone to other young people for example) the mortality rate sky rockets for the young. This isnt just about "old people" and "sick people". It will impact everyone. And that shouldnt matter to you anyway....

McCrack

DeVore wrote: »

This is very serious for everyone. Some more than others but if you watch the stuff coming out of Italy (and now other locations) its quite clear that this is a danger to all.

Young people recover but some require critical care or even ventilation. When those things arent available (because they are all already gone to other young people for example) the mortality rate sky rockets for the young. This isnt just about "old people" and "sick people". It will impact everyone. And that shouldnt matter to you anyway....

Stop scaremongering, the vast majority 94 to 98 percent of contracted cases are not fatal, and that includes young, immunosuppressed and elderly people

SuperRabbit

McCrack wrote: »

Stop scaremongering, the vast majority 94 to 98 percent of contracted cases are not fatal, and that includes young, immunosuppressed and elderly people

YOU are scaremongering by repeating the truth. The truth is scary.
94% is a low survival rate. If 6% of people who get this die millions and millions and millions of people will die. The Spanish flu killed only 2% and killed 50-100 million people

The death rate for people who are tested in Italy right now is 9%

BoatMad

I was out on several Wexford beaches over the weekend , I didn’t see any massive crowds and people stayed many metres away from each other , the noticeable exception being a few young people.

I was in homestore, very good social distancing and controls in the shop, today I was on the beach , and then shopping in Dunne’s and Tesco, again good social distancing and procedures seems to be working , overall very quite ( a handful on a huge beach )

To me , while a few idiots are clearly not co-operating , in general , it’s working quite well. I don’t think it warrants much extra controls , other then shutting a few major open areas within reach of Dublin. ( or lock Dubliners in lol )

Ps; would you mind leaving the odd bag of flour in the shops pleases

YFlyer

thecomedian wrote: »

For how long?

Two months.

SuperRabbit

WHEN WE'RE SCARED WE BAKE

BoatMad

McCrack wrote: »

Stop scaremongering, the vast majority 94 to 98 percent of contracted cases are not fatal, and that includes young, immunosuppressed and elderly people

The evidence is those that recover from any sort of serious bout they can loose 10-30% lung function permanently

This is not some form of mild flu

is_that_so

BoatMad wrote: »

The evidence is those that recover from any sort of serious bout they can loose 10-30% lung function permanently

This is not some form of mild flu

Not evidence just a possibility from a very small study and cardio exercise may resolve it.

https://www.sciencealert.com/even-those-who-recover-from-corona-can-be-left-gasping-for-breath-afterwards

YFlyer

McCrack wrote: »

Stop scaremongering, the vast majority 94 to 98 percent of contracted cases are not fatal, and that includes young, immunosuppressed and elderly people

Huh

Stacksofwacks

Whats the point closing down parks and public places. People tend to be more spread out in those places thus its harder for the virus to spread. Clusters of people should be broken up though or told to move along.

thecomedian

YFlyer wrote: »

Two months.

And what after the 2 months?
Keep the island locked down?
Do we put a hard border between us and the North?

What happens when it comes back into the country again

Sam the Sham

UK now on lockdown. Time for us to do the same.

Johnson's address tonight:

Good evening,

The coronavirus is the biggest threat this country has faced for decades – and this country is not alone.

All over the world we are seeing the devastating impact of this invisible killer

And so tonight I want to update you on the latest steps we are taking to fight the disease and what you can do to help.

And I want to begin by reminding you why the UK has been taking the approach that we have.

Without a huge national effort to halt the growth of this virus, there will come a moment when no health service in the world could possibly cope; because there won’t be enough ventilators, enough intensive care beds, enough doctors and nurses.

And as we have seen elsewhere, in other countries that also have fantastic health care systems, that is the moment of real danger.

To put it simply, if too many people become seriously unwell at one time, the NHS will be unable to handle it – meaning more people are likely to die, not just from coronavirus but from other illnesses as well.

So it’s vital to slow the spread of the disease.

Because that is the way we reduce the number of people needing hospital treatment at any one time, so we can protect the NHS’s ability to cope – and save more lives.

And that’s why we have been asking people to stay at home during this pandemic.

And though huge numbers are complying – and I thank you all – the time has now come for us all to do more.

From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction – you must stay at home.

Because the critical thing we must do is stop the disease spreading between households.

That is why people will only be allowed to leave their home for the following very limited purposes:

shopping for basic necessities, as infrequently as possible

one form of exercise a day – for example a run, walk, or cycle – alone or with members of your household;

any medical need, to provide care or to help a vulnerable person; and

travelling to and from work, but only where this is absolutely necessary and cannot be done from home.

That’s all – these are the only reasons you should leave your home.

You should not be meeting friends. If your friends ask you to meet, you should say No.

You should not be meeting family members who do not live in your home.

You should not be going shopping except for essentials like food and medicine – and you should do this as little as you can. And use food delivery services where you can.

If you don’t follow the rules the police will have the powers to enforce them, including through fines and dispersing gatherings.

To ensure compliance with the Government’s instruction to stay at home, we will immediately:

close all shops selling non-essential goods, including clothing and electronic stores and other premises including libraries, playgrounds and outdoor gyms, and places of worship;

we will stop all gatherings of more than two people in public – excluding people you live with;

and we’ll stop all social events, including weddings, baptisms and other ceremonies, but excluding funerals.

Parks will remain open for exercise but gatherings will be dispersed.

No prime minister wants to enact measures like this.

I know the damage that this disruption is doing and will do to people’s lives, to their businesses and to their jobs.

And that’s why we have produced a huge and unprecedented programme of support both for workers and for business.

And I can assure you that we will keep these restrictions under constant review. We will look again in three weeks, and relax them if the evidence shows we are able to.

But at present there are just no easy options. The way ahead is hard, and it is still true that many lives will sadly be lost.

And yet it is also true that there is a clear way through.

Day by day we are strengthening our amazing NHS with 7500 former clinicians now coming back to the service.

With the time you buy – by simply staying at home – we are increasing our stocks of equipment.

We are accelerating our search for treatments.

We are pioneering work on a vaccine.

And we are buying millions of testing kits that will enable us to turn the tide on this invisible killer.

I want to thank everyone who is working flat out to beat the virus.

Everyone from the supermarket staff to the transport workers to the carers to the nurses and doctors on the frontline.

But in this fight we can be in no doubt that each and every one of us is directly enlisted.

Each and every one of us is now obliged to join together.

To halt the spread of this disease.

To protect our NHS and to save many many thousands of lives.

And I know that as they have in the past so many times.

The people of this country will rise to that challenge.

And we will come through it stronger than ever.

We will beat the coronavirus and we will beat it together.

And therefore I urge you at this moment of national emergency to stay at home, protect our NHS and save lives.

Thank you.

Scuid Mhór

Sam the Sham wrote: »

UK now on lockdown. Time for us to do the same.

I imagine this might nudge our policy in the same direction sooner rather than later...

Stacksofwacks

Sam the Sham wrote: »

UK now on lockdown. Time for us to do the same.

Johnson's address tonight:

No we should not. UK is a far more densely populated country than we are.

thecomedian

Sam the Sham wrote: »

UK now on lockdown. Time for us to do the same.

Not really. It’s a half lockdown.
They can still go out for essentials, once a day for exercise and to go to work.

Nermal

BoatMad wrote: »

The evidence is those that recover from any sort of serious bout they can loose 10-30% lung function permanently

super_furry

Sam the Sham wrote: »

UK now on lockdown. Time for us to do the same.
:

Nope. The ****ed things up so much at the start from Cheltenham to leaving the pubs open to keeping the tube running, that they're on a whole different curve to us.

And even now they can still work.

It's not a lockdown, they're closing the high street.

Stacksofwacks

If there is going to be lockdowns here then it should be targeted only to hotspot areas, not nationwide

Sam the Sham

thecomedian wrote: »

Not really. It’s a half lockdown.
They can still go out for essentials, once a day for exercise and to go to work.

Is that not similar to other lockdowns (Italy, Spain, France). The only difference is the exercise bit.

fryup

Nermal wrote: »

Nobody's forcing you to go out. You are free to shutdown by yourself. The rest of us may have a different risk tolerance to you, and can make our own decisions.

as i said in another thread...


i've no problem with a family being in close proximity esp a family from the same household > its unavoidable.........but its aquanitices & strangers having group chats that's annoying....there's plenty of remote spots in this country that people can find, everyone needs exercise after all

BoatMad

Nermal wrote: »

There are several references , here’s one
In some patients, lung function could decline by about 20 to 30% after recovery," says Dr. Owen Tsang Tak-yin, medical director of the Infectious Diseases Centre at Princess Margaret Hospital in Hong Kong.
Computer tomography have shown fluid- or debris-filled sacs in the lungs, which may get progressively worse as the illness develops.
The findings from Hong Kong confirm very early investigations from Wuhan in early February 2020. In a recent study, scientists from Zhongnam Hospital of Wuhan University analyzed 140 lung scans of COVID-19 patients and found a ground glass opacity in both lungs of each patient.
Suspected pulmonary fibrosis
Further investigations of the recovered COVID-19 patients must now be conducted to show whether they have developed pulmonary fibrosis — scarring in the lungs. Over time, the scar tissue can destroy the normal lung and make it hard for oxygen to get into the blood. Low oxygen levels (and the stiff scar tissue itself) can cause shortness of breath, particularly during physical exertion.
Lung fibrosis cannot be cured because the scarred changes in the lung tissue do not regress. But the progression of pulmonary fibrosis can be delayed and sometimes even stopped if detected in time.

Note this is a bigger study then the 12 patients in hong Kong

But hey , post another silly meme

Totally Tropical

Lesnar Defender wrote: »

I for one, do not want my civil liberties removed.

You won't have much civil liberties, when you're gasping for air on a ventilator machine.:rolleyes:

BoatMad

Totally Tropical wrote: »

You won't have much civil liberties, when you're gasping for air on a ventilator machine.:rolleyes:

I do think there is a balance to be struck in a democratic society , it’s not all black and white

Augme

Totally Tropical wrote: »

You won't have much civil liberties, when you're gasping for air on a ventilator machine.:rolleyes:

Unless they are old or already sick then that's extremely unlikely to happen though.

Totally Tropical

BoatMad wrote: »

I do think there is a balance to be struck in a democratic society , it’s not all black and white

The spread of this disease needs to be stopped at all costs.If people are still oblivious, as to how serious this is, then i don't know what to say.As they say, you'll learn the easy way, or you'll learn the hard way.

Totally Tropical

Augme wrote: »

Unless they are old or already sick then that's extremely unlikely to happen though.

Ah sure that's grand, my friends 70 year old parents can die so.:rolleyes:

BoatMad

Totally Tropical wrote: »

The spread of this disease needs to be stopped at all costs.If people are still oblivious, as to how serious this is, then i don't know what to say.As they say, you'll learn the easy way, or you'll learn the hard way.

I’ll thread a fine line here , ultimately a balance between freedoms and restrictions has to be struck and that balance involves balancing the death rate. We do this every day on the roads , we balance a public good against a quantifiable risk of death. This virus may be with us for a long time, we will have to grapple with the same issues.

At my age , I’m well aware how serious it is

a complete lockdown isnt practical in the long term , ie more then a few weeks.

The_Brood

If we go under shutdown because of those idiots - make no mistake it about - they MUST be hunted down and fines severely. Cameras, photos evidence, anything you can use - it's a small enough country, people will be found - fine the everloving hell out of them.

Absolutely absurd if people suggest they go scot free while we all have to pay with a lockdown?

growleaves

I’ll thread a fine line here , ultimately a balance between freedoms and restrictions has to be struck and that balance involves balancing the death rate. We do this every day on the roads , we balance a public good against a quantifiable risk of death. This virus may be with us for a long time, we will have to grapple with the same issues.

a complete lockdown isnt practical in the long term , ie more then a few weeks.

Upper respiratory tract infections in the elderly and sick are probably the commonest acute cause of death in the world.

For instance over 60,000 Americans died of the flu in the 2019 flu season and over 80,000 Americans died of the flu during the 2018 flu season. That's in one country.

BoatMad

The_Brood wrote: »

If we go under shutdown because of those idiots - make no mistake it about - they MUST be hunted down and fines severely. Cameras, photos evidence, anything you can use - it's a small enough country, people will be found - fine the everloving hell out of them.

Absolutely absurd if people suggest they go scot free while we all have to pay with a lockdown?

Agree , police the people breaking the current rules
In Brussels the police are using drones to break up groups in the parks etc

The solution isn’t making the rest of us pay because a few fools can adopt a different attitude