Hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin combination being touted as a Corona treatment

silverharp

https://twitter.com/NBSaphierMD/status/1245671458505924608

ionadnapokot

FOX

silverharp

ionadnapokot wrote: »

FOX

:rolleyes: , you arent really on this we are all in this together are we? The guy is still a Dr and an expert in this area.

bo0li5eumx12kp

silverharp wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NBSaphierMD/status/1245671458505924608

Perhaps the issue was the small French sample means its success has hard to take seriously.

A couple weeks has passed since that was conducted, one would imagine this information would be more consolidated at this point.

Well - I guess this report may be the first sign of that consolidation.

Cheers for posting.

Of the several combination of viral suppressants etc listed, between the HIV drugs especially, not least of all due to their cost which would make accessibility limited to many you'd imagine - this combo being generic, cost effective, widely available and growing in validated efficacy - I guess a glimmer that goes beyond social distancing being the exclusive remit thus far.

is_that_so

silverharp wrote: »

:rolleyes: , you arent really on this we are all in this together are we? The guy is still a Dr and an expert in this area.

He might be right but the numbers are still too small. There is a reason why they do all these large clinical trials on possible drugs.

Sweet.Science

silverharp wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NBSaphierMD/status/1245671458505924608

This is the great hope. When the clinical trials are complete it will be in use everywhere

bo0li5eumx12kp

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1238846478787006466

4 initial drug combos thought to yield promise.

Anti-virals, anti-inflammatories.

Curiously although hydroxychloroquine is listed, its combination with azithromycin was not.

Perhaps that small French trial holds more promise than sceptics initially considered?

plodder

ionadnapokot wrote: »

FOX

Forget Fox, and focus on the doctor and what he is saying.

He doesn't mention the number of patients on the drug regimen, as compared with the 20 who needed intubation, but he said statistically - point zero, zero, zero something, which is far from scientific ... tailored for the viewers maybe.

He says he can't see any real reason for selection bias, but the initial 20 patients could have been much more severe, and the following ones less so due to knowing more about the condition and presenting sooner maybe. Who knows? We still have to wait for properly conducted trials.

But, it's hopeful news at least.

Jurgen Klopp

They said the other day they are using 1,100 New York patient as a trial for it. They said they would have initial results after 3 days instead of 3 months that it would usually take due to the extreme circumstances,I think it's today or tomorrow the FDA or CDC will be rating the hydroxchloroquine

is_that_so

plodder wrote: »

Forget Fox, and focus on the doctor and what he is saying.

He doesn't mention the number of patients on the drug regimen, as compared with the 20 who needed intubation, but he said statistically - point zero, zero, zero something, which is far from scientific ... tailored for the viewers maybe.

He says he can't see any real reason for selection bias, but the initial 20 patients could have been much more severe, and the following ones less so due to knowing more about the condition and presenting sooner maybe. Who knows? We still have to wait for properly conducted trials.

But, it's hopeful news at least.

It's actually planned to start on a very large scale on all 4 of the most promising drugs.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/who-launches-global-megatrial-four-most-promising-coronavirus-treatments

BanditLuke

silverharp wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NBSaphierMD/status/1245671458505924608

Wonderful news.

plodder

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

They said the other day they are using 1,100 New York patient as a trial for it. They said they would have initial results after 3 days instead of 3 months that it would usually take due to the extreme circumstances,I think it's today or tomorrow the FDA or CDC will be rating the hydroxchloroquine

Hoepfully, it's a truly double-blind trial, with neither the patients nor the administering doctors knowing who is getting the medication. Otherwise, the risk of bias in a crisis like this is huge.

Wibbs

If any treatment protocol reduced even by half those who ended up on a ventilator it would be a total gamechanger. If it were 80% effective it would be a major step in beating this thing worldwide.

PMBC

Wibbs wrote: »

As an aside aren't our bodies incredibly complex and precise. I mean when a deviation of just 500 milliseconds can cause things to go south, that's incredibly finely balanced...... How fantastically effin cool is that?

Yea.
Ive been a big astronomy fan since childhood in the 50s and couldnt get enough of NASA etc. But but but
Recently I came to the conclusion that research on human health, biochemistry, neuroscience would have been a better way forward i.e. for USA to spend THEIR money!! Of course it would have meant the Russians getting there first and that wouldnt do.
Hindsight and all that - sorry of going off topic

odyssey06

Wibbs wrote: »

Recently I came to the conclusion that research on human health, biochemistry, neuroscience would have been a better way forward i.e. for USA to spend THEIR money!! Of course it would have meant the Russians getting there first and that wouldnt do.
Hindsight and all that - sorry of going off topic

Never mean space budget, a lot of 'overseas aid' would be better directed at improving health outcomes, funding drugs and research and vaccines that aren't profitable for private companies... and supplying them globally - so as to benefit all humankind rather than build a better presidential palace for a tinpot dictator. The current crisis may provide a model for that...

begbysback

Outstanding news, just what was needed, a study on a controlled group where the combination was applied to patients before they reached critical stage.

So what happens next, with WHO, FDA etc, do they need to make a formal statement on the treatment?

JP Liz V1

Is UHG and CUH in Ireland trying these drugs on ICU Covid19 patients now?

Arrival

Will we be able to secure enough of these medicines for the country? Or would it be possible for them to even be produced here, if they're generic?

Really hope this doesn't turn out to be false hope!!!

sadie1502

What does happen next?

kaymin

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/hyped-malaria-drug-not-showing-much-effect-at-one-paris-hospital

Hyped Malaria Drug Not Showing Much Effect at One Paris Hospital
Hydroxychloroquine, the malaria medicine that some doctors have been trying as a treatment against Covid-19, hasn’t shown encouraging results so far at France’s Pitie Salpetriere hospital.

“We’ve used it a fair bit because it was one of the hopes,” Eric Caumes, head of infectious diseases at the Paris hospital, said on BFM TV. “But we don’t have the impression that there’s spectacular efficacy. It’s even probably not effective.” Caumes said he would have more formal data around the end of the week.

U.S. President Donald Trump touted the medicine as promising to curb the Covid-19 pandemic, fueling optimism and prompting some hospitals to stockpile it, but there’s no conclusive evidence that it works against the new coronavirus.

Hydroxychloroquine showed promising results in one small study in France, but its methodology has been challenged. In another small trial in China, the drug was no more effective than conventional care.

For now, “we have more studies showing it doesn’t work than studies showing it does,” Caumes said.

Pitie Salpetriere was rated France’s best hospital in a 2020 Newsweek ranking.

Jurgen Klopp

kaymin wrote: »

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/hyped-malaria-drug-not-showing-much-effect-at-one-paris-hospital

Hyped Malaria Drug Not Showing Much Effect at One Paris Hospital
Hydroxychloroquine, the malaria medicine that some doctors have been trying as a treatment against Covid-19, hasn’t shown encouraging results so far at France’s Pitie Salpetriere hospital.

“We’ve used it a fair bit because it was one of the hopes,” Eric Caumes, head of infectious diseases at the Paris hospital, said on BFM TV. “But we don’t have the impression that there’s spectacular efficacy. It’s even probably not effective.” Caumes said he would have more formal data around the end of the week.

U.S. President Donald Trump touted the medicine as promising to curb the Covid-19 pandemic, fueling optimism and prompting some hospitals to stockpile it, but there’s no conclusive evidence that it works against the new coronavirus.

Hydroxychloroquine showed promising results in one small study in France, but its methodology has been challenged. In another small trial in China, the drug was no more effective than conventional care.

For now, “we have more studies showing it doesn’t work than studies showing it does,” Caumes said.

Pitie Salpetriere was rated France’s best hospital in a 2020 Newsweek ranking.

I saw that and yet two other high profile papers run with the following:

"Hydroxychloroquine rated 'most effective therapy' by doctors for coronavirus: Global survey"

https://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/apr/2/hydroxychloroquine-rated-most-effective-therapy-do/

"Malaria Drug Helps Virus Patients Improve, in Small Study"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-malaria.html

Hard to know, the US large scale trials will hopefully give a clear picture

JP Liz V1

Arrival wrote: »

Will we be able to secure enough of these medicines for the country? Or would it be possible for them to even be produced here, if they're generic?

Really hope this doesn't turn out to be false hope!!!

Do any of the companies here produce even generic ones?

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0399077X20300858?via%3Dihub

I don't have much faith in hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combination. Anecdotally and in recent case reports, I am not seeing the efficacy. In fact, it might be leading to more deaths due to increased risk of arrthymias.

It doesn't even make much sense pharmacologically.

plodder

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0399077X20300858?via%3Dihub

I don't have much faith in hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combination. Anecdotally and in recent case reports, I am not seeing the efficacy. In fact, it might be leading to more deaths due to increased risk of arrthymias.

It doesn't even make much sense pharmacologically.

It shows the problem with small, non-controlled samples. You are much more likely to get widely diverging results. Some showing great outcomes, and others the opposite. I notce also in that trial one out of the 11 had to discontinue due to the predicted heart rhythm risk. We're just not going to know the answer until much bigger randomised trials are completed.

begbysback

The conflicting reports seem to be related to the stages of treatment, the treatment of severe cases is reporting little success, however the earlier report stated those who were treated didn't require ICU - this seems to imply that they were not already severe cases.

That latest report seems to be a collection of rather ill patients, with inefficient immune systems, again a sample of 11 is rather low.

Maybe the treatment is just assisting the immune system? And could still be ineffective in certain cases.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0399077X20300858?via%3Dihub

I don't have much faith in hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin combination. Anecdotally and in recent case reports, I am not seeing the efficacy. In fact, it might be leading to more deaths due to increased risk of arrthymias.

It doesn't even make much sense pharmacologically.

Nice find.

Not an encouraging outcome.

As to pharmacology - one being an bacterial suppressant (azithromycin), the other an inflammatory suppressant (hydroxychloroquine).

Azithromycin would presumably assist with secondary tract infections, the latter acting to protect against the large immuno response.

If viral suppressants aren't working so much.... presumably as one patient was HIV positive - lets stay positive until larger trials yields more definitive results.

sadie1502

When are we likely to see results from trials?

kaymin

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-plasma-explain/why-u-s-hospitals-see-promise-in-plasma-from-new-coronavirus-patients-idUSKBN21M0E3

The process involves drawing blood from a donor - in this case someone who has recovered from COVID-19 but is in generally good health and meets other criteria for blood donation - and running it through a machine to extract the plasma. The remaining blood goes back into the donor.

The process takes up to 90 minutes, and plasma from a single donor can be used to treat three or four patients.

In one trial in China, levels of the virus in five seriously ill COVID-19 patients were undetectable after plasma transfusions, according to study results published last week in The Journal of the American Medical Association.

Dr. Timothy Byun, a hematologist/oncologist at St. Joseph Hospital in Orange, California, dosed his first COVID-19 patient on Wednesday. He said the patient was doing better, but it was too early to tell if the therapy was effective.

Before the plasma infusion, Byun’s patient had received multiple treatments, including the malaria drug hydroxychloroquine and the intravenous anti-inflammatory drug Actemra, but his condition still worsened.

dasdog

The company I work for has teamed up the US Government doing data collection. It's actually quite impressive - they developed a platform in a few days with where doctors can register and report treatments and the patients can report their daily symptoms. From phones, PC's, Macs and various platforms with 2-Factor authentication.

I am deeply sceptical about Hydroxychloroquine + ???? being a wonder cure though. It's sponsored by someone who went Hoax > Pandemic > I'll find a cure. And the property developers property developer son in law has been appointed head of the task force.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Eliezer Shrilling Grassland wrote: »

Nice find.

Not an encouraging outcome.

As to pharmacology - one being an bacterial suppressant (azithromycin), the other an inflammatory suppressant (hydroxychloroquine).

Azithromycin would presumably assist with secondary tract infections, the latter acting to protect against the large immuno response.

If viral suppressants aren't working so much.... presumably as one patient was HIV positive - lets stay positive until larger trials yields more definitive results.

My feeling is this

Secondary infections are a problem (underestimated). The azithromycin helps with that.

It's mentioned here that 50% of a study of 191 deaths tested positive for a secondary infection.

If its likely to improve outlook surely it would an effect in those with a secondary infection in place.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/antibiotic-resistance-could-lead-to-more-covid-19-deaths/

By the way on a similar note I read a German article a while back stating that the author believed that one of the reasons for a low German death rate was the high incidence of pneumonia vaccinations leading to a lower rate of secondary infections. Who knows if the author was right.

He didn't have a study behind him so he was essentially just throwing out ideas but given the numbers in the study mentioned above regarding secondary infections he could have something.