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Hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin combination being touted as a Corona treatment

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    #242
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Pure speculation, but heard just today from my sis who lives there that one difference benefiting Germany is the lower rate of antibiotic prescriptions/use by comparison with France.


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    #243
    Jurgen Klopp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,807 ✭✭✭Jurgen Klopp


    mvl wrote: »
    Pure speculation, but heard just today from my sis who lives there that one difference benefiting Germany is the lower rate of antibiotic prescriptions/use by comparison with France.

    Would your sister be in healthcare? Not a dig just wondering cause antibiotics wouldn't touch a virus unless maybe lower use of them means better rates of clearing some sort of secondary infections that may arise from it


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    #244
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Jurgen Klopp wrote: »
    Would your sister be in healthcare? Not a dig just wondering cause antibiotics wouldn't touch a virus unless maybe lower use of them means better rates of clearing some sort of secondary infections that may arise from it

    Think they meant the lower use in Germany in general would imply a more robust immune system, as antibiotics can reduce your immune systems natural capabilities.

    Personally I think the higher death rates may be where the virus gets into nursing homes.


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    #245
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Jurgen Klopp wrote: »
    Germany from day 1 was not counting anyone with an underlying condition who died with c19 unless that's changed and had the numbers added on

    I’ve also heard this too a few times though haven’t seen any concrete evidence, a comparison of daily death rates year on year would show the true %


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    #246
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭plodder


    The Hound Gone Wild wrote: »
    No, it offers nothing in the way of an explanation. You might be able to use this paper as proof of concept to get ethics approval for testing in a mouse model, that's about it.

    Not talking specificly about this paper but in general the quality of research that has been pumped out in the last few months has been embarrassing. In normal circumstances most of it wouldn't make it past the spam filter of some of the journals they're ending up in.
    Fair enough, but I don't entirely agree with your second point. Now more than ever, we need the widest possible dissemination of ideas. If that paper is 80% rubbish but 20% potentially useful to other researchers then in the present circumstances, it's right to publish it. It's understandable that in normal times research papers are rigorously reviewed before being published and that takes time, which we don't have unfortunately. If there are researchers here in this country with good ideas or useful results, then surely it's better to share it now, rather than in six months after dotting all the 'i's and crossing the 't's.


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    #247
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Jurgen Klopp wrote: »
    Germany from day 1 was not counting anyone with an underlying condition who died with c19 unless that's changed and had the numbers added on

    Just noticed Germany’s high deaths yesterday, have they backdated numbers, or were they keeping a large number alive by ventilation, or was it just a bad day?


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    #248
    Hmmzis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭Hmmzis


    begbysback wrote: »
    Just noticed Germany’s high deaths yesterday, have they backdated numbers, or were they keeping a large number alive by ventilation, or was it just a bad day?

    Was reading last week they had the same problem as us here, that sh1te got into nursing homes.


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    #249
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1248971301278158855

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #250
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    silverharp wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1248971301278158855

    Anecdotal evidence. The death rate is still 50% in ICU. Hydroxychloroquine has been in use for over three weeks. It's unlikely that it's use reduces mortality. The only thing that is proven to work is supportive measures.


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    #251
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,607 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    silverharp wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/JamesTodaroMD/status/1248971301278158855

    Professor Trump started all this stuff.

    Fauci, one of the US foremost experts, says (in front of Trump) there is no evidence whatsoever that that drug works.

    But all follow Trump :rolleyes:


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    #252
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,873 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Anecdotal evidence. The death rate is still 50% in ICU. Hydroxychloroquine has been in use for over three weeks. It's unlikely that it's use reduces mortality. The only thing that is proven to work is supportive measures.

    or its too late once you get to ICU

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #253
    Gretas Gonna Get Ya!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭Gretas Gonna Get Ya!


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Professor Trump started all this stuff.

    Fauci, one of the US foremost experts, says (in front of Trump) there is no evidence whatsoever that that drug works.

    But all follow Trump :rolleyes:

    Yeah, and good on Trump for doing so too!

    He was trying to put pressure on people, to make a faster decision on this drug's viability. He got ridiculed for it, but I doubt he gives a cr*p about that.


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    #254
    Arrival
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭Arrival


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Anecdotal evidence. The death rate is still 50% in ICU. Hydroxychloroquine has been in use for over three weeks. It's unlikely that it's use reduces mortality. The only thing that is proven to work is supportive measures.

    It's about treating them with it before they even come close to requiring ICU


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    #255
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Arrival wrote: »
    It's about treating them with it before they even come close to requiring ICU

    It's indicated in people who have moderate to severe COVID-19 who are desaturating. These people are ICU bound. If somebody could actually show me any peer reviewed papers that says H+A definitively works. Please do post them.

    Oh, wait. There isn't any.


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    #256
    Arrival
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭Arrival


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It's indicated in people who have moderate to severe COVID-19 who are desaturating. These people are ICU bound. If somebody could actually show me any peer reviewed papers that says H+A definitively works. Please do post them.

    Oh, wait. There isn't any.

    So not people actually in ICU then, which was what you were talking about in the last post and what I simply pointed out.

    And wow, groundbreaking news there, we definitely didn't know that!

    Also, in your last post you say it's been in use for 3 weeks. Is it common for there to be peer reviewed papers with definitive conclusions in such a short timeframe? I'm genuinely asking, I don't know...


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    #257
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Anecdotal evidence. The death rate is still 50% in ICU. Hydroxychloroquine has been in use for over three weeks. It's unlikely that it's use reduces mortality. The only thing that is proven to work is supportive measures.

    There is a difference here though, he has administered the drug in the nursing home when patients are diagnosed with the virus, before they were unwell enough to go to hospital. Thereby giving the medication time to treat the virus before it does damage.

    Fair play to him, the decision to proceed this way must have weighed heavy on him, it seems he has no doubt saved lives.


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    #258
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    Professor Trump started all this stuff.

    Fauci, one of the US foremost experts, says (in front of Trump) there is no evidence whatsoever that that drug works.

    But all follow Trump :rolleyes:

    It was in use before Trump mentioned anything, and would have been in use if Trump had said nothing, but hey its a Trump bashing bandwagon so everybody on!

    The only bad thing about Trump mentioning this is that there are ego games now between politicians and medical community - Im sure I speak for a lot of people when I say we dont give a sh1t who gets the credit for it, only that if there is already medication in use today which can stop people from dying, then fcuk it at least try it.


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    #259
    Squeaksoutloud
    Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭Squeaksoutloud


    Insteresting figures still coming out of the Mediterranean Infection Foundation (Raoult fame). Make of them what you will:

    Without Hydroxychloroquine / Azithromycin 63 deaths / 4100 cases
    With Hydroxychloroquine / Azithromycin 10 deaths / 2401 cases


    Capture-d%E2%80%99e%CC%81cran-2020-04-11-a%CC%80-10.51.35.png


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    #260
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,438 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Arrival wrote:
    It's about treating them with it before they even come close to requiring ICU

    Exactly. One big thing about drug trials timing. ICU stage is clearly too late to work.

    Hydroxychloroquine demonstrably bars Covid from cell entry.

    I'd expect some positive effect in moderate cases before sepsis or cytokine storm stage.


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    #261
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭plodder


    McGiver wrote: »
    Exactly. One big thing about drug trials timing. ICU stage is clearly too late to work.

    Hydroxychloroquine demonstrably bars Covid from cell entry.

    I'd expect some positive effect in moderate cases before sepsis or cytokine storm stage.
    I've seen some commentary that says the same thing. Some suggestion* that because the drug is seen as having severe side-effects, the doses being offered are too low and it is only being offered to patients who are severely ill where it might help more at an earlier stage.

    * I think it was a qualified doctor saying this, but you can never be sure on the internet.


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    #262
    Hmmzis
    Registered Users Posts: 2,004 ✭✭✭Hmmzis


    Any preliminary results from the WHO drug trial floating around anywhere. My googlefu is coming up empty so far.


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    #263
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,607 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    begbysback wrote: »
    It was in use before Trump mentioned anything, and would have been in use if Trump had said nothing, but hey its a Trump bashing bandwagon so everybody on!

    The only bad thing about Trump mentioning this is that there are ego games now between politicians and medical community - Im sure I speak for a lot of people when I say we dont give a sh1t who gets the credit for it, only that if there is already medication in use today which can stop people from dying, then fcuk it at least try it.

    Did I say it wasn't in use before Trump mentioned it?

    I suppose you just disregard virtually the vast bulk of the medical profession who refuse to talk rubbish on Fox News.

    Idiocracy in action.

    You have no idea how dangerous this myth is to those who think it's some sort of cure and those who depend on the drugs for existing illnesses.

    Every single press conference Fauci shoots this down as ignorant of the facts but the Trump bible thumpers don't have time for experts.


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    #264
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Arrival wrote: »
    So not people actually in ICU then, which was what you were talking about in the last post and what I simply pointed out.

    And wow, groundbreaking news there, we definitely didn't know that!

    Also, in your last post you say it's been in use for 3 weeks. Is it common for there to be peer reviewed papers with definitive conclusions in such a short timeframe? I'm genuinely asking, I don't know...
    There has been case reports of its use in France and China. It's only been used in Ireland for three-ish weeks. Yet again, it would be interesting if there was any large scale studies that suggested that it was effective. I haven't seen any.

    The effect of H+A on QTc and possibility of torsades de pointes probably outweighs any benefit the combo has.

    It's a hail Mary throw and Donald trump is no Aaron Rodgers.


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    #265
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭plodder


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There has been case reports of its use in France and China. It's only been used in Ireland for three-ish weeks. Yet again, it would be interesting if there was any large scale studies that suggested that it was effective. I haven't seen any.
    You haven't seen any yet. Trials are underway. Hopefully, the question will be answered conclusively once they have been completed.
    The effect of H+A on QTc and possibility of torsades de pointes probably outweighs any benefit the combo has.
    Why would that not be the same for the H treatment of Lupus? It has the same side-effects presumably?


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    #266
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    plodder wrote: »

    Why would that not be the same for the H treatment of Lupus? It has the same side-effects presumably?

    Is the dose the same as lupus? I believe that some trials are looking at a multiple of the lupus dose.

    Also a lot of the serious cases of covid 19 have underlying conditions. H is counterindicated and would not be prescribed to lupus sufferers with for example kidney or heart problems because of the side effects. I would be too risky for these people.

    Also h and a are not prescribed together except for the covid 19 trials. If they both have the side effects. It would be worse if taking both.

    If H or H+A work in certain circumstances it will be great because it reduces pressure on the health service but it's not a complete answer even if it works.


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    #267
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,198 ✭✭✭plodder


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Is the dose the same as lupus? I believe that some trials are looking at a multiple of the lupus dose.
    Considering that there is little to no hard data justifying its use yet, you'd expect doctors to be cautious. The Rault experiment used 200mg, three times a day.

    More info at link below:

    https://www.hopkinsguides.com/hopkins/view/Johns_Hopkins_ABX_Guide/540748/all/Hydroxychloroquine
    Also a lot of the serious cases of covid 19 have underlying conditions. H is counterindicated and would not be prescribed to lupus sufferers with for example kidney or heart problems because of the side effects. I would be too risky for these people.

    Also h and a are not prescribed together except for the covid 19 trials. If they both have the side effects. It would be worse if taking both.

    If H or H+A work in certain circumstances it will be great because it reduces pressure on the health service but it's not a complete answer even if it works.
    That was my point. Yes it is counter-indicated for some situations but not others. But, I accept the point about the combination. The effects could possibly be worse.


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    #268
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,647 ✭ [Deleted User]


    plodder wrote: »
    You haven't seen any yet. Trials are underway. Hopefully, the question will be answered conclusively once they have been completed.

    Why would that not be the same for the H treatment of Lupus? It has the same side-effects presumably?

    Hydroxychloroquine has proven efficacy in treating Lupus.

    As an aside, the use of azithromycin in my hospital is to be dropped after the bank holiday.


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    #269
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Democrat who took Hydroxychloraquine and claimed it helped her meets Trump at the White House.


    https://twitter.com/EM_KA_17/status/1250115216769191937

    Rita Wilson (Tom Hanks' Mrs) also took Hydroxychloroquine when she had Coronavirus, and even know she subsequently recovered, she doesn't seem too happy with the drug as apparently it had some nasty side effects:



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    #270
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 8,033 ✭✭✭threeball


    French study out today says there no evidence hydroxychlooquine helps and was shown to have concerning effects on heart rhythm. Well done Trump ya clown.


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    #271
    ozmo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭ozmo


    threeball wrote: »
    French study out today says there no evidence hydroxychlooquine helps..... Well done Trump ya clown.

    Im wondering if the fact its so cheap compared to the huge profits and secure patents of the alternatives (still not proven either) plus a huge desire by everyone to prove Trump wrong has put more emphasis on finding and reporting issues with this treatment.

    “Roll it back”



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